ASRock X870E Taichi

[Tek-Check]

This is how I found out the ASUS X670E Hero was sharing PCIe lanes with M.2 and USB4/TB4.
This lane sharing Never mentioned in the manual.

I don't quite understand what is the issue here. If lanes are shared, the manual MUST mention it, otherwise OEM can be sued for false advertisement of features. What is the evidence that lanes are shared?

 

[Combatus]

i remember when $150 was a good board, ala B550 mortar, and $220 got you a high end board.

I was thinking about this a lot recently. You didn’t need to spend much more than $200 to get something truly high end. Those days seem like they’re long gone although to be fair if you look at the PCB and features of boards these days they do have a lot more stuff.

 

[ir_cow]

I don't quite understand what is the issue here. If lanes are shared, the manual MUST mention it, otherwise OEM can be sued for false advertisement of features.

You would probably lose a lawsuit. It's only false advertising if it didn't work at all. We gonna start to sue for QVL lists, false 16x PCIe slots and BS oneclick OC features now too?

What is the evidence that lanes are shared?

It's in the review and explained like I mentioned above. Not to derail this review thread much, but one example could be say you are transferring data from M2.A to M2.B, while your doing that either you are reading from USB4/TB4 or writing to it, the M2.A already transferring will continue to M2.B and a much slower rate while USB4/TB4 tries to start, eventually just "pretending" and not do anything until the first transfer is done. However repeat this with M2.B and M2.C, D, , PCie card, etc and it's full speed for everything. Thus lane sharing is happening.

I was thinking about this a lot recently. You didn’t need to spend much more than $200 to get something truly high end. Those days seem like they’re long gone although to be fair if you look at the PCB and features of boards these days they do have a lot more stuff.

Yet a A620 shitty 4 phase split high/low VRM hits 115c with a 7950X....so cheapness has a limit.

 

[Tek-Check]

You would probably lose a lawsuit. It's only false advertising if it didn't work at all. We gonna start to sue for QVL lists, false 16x PCIe slots and BS oneclick OC features now too?

Increasing number of law companies specialize in running class action law suits in tech world, if there is a real issue and enough claimants to participate. Companies will be often tempted to get away with things if they feel there would not be a backlash from consumers. It's on us to be proactive citizens and take action.

Create X670E Hero support group on reddit, ask owners to report their experience and write a group email to Asus, all members CC-ed, with a request for putting the record straight on sharing lanes.

Looking at the back of the Hero board, I can see at least 10 data lanes and two (power?) lanes coming from the CPU into JHL8540 TB4 chip. This chip should receive eight DP lanes and 4 PCIe lanes. Sharing lanes without mentioning this in the manual would be a serious negligence on their part.

Have you looked into BIOS settings? I know there are a few boards that allow users to choose in BIOS between NVMe drive and USB4.

 

[Wirko]

Looking at the back of the Hero board, I can see at least 10 data lanes and two (power?) lanes coming from the CPU into JHL8540 TB4 chip. This chip should receive eight DP lanes and 4 PCIe lanes. Sharing lanes without mentioning this in the manual would be a serious negligence on their part.

To me it's surprising that bandwidth sharing is at all possible. I guess Asrock is doing it in the same dirty way as MSI, just without telling anyone:

By dirty, I mean without a hardware PCIe switch, relying on the OS to alternately enable and disable the two devices at the other end of the PCIe 5.0 x4 link.

And while MSI mentions PCIe 5.0 x2 speeds, I wouldn't assume the CPU is capable of splitting the x4 port into two x2 links. "x2" is just the apparent effect of halving the average speed.

 

[Tek-Check]

And while MSI mentions PCIe 5.0 x2 speeds, I wouldn't assume the CPU is capable of splitting the x4 port into two x2 links. "x2" is just the apparent effect of halving the average speed.

SERDES lanes in IOD can be bifurated to x8, x4, x2 and x1 configurations.
The USB4+M.2 solution by MSI is much, much better as they give users a choice in BIOS of how to run this shared connection
1. either USB4 or M.2
2. USB4 and M.2 at Gen5 x2, which is brilliant because both will run. There is already one M.2_1 runs Gen5 x4, and second, shared M.2_2 slot, will run as Gen5 x2, which is fine.

 

[Wirko]

SERDES lanes in IOD can be bifurated to x8, x4, x2 and x1 configurations.

In server CPUs, sure, and AMD proudly presented that in slides. Each set of 16 lanes can be split into as many as nine links. But in Ryzens? And Intel Core, for that matter? Have you dug up a proof or at least an indication that the hardware (IOD) supports bifurcation to x2 on any of the PCIe 5.0 lanes?

The USB4+M.2 solution by MSI is much, much better as they give users a choice in BIOS of how to run this shared connection
1. either USB4 or M.2
2. USB4 and M.2 at Gen5 x2, which is brilliant because both will run. There is already one M.2_1 runs Gen5 x4, and second, shared M.2_2 slot, will run as Gen5 x2, which is fine.

2. is exactly what @ir_cow had issues with. Issues worse than just halved bandwidth. Therefore I suspect there's no bifurcation at work. It's just the OS trying to communicate with two devices over a single point-to-point link. It can somehow be done, but not flawlessly. If there are also additional drivers that need to be installed then maybe MSI has better drivers.

 

[kapone32]

To me it's surprising that bandwidth sharing is at all possible. I guess Asrock is doing it in the same dirty way as MSI, just without telling anyone:

View attachment 368398
View attachment 368399

By dirty, I mean without a hardware PCIe switch, relying on the OS to alternately enable and disable the two devices at the other end of the PCIe 5.0 x4 link.

And while MSI mentions PCIe 5.0 x2 speeds, I wouldn't assume the CPU is capable of splitting the x4 port into two x2 links. "x2" is just the apparent effect of halving the average speed.

No I don't think so. Everywhere I read the 2 PCIe slots on the Taichi are tied to the CPU.

 

[A Computer Guy]

And while MSI mentions PCIe 5.0 x2 speeds, I wouldn't assume the CPU is capable of splitting the x4 port into two x2 links. "x2" is just the apparent effect of halving the average speed.

4750G with bifurcated x8x4x4 and using a 4 port NVMe card will do a) x4 b) n/a c) x4 d) x4 (but at half-speed, x2) so I suspect there is some capability in the CPU to do some odd stuff.

 

[kapone32]

4750G with bifurcated x8x4x4 and using a 4 port NVMe card will do a) x4 b) n/a c) x4 d) x4 (but at half-speed, x2) so I suspect there is some capability in the CPU to do some odd stuff.

There is something AMD power users want. Threadripper like it used to be. I remember getting the 1900X for less than the 2800X and get 64 lanes. I also went through 5 or 6 X399 boards (sold the systems). Imagine that the Asus STrix TRX40 board was less than the Hero. Though it was a much more flexible board. Even has a U2 adapter for the X399 variant. X570S was pretty good and X670E are good if you get the right board but this USB 4 X870E half PCIe bandwidth sucks as far as I am concerned. I PCIE slot and 1 wired to the Chipset were budget X570 boards like the Pro from MSI. Now they expect us to pay through the nose for these MBs too. Well I paid a hefty price for my X670E and the only board I will be buying in the near future will probably be A620 or whatever the latest variant is. As that machine will only be CPU mining.

 

[Tek-Check]

Have you dug up a proof or at least an indication that the hardware (IOD) supports bifurcation to x2 on any of the PCIe 5.0 lanes?

No, I haven't been researching this topic, but could look around a bit.

MSI manual states that 8500/8300 APUs work in Gen4 x4 (GPU), x4 (M.2_1) and x2 (USB4) configuration, so I'd expect to see a small PCIe switch chip around ASM4242 chip. We can confirm whether this is the case with a photo of the board with IO cover off.

Since low end Zen4 APUs can handle x2 link into USB4 chip, halving PCIe data speed to 32 Gbps over two lanes, it'd be shocking if Granite Ridge IOD on 9950X couldn't do the same.

Both USB4 and M.2_2 pathways connect to the same x4 link on CPU, but each peripheral has four separate lanes of data, as they can operate independently at full speed, if the other one is not used or if it's switched off in BIOS.

To be able to operate together at x2 mode, I'd expect to see a small PCIe switch chip. If this is the case, both could be easily tested in CrystalDisk
A. USB4 speed for PCIe data should be up to 32 Gbps minus overhead, so ~3 GB/s, as ASM4242 would downgrade x2 link from Gen5 to Gen4
B. M.2_2 should operate at the same time at up to 64 Gbps minus overhead, with Gen5 drive installed, so up to ~7 GB/s.

This can be easily tested to confirm, if someone has the board.

It's just the OS trying to communicate with two devices over a single point-to-point link

Both devices should get four physical lanes from a single PHY and can operate at x2 mode too. This suggests that a small switch should be present, so that this could be handled properly.

 

[apoklyps3]

450$ and no proper audio jacks for 5.1

 

[chrcoluk]

The motherboard industry is in a torrid state at the moment.

Why are they trying so hard to use CPU lanes for M.2 instead of the better way of doing it from the chipset? The only reason I can think of is they really want Gen 5 connectivity for M.2, have board manufacturers not been looking at user feedback and how bad Gen 5 drives are?

Absolutely no question I would rather have a Gen 4x4 slot than a 5x2 slot. Both result in a Gen 5 drive running at half of maximum speed, but the former also makes a Gen 4 drive in the slot run at half speed, whilst that would run at full speed in the latter configuration.

Its as if also they all in some kind of cartel agreement on board layout as well, in unison SATA has been gutted, chipset routing nerfed heavily, no more than 3 PCIe slots, all along side heavy use sharing.

Would be brilliant if someone came out with a "fu market" product, no USB4, taking legal battle to AMD in courts over it, only one CPU fed M.2, second and third from chipset, supply M.2 adaptors for additional M.2 from PCIe slots should the user want it, all alongside 8 SATA ports, a more compact not overbuilt money wasted VRM, under $300 without taking the mickey margins. Oh crap someone pinched me and woke me up.

 

[kapone32]

The motherboard industry is in a torrid state at the moment.

Why are they trying so hard to use CPU lanes for M.2 instead of the better way of doing it from the chipset? The only reason I can think of is they really want Gen 5 connectivity for M.2, have board manufacturers not been looking at user feedback and how bad Gen 5 drives are?

Absolutely no question I would rather have a Gen 4x4 slot than a 5x2 slot. Both result in a Gen 5 drive running at half of maximum speed, but the former also makes a Gen 4 drive in the slot run at half speed, whilst that would run at full speed in the latter configuration.

Its as if also they all in some kind of cartel agreement on board layout as well, in unison SATA has been gutted, chipset routing nerfed heavily, no more than 3 PCIe slots, all along side heavy use sharing.

Would be brilliant if someone came out with a "fu market" product, no USB4, taking legal battle to AMD in courts over it, only one CPU fed M.2, second and third from chipset, supply M.2 adaptors for additional M.2 from PCIe slots should the user want it, all alongside 8 SATA ports, a more compact not overbuilt money wasted VRM, under $300 without taking the mickey margins. Oh crap someone pinched me and woke me up.

The problem with this is that your feelings would not hold up in court. You would probably be told to save your pennies and buy an HEDT system or get a used TRX40 system. Nothing is preventing anyone from getting more PCIe lanes than money. As far as feelings go I agree that USB4 is not necessary at the high end but the Thunderbolt noise contributed to that as well as the narrative that you don't need more PCIe lanes because Multi GPU is dead. Like that is the only thing you can put in a PCie slot. Now all of them are pumping TB5 add in cards like you need further Display output than the 4 that come on every single GPU. Out of touch indeed. Then MSI drops a bomb with that new DATAmat that makes External storage via USB moot

 

[chrcoluk]

The problem with this is that your feelings would not hold up in court. You would probably be told to save your pennies and buy an HEDT system or get a used TRX40 system. Nothing is preventing anyone from getting more PCIe lanes than money. As far as feelings go I agree that USB4 is not necessary at the high end but the Thunderbolt noise contributed to that as well as the narrative that you don't need more PCIe lanes because Multi GPU is dead. Like that is the only thing you can put in a PCie slot. Now all of them are pumping TB5 add in cards like you need further Display output than the 4 that come on every single GPU. Out of touch indeed. Then MSI drops a bomb with that new DATAmat that makes External storage via USB moot

The court comment was related to a board manufacturer not adhering to the likely contracted USB4. The court wouldnt care less about HEDT or anything else. But obviously would enforce the contracted agreement.

I do think this commonality approach is to further clear the waters between different product lines which is related to your point of just buy one of those different types of products, so yes threadripper or server type systems.

 

[Aleksandar_038]

The problem with this is that your feelings would not hold up in court. You would probably be told to save your pennies and buy an HEDT system or get a used TRX40 system. Nothing is preventing anyone from getting more PCIe lanes than money. As far as feelings go I agree that USB4 is not necessary at the high end but the Thunderbolt noise contributed to that as well as the narrative that you don't need more PCIe lanes because Multi GPU is dead. Like that is the only thing you can put in a PCie slot. Now all of them are pumping TB5 add in cards like you need further Display output than the 4 that come on every single GPU. Out of touch indeed. Then MSI drops a bomb with that new DATAmat that makes External storage via USB moot

So, in order to be able to use more than 2 drives, you need HEDT?

First, M2 is so missed concept on desktop PC. I
Second, PC is all about expandability and modularity - those things are gone with modern boards and chipsets.
Third, if M2 is really necessity, put them on DAMN PCIe expansion card and bring back at least a bit of versatility in PC space.
Fourth, let's go back to making boards for majority of users - and majority of users need one or two high-speed drives for apps and rest can be damn HDD for storage, decent cooling but no fancy heatsinks and three tons of lights etc, etc... And this crazy five-slot M2 RGB-monsters can be 1% of market... I think everybody would be happier.

 

[ir_cow]

So, in order to be able to use more than 2 drives, you need HEDT?

First, M2 is so missed concept on desktop PC. I
Second, PC is all about expandability and modularity - those things are gone with modern boards and chipsets.
Third, if M2 is really necessity, put them on DAMN PCIe expansion card and bring back at least a bit of versatility in PC space.
Fourth, let's go back to making boards for majority of users - and majority of users need one or two high-speed drives for apps and rest can be damn HDD for storage, decent cooling but no fancy heatsinks and three tons of lights etc, etc... And this crazy five-slot M2 RGB-monsters can be 1% of market... I think everybody would be happier.

Seems like you need a workstation motherboard.

 

[Aleksandar_038]

Seems like you need a workstation motherboard.

Well, now you are talking. If I want more than 2 drives and semi-decent expandability, desktop ATX board is not enough, and instead I need workstation board? That is downright crazy... It completely negates very concept of desktop PC (like I said, it is obviously already dead, just it is not official).

 

[ir_cow]

Market says consumers need storage, not expansion slots. So all those extra lanes are used in M.2 bus.

Since USB, NIC, Audio is all built in, consumer MBs don't need 6 slots anymore .Only 1 for the GPU. So the segment for expansion slots is now exclusive to workstations where add-on cards are for specific items.

 

[Aleksandar_038]

Market says consumers need storage, not expansion slots. So all those extra lanes are used in M.2 bus.

Since USB, NIC, Audio is all built in, consumer MBs don't need 6 slots anymore .Only 1 for the GPU. So the segment for expansion slots is now exclusive to workstations where add-on cards are for specific items.

Multiple M2 then end with bandwith sharing, performance drops, overheating since it is not a standard fit for high performance desktop pc at all...
But like I said, that means that flexibility and expandability of PC platform are history.
That is also OK, times change, but prices gone 3x or 4x up, for that kinde of change? Something does not add, which is general consensus when modern motherboards are considered...

 

[Assimilator]

Multiple M2 then end with bandwith sharing, performance drops, overheating since it is not a standard fit for high performance desktop pc at all...
But like I said, that means that flexibility and expandability of PC platform are history.
That is also OK, times change, but prices gone 3x or 4x up, for that kinde of change? Something does not add, which is general consensus when modern motherboards are considered...

It's a big scam. PCs as we know them are dead, connectivity that used to be commonplace is now something you have to pay through the nose for.

 

[besthijacker]

Can someone tell me how on earth do you remove M1 and M2 heatsink? I follow the instructions but it's not coming out at all lol

 

[_roman_]

But like I said, that means that flexibility and expandability of PC platform are history.

USB and Tunderbolt offer some flexibility. Gladly the days of the serial and parallel interface and firewire are gone.

I dislike USB-C connector as that is a fragile connector. I had to trash a few days ago another usb-c cable.

I'm kinda surprised that the usb audio interface work flawless, although it is a windows only audio usb sound card.

..

consumer MBs don't need 6 slots anymore

People are buying mainboards which are small with only one graphic card slot and two DRAM slots.
Companies see that those uatx and iatx mainboards sell very well with basically no connection at all.