Dissatisfied With Current AIO - Buy a different one or go Air?

[VuurVOS]

@Gmr_Chick Can you share your fan curve with us. Do you use the header EC_TEMP1 for an external temperature sensor?

 

[AusWolf]

Don't make the easy mistake of correlating temperature and power consumption (or rated TDP of a cooler) directly.

Thermal density matters. If you have a cooler that's capable of removing one Watt per square millimetre, for example, and CPUs with different die sizes, then you will have different temperatures on those CPUs with the same cooler at the same exact power consumption. It's not even that simple, either - since that gross oversimplification makes the incorrect assumption that power is consumed and converted into heat evenly across the entire die.

In reality:

• the cooler's capability to remove heat from different parts of the coldplate is a complex equation of fluid thermodynamics, pump flow rates, temperature gradients, temperature deltas, transfer efficiencies, etc.
• the CPU's "temperature reading" is just the hottest spot at any point in time, as the boost algorithm juggles the lion's share of the power consumption around a few different cores to spread out the heat as much as possible. The size of the hotspot area and their power consumption are variables in constant flux.
• the IHS and solder/paste adds a temperature delta between the die and the coldplate because it's a solid with its own thermal conductivity and temperature gradient based on its thickness. We have plenty of empirical data to show that de-lidding to remove the IHS from the equation is good for a 10-20% reduction in temperatures, and for AM5 with its thick IHS, it's closer to 20%.

Coolers that claim a TDP rating are confusing people, mainly because those TDP ratings are estimates based on a typical CPU at the time the rating was given, and presumably at max fan RPM and TJMax of the CPU before throttling. The rating is invalid for other CPUs, other fan speeds, and for anyone not wanting to run their CPU at the maximum non-throttling temperature.

Watts/mm^2 at a given noise rating and ambient delta would be far more useful and accurate but that's just going to confuse people even more than stamping "180W cooler" on the side of the box!

You're completely right - I just wanted to skip the technical details. I guess I oversimplified it.

For real.
There's no need to run at 142W PPT (105W TDP) for a 7700X. I don't have a 7700X to try, and silicon lottery is a thing, but I would start my tuning at a PPT of 115W (equivalent to an 85W TDP) and go from there.

Doing a 95 W TDP on a 7700X loses about 5% performance - barely noticeable in real life (if at all). With 65 W, it's basically a 7700 non-X, which is still indistinguishable from the "real stuff". The release of all the non-X parts made the X ones completely obsolete, imo.

I prefer playing with the pre-set TDP limits instead of PPT because the TDP toggle lowers TDC and EDC limits, too.

I like using FanControl to tune fan profiles on the fly, but then set in the BIOS so it's not reliant of software.
IMO on AM5 it's not worth fighting the 95C temperature target. Just assume your CPU will run at 95C and tune your noise levels to be acceptable to you at that temperature.

Yes, you can overkill the cooling solution and prevent it from ever hitting 95C even under full load, but it's wasteful and most AIOs don't have flow rates or coldplate fins good enough to keep those hotspots in check through the chonky AM5 IHS.

Or you can just lower your TDP and never go anywhere near 95 °C by sacrificing a couple % performance.

 

[Chomiq]

I like using FanControl to tune fan profiles on the fly, but then set in the BIOS so it's not reliant of software.
IMO on AM5 it's not worth fighting the 95C temperature target. Just assume your CPU will run at 95C and tune your noise levels to be acceptable to you at that temperature.

Yes, you can overkill the cooling solution and prevent it from ever hitting 95C even under full load, but it's wasteful and most AIOs don't have flow rates or coldplate fins good enough to keep those hotspots in check through the chonky AM5 IHS.

I'm setting my front and rear fan speeds based on GPU temp sensors. BIOS can't do that. FanControl can.

 

[AusWolf]

I'm setting my front and rear fan speeds based on GPU temp sensors. BIOS can't do that.

I set mine based on "system" temperature. I don't know what it means, but it gets warmer as my GPU dumps more heat into the case, so I'm OK.

 

[Chrispy_]

You're completely right - I just wanted to skip the technical details. I guess I oversimplified it.


Doing a 95 W TDP on a 7700X loses about 5% performance - barely noticeable in real life (if at all). With 65 W, it's basically a 7700 non-X, which is still indistinguishable from the "real stuff". The release of all the non-X parts made the X ones completely obsolete, imo.

I prefer playing with the pre-set TDP limits instead of PPT because the TDP toggle lowers TDC and EDC limits, too.


Or you can just lower your TDP and never go anywhere near 95 °C by sacrificing a couple % performance.

TDC is irrelevant, it's just the throttle current if your cooling is so terrible that it can't even stay under max temp at base clocks.
EDC is relevant to single-core performance, and very much worth manually tuning if you have the time and inclination to do so. In saying that, 95W ECO mode for a 7700X sounds like it's going to be in the right ballpark which ain't bad for a one-button adjustment.

 

[Dan848]

Check YouTube for proper radiator placement. You might want to start here:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Computer+CPU+Cooler+Proper+Radiator+Placement+youtube.com

 

[Ruru]

Personally it's either air or custom loop for me. Got tired of AIOs since you'll never know if there's a defective batch of an AIO unit like we've seen several times in recent years.

Just get a good air cooler, I'd probably just go all-in and get a high-end Noctua as they always make mounting hardware for new sockets, so you can use that cooler practically forever.

 

[Dan.G]

Air cooling with a good thermal paste applied should do the trick.
I fancy SilentiumPC (Endorfy) coolers. I got a Spartan 5 running between 400 - 600 RPM, but it's only cooling an i3-12100F.
Almost dead silent. Used pre-applied thermal paste, too.

 

[R0H1T]

Meh, just do what most AMD Intel users do

Spoiler

Of course there's other cheaper options which may help a little/lot depending on where the issue is like changing thermal paste to LM or the recent "sensation" PTM7950.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

If your fans are boosting on basic tasks what are your temps? Zen 4 has higher operating temps and you need to adjust your fan curve to match it. Download FanControl and play with setting it up to follow specific sensors.

Took a screenshot of HWINFO while browsing TPU:

Also, thank you for the Fan Control. Didn't even know that program was a thing. I'll give it a try since the Fan Control module on my Gigabyte Control Center seemingly vanished for no reason

@Gmr_Chick Can you share your fan curve with us. Do you use the header EC_TEMP1 for an external temperature sensor?

I know my board came with two Themistor cables but I didn't bother hooking them up to their corresponding headers....

Check YouTube for proper radiator placement. You might want to start here:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Computer+CPU+Cooler+Proper+Radiator+Placement+youtube.com

I've got my radiator mounted to the top of my case, so no worries there.

 

[tabascosauz]

Took a screenshot of HWINFO while browsing TPU:

Looks great. Better if you include fan speed readouts in that screenshot. If you hear fan speed changes at these temps, you really need to flatten out your fan curve. That's not anything you need to go to third party software for, just do it in BIOS.

iirc Gigabyte does not allow you to quite set whatever you please like Asus' Q-fan text interface does, but you can still push the last curve point out as far as possible (e.g. 100C), the second last curve point also as far as possible and at whatever speed you want (e.g. 95C + 50%), then either flat or a very slight slope for the rest (e.g. 20C + 40%, 50C + 45%). 7700X barely puts out any wattage. Gigabyte doesn't allow linking to many alternative temp sources but as long as you set a flat curve there shouldn't be any need for other sources than CPU.

 

[VuurVOS]

I know my board came with two Themistor cables but I didn't bother hooking them up to their corresponding headers....

Try to put the thermistor cable somewhere on the radiator where you can try to monitor the water temperature.
If the water gets hot, the fan needs to run quicker This prevents to fans to spin up quickly with the slightes cpu load.

I use the thermistor cables to measure my memory temperature. If it gets above 50 degrees, the fan above the memory will run quicker.

 

[AusWolf]

Looks great. Better if you include fan speed readouts in that screenshot. If you hear fan speed changes at these temps, you really need to flatten out your fan curve. That's not anything you need to go to third party software for, just do it in BIOS.

iirc Gigabyte does not allow you to quite set whatever you please like Asus' Q-fan text interface does, but you can still push the last curve point out as far as possible (e.g. 100C), the second last curve point also as far as possible and at whatever speed you want (e.g. 95C + 50%), then either flat or a very slight slope for the rest (e.g. 20C + 40%, 50C + 45%). 7700X barely puts out any wattage. Gigabyte doesn't allow linking to many alternative temp sources but as long as you set a flat curve there shouldn't be any need for other sources than CPU.

Even though Asus's BIOS is my favourite from all the vendors, nothing beats MSi's fan control, imo. You can adjust literally everything in the curve, you have a zero-RPM option with PWM fans as well (which Asus doesn't have), you can assign any fan to any temperature value, and you also have a step-up and step-down adjustment which controls how sensitive your fan speed should be to small fluctuations in temperature.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

So earlier this evening I swapped out the stock Be Quiet fans that came with my AIO with some Arctic P12 ARGB fans I had around, and played with fan curves a bit (I'll give it to ASUS, their fan control software is amazing; Gigabyte's not so much) and noise is way better now that it was with the stock fans. I'm going to play around with the curves a bit more tomorrow, but temps and noise both seem to be good for me now

 

[R0H1T]

Even though Asus's BIOS is my favourite from all the vendors, nothing beats MSi's fan control, imo. You can adjust literally everything in the curve, you have a zero-RPM option with PWM fans as well (which Asus doesn't have), you can assign any fan to any temperature value, and you also have a step-up and step-down adjustment which controls how sensitive your fan speed should be to small fluctuations in temperature.

They're OK for the price they charge, a lot of these "features" should really be standard across the industry! Why the heck do you need to choose between MB vendors for such simple things is beyond me

 

[tabascosauz]

Even though Asus's BIOS is my favourite from all the vendors, nothing beats MSi's fan control, imo. You can adjust literally everything in the curve, you have a zero-RPM option with PWM fans as well (which Asus doesn't have), you can assign any of your fans to any temperature value and you also have a step-up and step-down adjustment which controls how sensitive your fan speed should be to small fluctuations in temperature.

I have used the fan ramp speed feature in MSI and it was okay I guess, as with Gigabyte's ("Temperature Interval"). Q-fan has the same hysteresis controls. In any case, flattening out the curve works far better and more consistently to solve the changing fan speed issue, than anything else offered in all 3 vendors' BIOSes. Asus' problem is that the entire actual Q-fan interface is in numbers and not the complete ass fan curve GUI, so most people don't actually realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.

So earlier this evening I swapped out the stock Be Quiet fans that came with my AIO with some Arctic P12 ARGB fans I had around, and played with fan curves a bit (I'll give it to ASUS, their fan control software is amazing; Gigabyte's not so much) and noise is way better now that it was with the stock fans. I'm going to play around with the curves a bit more tomorrow, but temps and noise both seem to be good for me now

they do bundle their cheapo fans (Pure Wings) with their cheaper AIOs, so I guess those spinners just aren't that good.

If you aren't already, try having the fans on the opposite side of the case (ie. AIO as exhaust, fans as push, rad mounted to the case). A lot of fans change dramatically in noise when no longer pressed up against restriction.

 

[AusWolf]

I have used the fan ramp speed feature in MSI and it was okay I guess, as with Gigabyte's ("Temperature Interval"). Q-fan has the same hysteresis controls. In any case, flattening out the curve works far better and more consistently to solve the changing fan speed issue, than anything else offered in all 3 vendors' BIOSes. Asus' problem is that the entire actual Q-fan interface is in numbers and not the complete ass fan curve GUI, so most people don't actually realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I think the fan ramp-up/ramp-down setting is especially useful for liquid cooling, where it takes a bit of time for your liquid to saturate in heat. There's no use having some jet engine noises for a couple of seconds to cool a still cold liquid while your CPU fires up Windows update, for example.

 

[Mussels]

If the pump and fan headers are seperate, make sure the pumps at 100% and the fans and pump are on PWM headers (and set to PWM in the BIOS)

Sounds like something was wrong with the fan curve (and/or pump curve) for it to burst speeds like that
you want it to almost flat at the highest setting you like, at the edge of being audible - and having a boost at the end for over-heating situations

so if 60% for the fans was audible but not annoying, you'd want that 60% upto something like 85c, then 85c to 100c has the fans curve upto 100% - so when you hear it, you know somethings wrong

I think the fan ramp-up/ramp-down setting is especially useful for liquid cooling, where it takes a bit of time for your liquid to saturate in heat. There's no use having some jet engine noises for a couple of seconds to cool a still cold liquid while your CPU fires up Windows update, for example.

ramp times are awesome, especially when it comes to fans that simply take time to spin up and down (bigger fans, or high RPM fans are like this) - if the fans were trying to change RPM before they even reached the new target, you can get some weird noises and wild up and downs

 

[Waldorf]

@Gmr_Chick
are you running the aio as exhaust, dumping the heat outside the case?
i know arctic fans prefer pull setup, between the rad and case, not pushing.

i would go with the alphacool aio.
you will get a copper rad (how many aio have those?), and modular desgn using G1/4 connections,
so its easy to replace/upgrade stuff.
i used it multiple times as base, then swapping components later.

on mine, i carried over the rad, used a D5 and XSPC cpu block clones,
and changed tubing to primo 3/4in OD.
my crappy (bronze) 5800X runs 80C on full load (no PBO2).

lots of ppl ignore the fact that LC has 2 things air cant (really) do:
dump heat straight outside the case, thus drastically lowering temps for vrms/pmw/chip/gpu/drives.

most gpus will boost clocks longer/higher if they dont have to re-breath the hot air inside the case
(without fans running at turbine speed, just to exchange case air).

ignoring the lower sound profile at any given load (as thats not always a priority for ppl)


Eisbaer 280

360


@Kissamies
thats usually Asetek (based) designs (pump), other brands with their own (designed) stuff usually dont have issues.

 

[kapone32]

@Gmr_Chick
are you running the aio as exhaust, dumping the heat outside the case?
i know arctic fans prefer pull setup, between the rad and case, not pushing.

i would go with the alphacool aio.
you will get a copper rad (how many aio have those?), and modular desgn using G1/4 connections,
so its easy to replace/upgrade stuff.
i used it multiple times as base, then swapping components later.

on mine, i carried over the rad, used a D5 and XSPC cpu block clones,
and changed tubing to primo 3/4in OD.
my crappy (bronze) 5800X runs 80C on full load (no PBO2).

lots of ppl ignore the fact that LC has 2 things air cant (really) do:

dump heat straight outside the case, thus drastically lowering temps for vrms/pmw/chip/gpu/drives
most gpus will boost clocks longer/higher if they dont have to re-breath the hot air inside the case
(without fans running at turbine speed, just to exchange case air).
or get a similar transfer rate (air vs water).

ignoring sound levels at load for a moment

Eisbaer 280

360


@Kissamies
thats usually Asetek (based) designs (pump), other brands with their own (designed) stuff usually dont have issues.

The Eisbear lineup is the most flexible AIO on the market. I even had one connected to an NVME drive as well. I don't use the fans (mine was bought in 2019) but the new ones look capable. Arctic are fine for fans in terms of price and also performance but exemplary in features,

 

[Gmr_Chick]

I have used the fan ramp speed feature in MSI and it was okay I guess, as with Gigabyte's ("Temperature Interval"). Q-fan has the same hysteresis controls. In any case, flattening out the curve works far better and more consistently to solve the changing fan speed issue, than anything else offered in all 3 vendors' BIOSes. Asus' problem is that the entire actual Q-fan interface is in numbers and not the complete ass fan curve GUI, so most people don't actually realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.



they do bundle their cheapo fans (Pure Wings) with their cheaper AIOs, so I guess those spinners just aren't that good.

If you aren't already, try having the fans on the opposite side of the case (ie. AIO as exhaust, fans as push, rad mounted to the case). A lot of fans change dramatically in noise when no longer pressed up against restriction.

I think the fans that came with my AIO are the high-RPM variants of the Light Wings fans. They feel really hefty and well built, with nice lighting but they are a bit loud at higher speed. Plus you can't daisy chain them. The difference in noise between them and the Silent Wings 4's I have as intake and exhaust on my case is night and day. Helps that the SW4's are also 140mm.

 

[bobbybluz]

I'm cooling my 12600K rig at 5.3GHz with an externally mounted Arctic Liquid Freezer II 240 using 4 of the stock Arctic fans in push/pull. It's surprisingly quiet and works great. In the next week or so I'll do a post on various ways to externally do AIO's with both a minimum of work as well as having to do cutting with the Dremel. With some cases you can just bolt them in with no cutting required (My Corsair Graphite 780T will take a 360mm radiator externally just by leaving the top panel off. I have a LF II 280 with SilverStone FHP-141's on it at the moment. I got the case for $40 in mint condition off the local Craigslist earlier this year).

I've been doing external radiator mounting since Corsair came out with their first AIO's. As I've mentioned previously I've spoken with Arctic about the advantages of external radiator/fan mounting and they agree 100%. Much more space inside the case and the radiator is separated from the hot environment inside the case plus any thickness radiator and fans can be used.

 

[Waldorf]

@bobbybluz
has not much to do with the rad being outside the case, but the lower air temps you have (on the outside).
anyone ever used the resorator, will know how much difference it makes having external rad, but i got tired of it taking up space, being limited transporting the rig.

now there are enough cases that allow for top/side mounting rads right next to intake, so hot air from other parts wont reach it,
or even have separate "zones", making outside mounting more or less irrelevant (temp wise), and any modding unneeded.

and while i love artic fans/coolers, they should use copper rads, before talking about cooler perf.
one of two reason i got the alphacool eisbaer instead, as i even run a 2080S in the same loop, now completely removing any heat from the case,
and the rad can stay inside (top/rear)..

 

[FoulOnWhite]

I use a AQ OCTO for my fan control, then just set the fans to ramp with a sensor, water temp, GPU temp etc, works well

 

[Waldorf]

one reason i like investing in above avg boards, as not just power/cooling is improved,
but fan/pump control (especially on MSI) can do everything the sw does (maybe less "detailed", e.g. curve control).