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Arrow Lake Retested with Latest 24H2 Updates and 0x114 Microcode

negfuz

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In response to your first question - you'll have to wait for those who are into the finer techicalites of Intel firmware to answer as I'm only aware of the AMD side of things more.
To your second question - because you play at very high resolutions & need the rig for tasks apart from gaming, my suggestion is to go with the Ryzen 9 9950X with the precision boost overdrive maxed out to whatever level it can be proven to be stable with & that is with a negative offset on the voltage curve in order to reduce heat & power consumption. Of course that will depend on the silicon lottery & what you have in its capability here, but no one knows that until actual testing is done. Performance can be further improved by adjusting the FLCK value beyond stock & with a good RAM configuration applied as well. Other variables come into play here though when those other 2 factors are in the mix because of the various combos of motherboard, RAM kits & agesa releases.
I mean I can undervolt/tune both, not really fair to suggest tuning one when the same refinements could be perhaps had on the 285K too? I'm not really asking for that though, looking for more of a general out of the box (with updates, obviously!) overall experience - I'm not looking to spend hours and hours testing stability here to accomplish this, nor am I looking to run a mini heater (my 13900k right now is running while respecting Intel Limits, i.e. not to exceed 253watts).

The 285k also beats the 9950x in some workflows - and is neck and neck in others - it's just unclear what the power draw is during those specific workflows. Maybe even over the duration of the test? Dont think anyone measures that though - useful metric for me, but not to the benchmarkers it seems.

this video seems to literally be the only video or benchmark that directly compares the results while showing power draw in that benchmark. But obviously it's a month old video so none of the fixes are taken into account here... so I imagine it can only get better here? At least as far as gaming is concerned...

Thoughts on the above video? Anything I'm overlooking here? Even if I look at this video in isolation vs the non gaming performance benchmarks of 285k vs 9950x, 285k wins it.... right?
 

negfuz

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To answer your first question, you will know for sure when its live by Asrock mentioning it on their download page or some other update, i expect once the bios leaves beta.
It would also be best to wait for Intel's update or "Field Update 2 Of 2" to be completely certain.
Thanks for the lengthy explanation and the picture.
And yeah I'm planning on waiting for the field 2of2 - but coming from Asus board to this Asrock z890 Aqua - their Bios pages don't actually show the ME version though in each bios. It just states: "Update Intel ME version." with no details. Is this somewhere that I'm not seeing? I even downloaded that bios right now and opened the zip file, theres no changelog or .txt file to peek in lol

I'm just a bit confused as I'm not sure if you watched the full part2 of the video, but the Intel guy acknowledged that 0x114 is out, but its useless without the secret sauce which, as we know is coming in January and is being tested by their partners right now. So are you suggesting that it's possible that the Asrock bios currently out right now, marked as 0x114, with no mention of "v2.2" in the ME firmware, was actually based off the 2.2 toolkit? So everything may already be as good as it gets possibly? I know the proper answer is to just wait at this juncture, just wondering about the possibility. Thanks again!
 
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Thanks for the lengthy explanation and the picture.
And yeah I'm planning on waiting for the field 2of2 - but coming from Asus board to this Asrock z890 Aqua - their Bios pages don't actually show the ME version though in each bios. It just states: "Update Intel ME version." with no details. Is this somewhere that I'm not seeing? I even downloaded that bios right now and opened the zip file, theres no changelog or .txt file to peek in lol

I'm just a bit confused as I'm not sure if you watched the full part2 of the video, but the Intel guy acknowledged that 0x114 is out, but its useless without the secret sauce which, as we know is coming in January and is being tested by their partners right now. So are you suggesting that it's possible that the Asrock bios currently out right now, marked as 0x114, with no mention of "v2.2" in the ME firmware, was actually based off the 2.2 toolkit? So everything may already be as good as it gets possibly? I know the proper answer is to just wait at this juncture, just wondering about the possibility. Thanks again!
I watched the entire video, it repeated a lot of the same information over and over.

At this stage it is not possible to tell what firmware kit the ME is based on, you will need to wait for Asrock to release the full bios or specifically mention firmware kit 19.0.0.1854v2.2 or something similar like "microcode and ME update as per Intel Field Update" or "January ME update".
Knowing Asrock, they may just release the full January release bios with the same notes as current.

There are no notes as far as I can see on the Asrock website or the bios zip, I pulled the version directly out of the bios file with UEFITool, you could always flash the bios if you have not already and check in device manager, HWIFNO, or a version checking tool etc... It will just say "19.0.0.1854" *edit* I believe HWINFO can show some sub-firmware versions and other ME info.

There is no information on what firmware kit 19.0.0.1854v2.2 contains so it's impossible to tell if the current firmware out in the wild is older or newer. ME Analyzer, the ME dump/update version checking tool I normally use, does not work for CSME 19, I am not familiar with the layout so i would rather not try guess what sub-firmware versions a dump/update contains.
To be safe, just assume its older and there will be a revised 19.0.0.1854 in January.

Will that make any difference to performance? You will need to wait for W1zzard and other reviews.
 
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DareDevil01

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Honestly, I feel like Intel is getting too much flak for Arrow Lake. While they obviously need to improve things like thread assignment with the new architecture, I feel like most of the blame needs to be assigned to Microsoft. 24H2 is absolutely broken in every single way. Every day a new article comes out about how 24H2 broke a certain feature, or gaming performance, or a software. I work in IT, and we've had to roll back 24H2 on multiple computers because it breaks multiple unrelated pieces of software that are absolutely business-critical for us, so it's not just an issue with a single feature or part of Windows.

I'm very bullish on Intel overall, even with Arrow Lake. The big-little architecture was absolutely the right move for consumers (which AMD immediately copied), they've adopted the chiplet design after seeing how well it worked for AMD (and let AMD handle much of the "teething issues), and they've moving to drop native support for x86, which I think will pair very nicely with moving to single-threaded cores and allow them to simplify core design immensely.
There's a bit of bias here.
The word selection for Intel vs AMD
~"The big-little which AMD *immediately copied*"
vs
~"they've *adopted* the chiplet design after seeing how well it worked for AMD"

It takes many years to develop a new chip, particularly a new arch with different tiling etc.
I highly doubt either "copied".
 
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Ok, I guess we can reduce this to a single word: turd, can't find anything else that share that many properties with another.

I mean seriously, can you take a product serious when it's release include "Situation Reports", as if serious sounding words would turn it into something that's not a turd someone just put in the same room and pretends it's fine
 
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That, or software emulation of non-existent machine code instructions. The Linux community (that Intel is an important member of) could implement that. MS ... not so sure.
If you mean actual software emulation, then the whole program must be emulated, as the CPU core executes at least tens of thousands of instructions for every kernel tick.

At least on Linux when executing a program with unsupported instruction you'll get a kernel trap "Illegal instruction (core dumped)" (e.g. trying AVX2 on my i7-3930K), but I'm not deeply familiar this mechanism to determine with whether it could successfully catch the entire CPU state well enough to emulate a few clocks and then move it back without causing any program error.

Or quad-pumped or anything that's cheapest to make. If the goal is compatibility, not performance, then any kind of performance above zero is acceptable.
I suggested dual-pumped because the E-core already support 256-bit vectors, and is what Via and AMD successfully did with their first implementations. This would be a relatively marginal cost, only requiring extra complexity for instructions that affect across the 512-bit vector or new types of features that AVX2 lacked (there are a few).

No, these are two different things.
X86S = how can we make the 32-bit parts a little bit leaner (Intel only)
Advisory group = how can we still extract money from our IP when our most important patents expire (Intel and AMD, and I'm not sure what others are doing here)
No silly, the advisory group is about evolving the x86 family, not extracting money. :p
I'm not convinced all the x86S efforts was a good idea, as it might sacrifice to much compatibility. Running old games (like we all like to do), or running MS-DOS for fun isn't the main concern here, but the vast amount of "enterprise" software running everywhere from servers, to workstations, embedded systems(incl. medical, military uses etc.).

Secondly, the great level of compatibility of x86 over the decades is the main reason for the thriving enthusiast community and the the wealth of software that can run on almost anything without a fruity logo. We may take this for granted, but this wasn't a given in the late 70s and early 80s, and the more obvious outcome would be to have 4-5 vendors like Apple, each with their own platforms constantly evolving and breaking compatibility, and each with their niche selection of software. Having a stable "standard" is immensely valuable, far more important than having the perfect standard, and we've gotten a massive amount of small software companies and individuals that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise. If anything, compatibility should have been even better, but this isn't a shortcoming of x86, but mainly MS for terrible API compatibility and some games and applications relying on undefined behavior (e.g. copy protection).

Nothing specific, but 32-bit boot mode/protected mode/ring-0 is an attack surface that X86S would remove. These capabilities also have to be integrated into every new architecture, which is a process that can create new security cracks.
That shouldn't be a concern for anyone except for those consciously choosing to run an antiquated OS, as those who do will do this for a specific purpose.
 
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