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AMD FSR 2.0 Quality & Performance

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It is good that this is finally getting on dlss standard while not requiring any more die space. Imagine the costs Nvidia could save by not having to include tensor cores (or having much less) while still offering the same stuff. Or they just find more uses for it than just DLSS and some pro stuff, on a seperate die for that MCM future :D
 
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Basically as per the XeSS for Intel, XMX increases performance and allow more process which increases image quality. This is the same for DLSS and tensor cores. From Intel slides, XeSS on DP4 instructions runs on all GPUs but is both slower and has reduced image quality. One of the big issues with temporal upscaling is a lack of processing power leads to blurring. Also AI is better at removing artifacts and can make guess when there is a lack of samples further improving image quality.

In the Matrix Awakened demo DLSS quality mode appears to outperform TSR in UE5 by 10 fps. So I expect DLSS and XeSS to both outperform TSR and FSR 2 in both quality and performance with a 4k upscale. With DLSS having a fixed cost because the number of tensor cores. I expect the performance to be close at lower resolutions. The issue I would guess with FSR 2 is it wot upscale from 1080p to 4k because the quality wont match. Dynamic resolution scaling is going to be the best bet to keep quality close the nvidia DLSS. you samply increase the resolution or decrease it. Thus you can have better quality and maintain performance. With temporal upscaling there should be little need for sharpening.

In the article we can see that a 4k result requires a 1440p input for FSR 2 to upscale to 4k in quality mode. Like DLSS this is better than FSR 1. Internal resolution affects the number of rays needed in Ray Tracing games thus rendering at the lowest resolution posible is very important before upscaling. I can see that FSR 2 i about 5 fps behind, given that there is a performnce gap in RT games as well. This means AMD is cannot close the gap with NVidia.

Image quality is good in still shots, need to see raw video to see image quality while the image is moving. Thats when most of the artifacts happen. FSR 2 looks a little more blurred compared to DLSS but close. DLSS 2 does looks closer to native. Stills wont tell you much. Would not use FSR 1 but would use FSR 2. FSR 2 is the right balance, were FSR 1 was not.
Thanks Kreskin
 

wolf

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DLSS and RT are proprietary "features" by nvidia with no value for the user who can think.
The PS5 and new XBox do not support RT, so the gamers actually do not need it.
Care to explain that a bit more? Just becuase it's of no value to you, doesn't mean it's of no value 'for the user who can think'. And is that a typo about the consoles?
AMD's mistake is that it follows instead of thinking proactively about new unique features with real value.
Indeed, Nvidia (or others) innovate, and AMD plays catch up, but I suppose it's nice to get respectable open source alternatives a year or two late.
 
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Thanks Kreskin

If you are going to follow me to each thread I post in and post like this, you better create a backup account. No one expects others to agree but making personal remarks is another story.
 
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If you are going to follow me to each thread I post in and post like this, you better create a backup account.
............
 
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I still prefer DLSS, both image quality and performance is ahead - tho small.

Having said that, FSR 2.0 is a noticeable step up from 1.0. When looking at FSR 2.0 Balanced Vs FSR 1.0 Quality (for closer performance parity), FSR 2.0 was very easily the winner despite the lesser setting! This is only based on 1 game tho. Still nice to see these improvements, and that its not hardware dependent. DLSS as a selling feature has been diminished.
 

wolf

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Definitely going to be trying this for myself, but I'd also like a broader sample than 1 title to test it in to draw broad conclusions.

Based on what I'm seeing here though, there are still things it does worse, and I'd easily call it worse overall (just watch the video), just by a MUCH slimmer margin, at least far slimmer than FSR 1.0, and that still doesn't make it a DLSS killer.

The title is borderline clickbait, AMD's marketing has been stressing pretty clearly that it's easy to implement in games that support DLSS so... why not both? And that goes both ways. If you already planned on supporting FSR 2.0, then you should add DLSS support. Similarly, if you already planned on DLSS support, then you should add FSR 2.0 support as well.

AMD needs to get it in lots games people care about, because if Nvidia can still keep doing that (and AMD can't), this is all for nothing.

The road to DLSS actually being killed may have finally started to be walked, but we're nowhere near Nvidia crying about it and pulling the pin, it could take years to actually make the kill.
 
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I just don't know what all the fuss is about.

I sit 1 feet further away from my screen and I've got DLSS 3.0/FSR 2.5 enabled. If games need a little sprucing up with ray tracing, i just open the window and let the sun in. You guys just need to catch up!
 
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Massive improvements at 1080p for FSR2.0, FSR1.0 was god awful. But now it's every bit as good if not a wee bit better than DLSS. They are so close no one would notice in real gameplay IMO. Now if RDNA3 massively improves RT, then Nvidia's last advantage is gone and all they'll rely on is brute force ie huge power draw to win bragging rights. RDNA3 might be the first AMD GPU's I'm going to buy in the last 10 years.
 
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Oh My God, it really looks great... Nvidia must be sweating blood seeing their solution that needs a dedicated ASIC, wasting precious space on the die, being matched via open source software. lol

We're not far away off from the idea that AMD competes in all possible markets and is able to release better products overall.
 
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This is a radical opinion which doesn't reflect the reality. Probably you'd agree that there is a difference between "moderate" profit margin of 15%, and aggressive, crazy profit margin of 65%, yes or no?
I imagine you'd be shocked to see how much higher NVIDIA's margins are than AMD's...
 

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Oh My God, it really looks great... Nvidia must be sweating blood seeing their solution that needs a dedicated ASIC, wasting precious space on the die, being matched via open source software. lol
NVIDIA uses Tensor cores for ray tracing, too, for the AI denoiser. This probably offloads the shaders quite a bit.

Though I agree. NVIDIA looks for problems to solve using the most difficult/expensive approach possible, which it can sell as exclusive features for a generation or two. AMD looks at the problem NVIDIA discovered, the solution, and tries to find the most frugal alternative solution. Happened with FreeSync vs. G-SYNC; happened with FSR 2.0 vs. DLSS; will happen with Ray Tracing.
 
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This is Day One of FSR 2.0 and it is already matching most of the DLSS 2.x quality, having DLSS 2.x being polished for over a year for now

Once again the market will favor an open solution without proprietary hardware requirement.
 
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NVIDIA uses Tensor cores for ray tracing, too, for the AI denoiser. This probably offloads the shaders quite a bit.

Though I agree. NVIDIA looks for problems to solve using the most difficult/expensive approach possible, which it can sell as exclusive features for a generation or two. AMD looks at the problem NVIDIA discovered, the solution, and tries to find the most frugal alternative solution. Happened with FreeSync vs. G-SYNC; happened with FSR 2.0 vs. DLSS; will happen with Ray Tracing.

Do they? Has any RayTracing game implemented Tensor core accelerated de-noising of the RayTracing?

And no they don't. Using AI to implent DLSS was the easier and more affordable method for nVidia. As training an AI for a model, can be easier than hand working code. And nVidia has massively invested in AI. So it made a ton of sense for them to do it. It also helped them unify the GPU's they make. As now everything has tensor cores on it and they don't have to create something seperate just for the AI business.
 

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Has any RayTracing game implemented Tensor core accelerated de-noising of the RayTracing?
Every single ray tracing application that has ever run on a GeForce RTX GPU uses that AI denoiser.

AI denoising is integral to the ray tracing pipeline on GeForce RTX. AMD GPUs use a compute-shader based denoiser.
 
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Every single ray tracing application that has ever run on a GeForce RTX GPU uses that AI denoiser.

Denoising is integral to the ray tracing pipeline.

I'm not sure that's really accurate. Just a little googling suggests they don't use the tensor cores for that yet, but it's being worked on.
 
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FSR 2.0 especially with Sharpen does a nice job the combination helps with shading and lighting while enhancing reflection. Overall FSR 2.0 does a good enough job at preserving color depth quality. Zoomed in I feel it looks better than DLAA and DLSS personally and better than native with no AA. I have to agree with W1zzard on sharpening control AMD would be wise to include good control options around it since people have very varied preferences around that subject matter.

I'm hoping the code won't be too hard to adjust the per dimension scaling for the different presets as well. I'd probably make some adjustments on the scaling as well to work a little better within 0-255 8-bit color space as well the 1.7 per dimension is fine, but the others would be more optimal at 1.53x, 2.04x, and 3.06x since it aligns better plus the minor per dimension uplift will work better with the additional temporal data. For adaptive I'd prefer 51%/68%/85% of screen resolution myself.

This is a good step forward. The depth/motion/color buffer's are nice I hope AMD expands around it with newer hardware with additional optimized configuration profiles around each that gets combined into a single frame buffer. They could basically target enhancing scene highlights/mid-tones/shadows to each buffer type and combine them basically loosely targeting 0/127.5/255 black/grey/white to provide buffer better image clarity with each combined with upscale to higher resolution. Could probably brute force that now at around native resolution performance with better image quality for older titles.
 
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AMD's mistake is that it answers these dirty initiatives by nvidia. Tessellation, and now RT... Do you remember when nvidia paid a game developer to REMOVE the DX 10.1 implementation (Assassin's Creed DX10.1) in which the Radeons were better?
it is AMD that push MS to make tessellation being part of DX11 spec not nvidia. nvidia simply beat AMD at tessellation performance on their first try. ever since then i have seen people accusing nvidia pushing tessellation into DX spec to cripple AMD when in fact it is AMD that try to push for tessellation since DX10 era.
 
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I just don't know what all the fuss is about.

I sit 1 feet further away from my screen and I've got DLSS 3.0/FSR 2.5 enabled. If games need a little sprucing up with ray tracing, i just open the window and let the sun in. You guys just need to catch up!
Yeah. Listen to us old timers, kids. Touch grass and get some sunshine. Gives you vitamin D.
 
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Well done. Now the only feature AMD is missing, is performant raytracing.
This will be fixed in RDNA 3 and things should get real interesting.
 
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RT is not a proprietary feature of Nvidia, Nvidia was first on it and branded it as "RTX" but it's a standard that is in both Vulkan and Direct X12 ultimate. AMD implementation is just different and they made the choice to not have dedicated hardware function for it but rather reuse the texture and compute unit to do it. It's a more flexible approach but you loose overall performance when using RT since it use things you already need to render the frame.

The big advantage is when there is a game that do not use RT, you do not have silicon space unused. on the other side, if you are even in a non-RT setup, you will lose when RT is enabled. Their goal was probably to achieve much higher raster performance than Nvidia so they would get on par RT performance but they were not there. We will see how it is on Navi 3x. RT is still in its early phase and i do not think there is enough good hardware to really be used widely. A bit like when pixel shaders got out. it took dx9c and few gen of hardware before they really got widespread.
 
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DLSS and RT are proprietary "features" by nvidia with no value for the user who can think.
The PS5 and new XBox do not support RT, so the gamers actually do not need it.

AMD's mistake is that it follows instead of thinking proactively about new unique features with real value.
PS5, Xbox SS and SX all support RT just like every other RDNA2 product.

Those are the limits. This is not as good as the article makes it out to be, from this one cherry picked game from amd. Once you will have fine objects in motion, hair on characters the artifacts will be even more apparent. Its good, but its no dlss killer of any kind. It looks worse, it runs worse and we'll see how the adoption is going to be with additional work required. DLSS is in like three times more games than the junk fsr 1.0 which should have been the easiest thing in the world to implement
Thanks for the laughs :laugh:
ps. FSR got over 1/3 of the official game count vs DLSS despite being out under a year, while DLSS has been out over 3 years. Also there's tools to apply FSR to literally any game (like RSR now allows, too)

Every single ray tracing application that has ever run on a GeForce RTX GPU uses that AI denoiser.

AI denoising is integral to the ray tracing pipeline on GeForce RTX. AMD GPUs use a compute-shader based denoiser.
Quite sure nothing outside NVIDIA demos ever used their "AI denoiser", it's possible there's an odd exception somewhere, but that's it.
 
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RT is not a proprietary feature of Nvidia, Nvidia was first on it and branded it as "RTX" but it's a standard that is in both Vulkan and Direct X12 ultimate. AMD implementation is just different and they made the choice to not have dedicated hardware function for it but rather reuse the texture and compute unit to do it. It's a more flexible approach but you loose overall performance when using RT since it use things you already need to render the frame.

The big advantage is when there is a game that do not use RT, you do not have silicon space unused. on the other side, if you are even in a non-RT setup, you will lose when RT is enabled. Their goal was probably to achieve much higher raster performance than Nvidia so they would get on par RT performance but they were not there. We will see how it is on Navi 3x. RT is still in its early phase and i do not think there is enough good hardware to really be used widely. A bit like when pixel shaders got out. it took dx9c and few gen of hardware before they really got widespread.

Sorta... AMD's has dedicate RT... but the RT units are part of the compute units. Where are nVidia's are more dedicated to just RT and the computre/CUDA part is completely seperate. The funny part is AMD's method isn't bad, it's as fast or faster than Turning... but slower than Ampere. Early days stuff as you said though, it will get there.
 

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Oh My God, it really looks great... Nvidia must be sweating blood seeing their solution that needs a dedicated ASIC, wasting precious space on the die, being matched via open source software. lol

Oddly nVidia's Linux drivers just gone open source.
 
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