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Airflow vs static pressure fans. Are they a scam?

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how does a 125mm stacker 15000rpm 'sound' with my setup. 160mm and 18000 peak rpm if you include the cpu fan blowing very close in the same direction, and the single case grill in the middle. i have a stupid setup, thought it nice to give people a good laugh and cringe for others.
Does anyone even make 120/140mm PC case fans capable of reaching those speeds or is this a ghetto-type mod?
I can only imagine how loud it would be having 4-5 of them in a PC case spinning at 10,000+rpm. With fans like that, why even bother putting them inside the case when you can install them down in the basement & pipe the freakin cool air right into the case. :roll: For that amount of trouble, might as well hire an HVAC specialist to install a separate AC unit for the case and just have a 1-2 fans blowing out the warmer air...
 
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Does anyone even make 120/140mm PC case fans capable of reaching those speeds or is this a ghetto-type mod?
I can only imagine how loud it would be having 4-5 of them in a PC case spinning at 10,000+rpm. With fans like that, why even bother putting them inside the case when you can install them down in the basement & pipe the freakin cool air right into the case. :roll: For that amount of trouble, might as well hire an HVAC specialist to install a separate AC unit for the case and just have a 1-2 fans blowing out the warmer air...
Not to mention that fans at such rpms heat up a lot themselves and consume a lot of power.
 
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How it is even a bit unique? I only have Silencio S400, a small case, packed with lots of impedances. It's pretty much looks like any other generic mATX modern silent case. Define C Mini should perform similarly to this S400. Anyway, I have two stock fans (Silencio FP 120mm) set at 1080 rpm as two from intakes and due to DVD drive restriction, I use two exhaust fans, which are both Silverstone Globe 120mm rpms fans (from Grandia GD05B), one is rear exhaust and other is rear top exhaust. They both run at less 650-680 rpms. That's slow, but I noticed that they get a lot noisier than Silencio FPs at same rpms and so my current setup is setup more for minimal noise, rather than ideal thermal performance. There thermal performance of my machine is satisfactory, meaning it's quiet enough so I don't care and cool enough, so it stays quiet enough and safe enough. If I cared more about airflow, I would replace Globe fans with same Silencio FPs as they seem to be exceptionally quiet at quite a bit more rpm. But since I don't have any particularly hot hardware, there's not much reason for me to mess with fan setup. In fact I could remove two fan and just use those two Silencios only, but then my graphics card runs louder and I don't like that. With current setup graphics card runs Unigine Heaven benchmark and stays at around 1300 rpm. And I tolerate only under 1500 rpm. And now are one of the hottest summer days too.

And it would seem that I have positive pressure setup, but that's most likely not a case either. Those Silencio FPs have high pressure rating and a lot lower cfm rating, so they probably in real life also push less real cfms too and those two Silverstone Globe's at less than 700 rpm likely match them in terms of airflow, since their only restrictions are case grille an top fan filter. In terms of dust, I have been using this case for like 3 months and front filter is a bit dusty. Case is a bit dusty, but heatsinks are pretty much perfectly clean. Only PSU filter had some serious dust, but that's it. I don't remember having system this decently clean in Cooler Master K280 case, so S400 is an improvement.
That’s why I said “unique/totally normal” ;) Ots a common case design but not the sort of environment used for testing fans

And a little nudge again — try removing pci brackets to further reduce GPU noise. You may even be able to remove one set of fans after that mod
 
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Eh, bearing life span barely matters in reality. It's not that it doesn't matter, but because even very basic and cheap sleeve fans survive for more than decade and their lifespan could be extended with re-oiling them and keeping them clean. Pretty much anything more than sleeve fan is overkill.
Not so sure, capacitors and fans seem to be the first thing to wear out for power supplies and one must catch a dry fan early for reoiling or the supply will overheat.

That said, I tend to recap what I have with top quality replacements and oil the fans with a lot more oil than they had originally; at that point I'd tend to agree with you.
 
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Its not a scam and you need static pressure fans pretty much only in case you have high fin count radiator or some really densely packed air cooler over CPU.

For regular air cooling (air in case, air out of case) it doesnt matter much apart those odd designs that give only tiny amount of intake/output space so you need high pressure fan to actually get some air in it or out (problem is usually getting it in).

I think manufacturers focus on other stuff too simply cause not all users are that demanding (as for example ones using liquid cooling custom loops) and also it does have impact on sound (moving a lot of air quick and with pressure does make some noise, its impossible to avoid). Its reason for batwings and similar stuff that lowers sound when rotor moves fast. Usually minimal impact on air pressure.

As for design to air pressure, well look at jet engine turbine vs rotor propelled airplane. Solution is rather clearly "more lamels + higher RPM = more pressure".

Fairly sure even dual-blades fan could generate enough pressure, if those blades are big/curved enough and RPM is high too. Could be actually interesting experiment, if it has any positive impact on sound or not.
 
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I believe the less blades on a propeller the more efficient.
 

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Its not a scam and you need static pressure fans pretty much only in case you have high fin count radiator or some really densely packed air cooler over CPU.

For regular air cooling (air in case, air out of case) it doesnt matter much apart those odd designs that give only tiny amount of intake/output space so you need high pressure fan to actually get some air in it or out (problem is usually getting it in).
I don’t think that’s true at all... Even in “airflow” cases you still have a high-impedance filter to overcome. If you look at GN’s reviews those cases often drop 10* just by removing the filter. Filters are much more restrictive than the hex cutouts you often see in the exhaust positions. Nevermind that the majority of cases ship with a solid front panel and tiny side vents in addition to a filter.

IMO, exhaust is the only time airflow fans make more sense than a well-optimized/static pressure oriented fan. Exhaust is the only real situation where direction matters (well, maybe also if you’re using a blower GPU, but the intake problem mitigates this IMO) and, unless your intake is open air, you’re always going to have to overcome a lot of impedance with pressure.
 

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To be fair my iPPC fans have to rev to 3K to match the 110 CFM rating of my 2500rpm Panaflos, not counting the pressure yet.

And my TY-143 only needed 2500rpm for 130cfm.
 
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It will likely be spinning faster than if it was alone simply due to more pressure allowing it to operate with less restriction, but the difference won't be huge.
given the noise it makes at full chat, I'm sure that rpm is a factor other than mere pressure impedance differences. and it is more cfm without doubt. diminishing returns perhaps of course, but more for sure. i am sure people in this thread have heard high speed drone motors running at different speeds and how their sound signature changes at those rpms.

Does anyone even make 120/140mm PC case fans capable of reaching those speeds or is this a ghetto-type mod?
I can only imagine how loud it would be having 4-5 of them in a PC case spinning at 10,000+rpm. With fans like that, why even bother putting them inside the case when you can install them down in the basement & pipe the freakin cool air right into the case. :roll: For that amount of trouble, might as well hire an HVAC specialist to install a separate AC unit for the case and just have a 1-2 fans blowing out the warmer air...
that is a so called ghetto setup but you may have missed me mentioning later that they are a stacked setup of 5 fans @ 3k rpms each and 125mm thick (so no, not 10k+ rpms in fact) . it idles quieter at 20% duty cycle than my aircon.
 
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Because we're talking about fans i have a question: if my fans are rated 1500rpm but i make them run at 1600rpm what could it happens to it?
 
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I believe the less blades on a propeller the more efficient.
It depends on what you mean by efficient. Prop-driven fighters in WW2 started out with three-bladed propellers, but by the end of the war the piston engines became so powerful they needed 4-bladed propellers with gigantic paddle blades to harness all that horsepower and torque and the improvement in performance was noticeable for the P-51d mustang and P-47d Thunderbolt.

Three-bladed fans never produce much static pressure -- even at high RPM's.
 
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Because we're talking about fans i have a question: if my fans are rated 1500rpm but i make them run at 1600rpm what could it happens to it?
you want the alarmist version?- then fan hub failure- demagnetisation! however i expect your fan to have the usual 10% tolerance meaning 1350 to 1650 operating range.
 
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I believe the less blades on a propeller the more efficient.
twin blade prop vs jet turbine for efficiency....any fluid dynamicists here?? i do realise that jets do not directly create airflow over the wings.

Fuel per mile
probably should be fuel per thrust unit, of the blade and drive unit, or something similar.
 

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my two cents is that they are not a scam. I noticed excellent airflow improvement when I changed my stock PC case exhaust fan to the NZXT Aer-P fan. it just pushes air through the exhaust metal grill better cause of the 'airplane' like fan blades it has.

excellent fan, probably the best fan I have ever bought. I like it more than my Noctua fans.
 
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noticed excellent airflow improvement when I changed my stock PC case exhaust fan
that's not a high bar to overcome mate in the absolute vast majority of cases. any decent AF fan can outperform a stock case fan.
 

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that's not a high bar to overcome mate in the absolute vast majority of cases. any decent AF fan can outperform a stock case fan.

true but something about it I just like. I like the design of it, feels high quality, etc.
 
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Does anyone even make 120/140mm PC case fans capable of reaching those speeds or is this a ghetto-type mod?
I can only imagine how loud it would be having 4-5 of them in a PC case spinning at 10,000+rpm. With fans like that, why even bother putting them inside the case when you can install them down in the basement & pipe the freakin cool air right into the case. :roll: For that amount of trouble, might as well hire an HVAC specialist to install a separate AC unit for the case and just have a 1-2 fans blowing out the warmer air...

10,000 RPM fans, yeah that's all Delta, SanAce and Nidec make. Maybe you should look at their product catalogs sometime and realize they manufacture all kinds of fans and blowers -- some of which don't even run at 12V. :kookoo:
 
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to the NZXT Aer-P fan.
I just checked and it's a pressure optimised design so well done, a good choice. as a still proud owner of an original NZXT Phantom red case on one of my other systems, hopefully NZXT have decided to go with better suppliers for their fans than in those early days! their 200mm fans were trash.
 
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Fuel per mile
Lower rotating mass will inevitably lead to higher efficiency, but only if it can maintain sufficient energy transfer with that lower mass. There's always a balance. Of course with fewer blades, literal balancing of the rotor is also a crucial problem that needs solving.
Because we're talking about fans i have a question: if my fans are rated 1500rpm but i make them run at 1600rpm what could it happens to it?
Likely not much. As @Ominence mentioned, fans are typically rated at +/- 10% rotational speed, so if rated at 1500rpm it might top out at anywhere from 1350 to 1650rpm. Of course if it tops out at 1500rpm actual rotation speed at the rated voltage and 100% PWM and you have to overvolt them to run them faster, that might cause the motor to wear out faster. Likely not much from such a small change though. A fan rated at 12V operation can often handle much higher (15-16V at least) for short periods, so a low overvoltage over time is likely entirely within its tolerances.
I doubt that. I meant the whole mITX market exists and they are are always thinking of ways to makes computers smaller and people buy that stuff.
Hm? I don't see how that's relevant. mITX is a standard. Heck, if anything, the SFF PC market is an excellent demonstration of how breaking standards leads to problems - try to google how many people have issues fitting the DTX Asus Crosshair 8 Impact into various SFF ITX cases, for example. SFF cases also tendt to be very meticulous in documenting their clearances and limitations for non- or not-quite standardized things like radiator/fan fitment (not the size or mounting patterns, but if any can fit, how large, etc.), CPU cooler clearances, GPU size, etc. As for trying to make PCs smaller, the whole point is doing so while maintaining compatibility. Look at the Dan A4 for example - the entire purpose of that case is allowing you to build a powerful PC with all standard components - ITX motherboard, dual-slot full-size GPU, SFX PSU. All accepted standards. There are plenty of proprietary SFF solutions from the likes of Zotac, but you can't build those yourself. DIY requires adherence to standards to work.
I clearly mentioned that thicker fans would be for those that do their own research and I don't expect them to fit everywhere.
But you're not accepting the inherent consequences of that, in (likely much) lower sales and limited compatibility. Of PC gamers (to pick a sizeable group with high performance PCs), only a small minority DIY build their PCs. Of those, only a small minority buy additional fans beyond those that come with their case. Of those, a large portion likely just buy whatever is cheapest as they discover free fan slots and are given advice online to just stuff it full of fans. So the people doing targeted purchases of brand-name fans? That's already a very small group. Adding "use cases where a thicker fan will fit and provide tangible benefit" is likely to make the target market so small as to be near meaningless. Meaning that with any significant R&D cost, these fans would become ridiculously expensive. High end 25mm fans like the NF-A12x25 are already ridiculously expensive. Starting from scratch with literally every single part of the fan for a >35mm fan? I wouldn't be surprised if that doubled the costs from there.
How hard could it possibly be. Just give review units to LTT, JayZ, Bitwit and write in big bold letters, that these fan's won't fit everywhere. Done. And write that on your website and fan box. Now, truly done. You know, it's not like we didn't have 200mm fans or even bigger 240mm fans in computers.
You clearly have a highly optimistic view of how informed and rational people's purchase decisions are. Heck, even lots of people on these forums make poorly informed purchase decisions (excluding those who come here after the fact to seek help, which is not an insignificant group). But most people don't frequent tech/PC forums. Trying to inform your way out of breaking compatibility is a fool's errand, will inevitably mostly reach the people who already understand the issue (as those are far more likely to seek out these channels of information anyhow), and ignores entirely the game of telephone that is public discourse on any topic. Things get lost or transformed in transmission, and there's no amount of marketing or clear communication that can realistically overcome this. It can make a positive impact vs. doing nothing at all, but the problem will by no means go away.
That's because it's a pressure design, give that extra thickness to airflow design and it may do wonders.
That doesn't really make sense. The main benefit of a thicker fan is allowing for more pressure, as the thickness minimizes the effects of back-pressure resisting flow or flowing back between the blades. Also, if you look at the specs, it isn't really a pressure design - the 2200rpm 25mm Vardar is rated for 3.16mmH2O, while the 1800rpm 38mm Meltemi is rated for 2.75mmH2O. At speeds this low with fans this large, there ultimately isn't much you can do without drastically increasing thickness - in which case stacking two 25mm fans is cheaper, easier, and likely as good. The 3000rpm version of the Meltemi is far better at 7.13mmH2O, but ... yeah, I wouldn't want that in the same room as me. The Meltemi is designed for a specific use case: pull orientation on thick, restrictive radiators, where it supposedly outperforms thinner fans due to specifics of its flow pattern and geometries. But you can't read that kind of stuff off of a spec sheet.
 

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10,000 RPM fans, yeah that's all Delta, SanAce and Nidec make. Maybe you should look at their product catalogs sometime and realize they manufacture all kinds of fans and blowers -- some of which don't even run at 12V. :kookoo:

Yeah i like Delta's, used to have a few how ever the blade of the 120mm x 38mm hit some thing and ripped right off :(, my other is a 92mm x 38 and still going strong 12+ years later.

Got a few few P12's static pressure on my v card and and do much better then a none static one.
 
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my other is a 92mm x 38 and still going strong 12+ years later.
i still have a handful of nearly 2 decade old Sunon 5 blade and Panaflo 7 blade 120mm fans. ah sweet memories... they have noisy bearings regardless of rpms! the panaflos are 2 wire AMP versions, lol.
 

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Likely not much. As @Ominence mentioned, fans are typically rated at +/- 10% rotational speed, so if rated at 1500rpm it might top out at anywhere from 1350 to 1650rpm. Of course if it tops out at 1500rpm actual rotation speed at the rated voltage and 100% PWM and you have to overvolt them to run them faster, that might cause the motor to wear out faster. Likely not much from such a small change though. A fan rated at 12V operation can often handle much higher (15-16V at least) for short periods, so a low overvoltage over time is likely entirely within its tolerances.
So that means that if they are rated 1500rpm and can do 1650rpm because the extra 10% i can run it at that speed for 5 hours without any consequences?
 
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i can run it at that speed for 5 hours without any consequences?
even at their stock 12v current draw (meaning 100% duty cycle) , they should last the MTBF of your fan. fans can be run 24/7 with the occasional (meaning many weeks in between) hub dust off to keep the bearings in a healthy condition. unless the fan is a noname bottom of the barrel variety, they are not as delicate as i think you might believe them to be.
 

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even at their stock 12v current draw (meaning 100% duty cycle) , they should last the MTBF of your fan. fans can be run 24/7 with the occasional (meaning many weeks in between) hub dust off to keep the bearings in a healthy condition. unless the fan is a noname bottom of the barrel variety, they are not as delicate as i think you might believe them to be.
Thanks for the info, appreciate it.
I just checked the operating Voltage of my fans which is 7V - 13.2V
 
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