China Develops Domestic EUV Tool, ASML Monopoly in Trouble

[remekra]

Yes, the example is exactly about stolen IP. When trolling, at least make it seem related to a previous part of the discussion, if not to the EUV topic at all. I have memories of very large parking lots with unsold cars lying around in Western countries throughout stages of their history, including the US. You see, I can digress too.


Yes, official sources also receive orders to publish propaganda and also seek for more clicks.

There is no source in this world that would make you say "yes, China is in fact stealing IPs, I was wrong" so why bother?
I hope you are at least getting paid. Because if you are so delusional for free then it's just sad.

 

[ZoneDymo]

good

 

[TumbleGeorge]

There is no source in this world that would make you say "yes, China is in fact stealing IPs, I was wrong" so why bother?
I hope you are at least getting paid. Because if you are so delusional for free then it's just sad.

I know that have not source with facts.
The hacker news bite deep.

 

[boidsonly]

It's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.

Between the West outsourcing its IP for cheap parts/labor and China's IP theft, they did not have to do much in the way of work.

 

[csendesmark]

I believe when I see....

 

[Kasy21]

looking at the diagram what the chinese propose looks like a much more simpler way of generation EUV light, instead of 2 lasers timing perfecly to hit a single drop of tin, it is creating a EUV explosion with the tin in a static position and caching the light, I don't think that this is unfisable at all, I bet ASML could do this right now this way and make the machines a lot less complicated.

 

[Crackong]

Yes, official sources also receive orders to publish propaganda and also seek for more clicks.

So if 'official sources also receive orders to publish propaganda' is true,
It makes your previous arguments irrelevent.

Because official CCP sources also receive orders to publish propaganda.

Below is a picture of the CCP official (Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs of China) claiming they did not steal, did not rob, did not lie on their achievements.

So
If 'official sources also receive orders to publish propaganda' is true, then........THEY DID, and your previous arguments are irrelevent.
and,
If 'official sources also receive orders to publish propaganda' isn't true, then you just lied.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

Because official CCP sources also receive orders to publish propaganda.

Surprise!?

It makes your previous arguments irrelevent.

My previous arguments about what? I publishing only my observation of how quickly the anti-China political trolls started doing their things including several new(?) accounts, probably registered for just that purpose. I laughed a lot when one troll asked me how much I earn from what I do. And all I've done is interfere with their earnings by making fun of them.

 

[Crackong]

Btw,
From the picture in the OP, that translates to EUV lithography objective lens mounting interferometer.
It is one part of a machine of an assembly line of manufacturing the lens for EUV lithography.
It is NOT an EUV tool at all.
It is a tool to make one of the tools that goes into the actual EUV tool.

And ASML don't even make interferometer.
Companies like Canon and Ushio made these and supply to various tool manufacturers.

It is like claiming you are able to manufacture a whole car but the only thing you showed us is a machine for making brake handles.
Yes it is an part of the car, but No that's not the whole car and it doesn't make you a car manufacturer.

 

[watco]

Might be an oven for Lays or Croky chips.
Moreover, should they ever succeed, no Western country and certainly not TSMC (Taiwan) will install such a machine.
Seems to me just influencing public opinion of "look we can do all that here too".

In comparison, ASML's newest machine is a beast of fourteen meters long.

Onder de motorkap van de nieuwste ASML-machine

ASML's nieuwste 14m lange machine, kost €350m en is cruciaal voor geavanceerde computerchips. Wat doet het 'High NA' EUV-systeem en hoe functioneert het?

deingenieur.nl

 

[ngotiendat]

cmon china you can do it
I'm sick of that monopoly

 

[SZ-Eire]

5 nm or less chips are just a hype invented by the you know, US. They are particularly waste of money and effort. 28 nm chips are sufficient for most electronics we use daily. And in military technology, a smaller chip makes even less impact.

 

[Dr. Dro]

5 nm or less chips are just a hype invented by the you know, US. They are particularly waste of money and effort. 28 nm chips are sufficient for most electronics we use daily. And in military technology, a smaller chip makes even less impact.

I fail to see the relevance of this? But not really, no. If you were to build a processor like say, a i9-13900K on 28 nm... probably not even doable.

 

[ScaLibBDP]

Using 193 nm (ArF) wavelength in semiconductor patterning, transistors can be as small as 10 nm. This corresponds to a 19.3-to-1 ratio.

I’ve asked myself a question: what is the theoretical smallest size of a transistor on a chip using EUV hardware with 13.5 nm wavelength?

Using the same 19.3-to-1 ratio, could it be approximately 0.7 nm (13.5 / 19.3 = 0.69948... nm)?

I think the ratio in case of EUV should be different.

Consequently, ASML and Huawei might be limited to about 1 nm due to various transistor charge leakage issues, unless an entirely new transistor technology is introduced.

 

[DWLK]

I'm curious, does anyone have at least one piece of evidence of computer IP theft committed by China? Real evidence, not some myths and legends from the internet that are lies repeated a billion times. Warning, such lies are also found in articles on reputable websites, so not every piece of information published on such a site is necessarily true.

I'm curious as well, no idea why but it seems like people believe anything without evidence/proof

 

[TempleOrion]

I'm curious as well, no idea why but it seems like people believe anything without evidence/proof

However, there's massive proof the collective "West" has benefitted to the tune of multiple trillions of dollars by thieving IP, land, resources and people from the "East" (and everywhere else) over the centuries though.

Hegemonies seeing their monopolisation of power being rapidly diminished don't like to talk about that tho

Karma takes a while

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Yes, the example is exactly about stolen IP. When trolling, at least make it seem related to a previous part of the discussion, if not to the EUV topic at all. I have memories of very large parking lots with unsold cars lying around in Western countries throughout stages of their history, including the US. You see, I can digress too.


Yes, official sources also receive orders to publish propaganda and also seek for more clicks.

You see, this is the bull crap reason that other people don't take you serious. They call this particular bit of bad faith changing the goal posts. I provide plenty of resources answering your point, to the ends that you can't answer, and instead of trying you shift the discussion to something completely different, and fail to link the two points. In the middle, you openly lie about the topic.

Your bad faith is open, so go take a long walk off a short cliff. The discussion was about China "getting stuff done." You've ignored that, and want to claim it's technology. When you engage with bad faith, people will tell you to screw off, because you don't want a discussion. You lie, cheat, steal, and anything else. It's talking to a human rectum, who will spew crap everywhere...and that's why people stop talking to you.

However, there's massive proof the collective "West" has benefitted to the tune of multiple trillions of dollars by thieving IP, land, resources and people from the "East" (and everywhere else) over the centuries though.

Hegemonies seeing their monopolisation of power being rapidly diminished don't like to talk about that tho

Karma takes a while

The whole east versus west is a stupid dichotomy. It's protected capitalism versus flavored socialism.

Why might I say this? Vietnam. Taiwan. The Chinese are complaining that moving to Vietnam is an issue because workers know they have rights, and their government has been surprisingly stable and good for decades. Taiwan...I don't feel I need to explain.


What's the issue with the CCP? Well, capitalism produces a huge drive to research and investigate. This means you have monopolies like Xerox was at one point, and the second that monopoly disappears the $500 printer is now $200. Xerox though had 20 years to recoup their investment, and after that they have to compete. The CCP pays a few grand to have computers hacked, takes the data, and makes a cheap copy today. In this way, Xerox could never have existed. If the CCP, like Taiwan and Vietnam, played fair in trade it'd be fine. They do not.



One last little bit of fun. The CCP pulls the nine dash line from their butts...now the ten dash line. They use it to claim a monopoly on shipping routes. Countries seek arbitration to say this is unfair, international court rules their claims as bogus, CCP ignores ruling. The tariffs from the west happen. CCP claims it's unfair to the same courts, and the response back is that they are full of crap. China claims it's a western hegemony keeping them down...and the US has to sail warships through the area to keep the CCP from taking over in the area...against their fellow Asian nations. You know, this might just be China finally getting the black eye they deserve for acting like an entitled child to the entire world...

 

[trsttte]

5 nm or less chips are just a hype invented by the you know, US. They are particularly waste of money and effort. 28 nm chips are sufficient for most electronics we use daily. And in military technology, a smaller chip makes even less impact.

Have fun living in the stone age relatively speaking, that's 15 year old technology, it's just too slow and not fit for purpose today.

Consequently, ASML and Huawei might be limited to about 1 nm due to various transistor charge leakage issues, unless an entirely new transistor technology is introduced.

The size of a silicon atom is 0.2nm so yeah, there's a ton of challenges to solve before we get anywhere close to 1nm. Photonics have been making great strides, could be one of the paths forward.

The whole east versus west is a stupid dichotomy.

Exactly, because Japan, South Korea or Australia are so much to the west it's just silly. What even is the point of reference!?

 

[TempleOrion]

Exactly, because Japan, South Korea or Australia are so much to the west it's just silly. What even is the point of reference!?

The point of reference is that everyone with half a brain knows what "East" and "Collective West" means in this context: eg Australia, SK, Taiwan and Japan are in the "West", China and Indo-China, "East" for the sake of comparison. It's not rocket science FFS.

Speaking of which, I hope China gets royalties for the IP theft by Western European and North American polities (hope that's specific enough) regarding ideas for rocketry and gunpowder. And paper. And of course the Arab world should get some for the flagrant use of Arabic numerals and algorithmic mathematics

 

[TumbleGeorge]

You see, this is the bull crap reason that other people don't take you serious.

I know that trolls take me completely seriously because I'm getting in the way of their propaganda business.

 

[trsttte]

The point of reference is that everyone with half a brain knows what "East" and "Collective West" means in this context: eg Australia, SK, Taiwan and Japan are in the "West", China and Indo-China, "East" for the sake of comparison. It's not rocket science FFS.

Of course it's obvious, it's also a dumb way to group countries and should be mocked as such. What could be called the bastion of the west - the US - is to the east of what could be called the bastions of the east - China and Russia - than if you set course due west from there. It's silly.

Speaking of which, I hope China gets royalties for the IP theft by Western European and North American polities (hope that's specific enough) regarding ideas for rocketry and gunpowder. And paper. And of course the Arab world should get some for the flagrant use of Arabic numerals and algorithmic mathematics

I'll be sure to jump right into my time machine to go back to the relevant time period where those royalties would still be due

 

[Saigua]

These things last a bit, but only with ratchet maintenance. I hope this one automatically adjusts its volume to around half every year while stepping twice as many wafers, that's a good design to need another engineer for itself every year until it's so depreciated it's cranking out 22nm layers.

 

[Largo]

China is desperate to achieve EUV, I highly doubt that they won't deliver like with megaprojects they've ditched in the past.

Those saying that China cannot compete seemingly aren't aware that it is being forced to lock in with those sanctions. They aren't the most effective as blockades (ez H100 smuggling) but still do the job in such a globalized economy... and they certainly are effective as motivation for the CCP. And guess what, they've been gaining substantially in legacy chip market share for the last few years.

There is without any doubt a great chance that they'll tighten the gap in this race with western tech.

 

[TempleOrion]

Of course it's obvious, it's also a dumb way to group countries and should be mocked as such. What could be called the bastion of the west - the US - is to the east of what could be called the bastions of the east - China and Russia - than if you set course due west from there. It's silly.



I'll be sure to jump right into my time machine to go back to the relevant time period where those royalties would still be due

Oh boy... Doesn't even understand the basic geo-politics of the last century

FFS *everywhere* is East or West of everywhere else, depending on where you start Are you in Kindergarten? Maybe you think there are no 'blocs' in the world any more...

Though to be fair, now the US is best pals with ex-commie Russia (yet still anti hyper-capitalist China), hates Muslims (but loves Saudia's oil and money), is virulently anti-semitic (but subsidises the Chosen People so that even Intel builds fabs (why?) in the Promised Land)- it does get rather complicated for 'merkins

Gotta love the whining about "unfair competition" though; laughable in its hypocrisy and bitter envy.

 

[naksu]

While governments of the West are far from ideal I always cannot comprehend how can anyone defend and root for China and CCP. Guess many people really don't like Winne the Pooh and want to ban it forever