Dissatisfied With Current AIO - Buy a different one or go Air?

[TheGeneral]

I just got the Pure Loop 2 FX 360 for my 7950x, and I'm about to return it. I don't think the pump is even working. I've tried topping it off, re-mounting it, 3 different thermal pastes. I even swapped it for a Slim Rock cooler I had laying around, and it performed better despite the fans blowing in the wrong direction! This was BeQuiet's first attempt at an AIO and I'm just not interested in being a beta tester for this.

 

[claes]

The “2” is in the name because it’s the second generation. I’d consider RMA’ing or just exchanging it, sounds like you got a dud. Haven’t heard complaints about them and they’re generally well reviewed.

 

[AusWolf]

I just got the Pure Loop 2 FX 360 for my 7950x, and I'm about to return it. I don't think the pump is even working. I've tried topping it off, re-mounting it, 3 different thermal pastes. I even swapped it for a Slim Rock cooler I had laying around, and it performed better despite the fans blowing in the wrong direction! This was BeQuiet's first attempt at an AIO and I'm just not interested in being a beta tester for this.

I had the same experience with a Silent Loop 2 280 mm, which worked brilliantly on 3 different CPUs before it turned out to be absolute garbage on the 7800X3D. I don't know why this is. There must be something with the coldplate design, or the liquid flow, or I don't know.

 

[Mussels]

I had the same experience with a Silent Loop 2 280 mm, which worked brilliantly on 3 different CPUs before it turned out to be absolute garbage on the 7800X3D. I don't know why this is. There must be something with the coldplate design, or the liquid flow, or I don't know.

AM4 coolers on AM5 can be over-tightened, tilting the cooler too far either side. They can feel firmly in place, but slanted and uneven on the CPU


the only solution is being more careful with the install and not over tightening, it's making people have to treat AIO's and air coolers like people with waterblocks have always had to and not everyone knows how to do it right


(Either press down on the cooler or let gravity do it, and do a loose finger tightening first, then take turns with the screws and small adjustments - never tighten one more than the others, and there is no need to 'bottom out' the screws if its tight and not moving at all)

 

[AusWolf]

AM4 coolers on AM5 can be over-tightened, tilting the cooler too far either side. They can feel firmly in place, but slanted and uneven on the CPU


the only solution is being more careful with the install and not over tightening, it's making people have to treat AIO's and air coolers like people with waterblocks have always had to and not everyone knows how to do it right


(Either press down on the cooler or let gravity do it, and do a loose finger tightening first, then take turns with the screws and small adjustments - never tighten one more than the others, and there is no need to 'bottom out' the screws if its tight and not moving at all)

I'm not saying you're wrong (you may be absolutely right), but oddly enough, I didn't have this problem with the 7700X.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

I always press down on the cooler/block, but with this Pure Loop 2 FX, finger tightening of the two screws on the top and bottom of the block isn't possible (they don't stick out enough) so I have to alternate my screwdriver from top to bottom. Carefully, of course.

On the subject of AIO cold plates and AM5, it's interesting to note that Arctic claims their AIOs are designed specifically with AM5 in mind, but I'm not sure they include an offset bracket with their newer revisions that mounts the block closer to the bottom where the CCD(s) are, or if they just be blowin smoke.

@tabascosauz - thoughts on the AK500/Zero Dark?

 

[tabascosauz]

@tabascosauz - thoughts on the AK500/Zero Dark?

If the AK400 is comparable to U12S Redux and AK620 is PA120-level, then AK500 is roughly analogous to a U12A with less heatpipes. And only 1 fan. If the clearance and price really matters that much to you (AK500 is offset on one side like U12A), then it shouldn't have any problems with a 7700X.

That said, looking at the pictures it doesn't seem like 44mm Trident Z5 should be much of a problem for AK620 either on a 4DIMM board. Maybe move the front fan up ever so slightly. It's more noticeable on PA120 especially PA120SE/PS120SE maybe due to lower heatsink height, or a thinner/lack of aesthetic top piece adding height.

Zero Dark is just their fin stacks in a black color scheme.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

If the AK400 is comparable to U12S Redux and AK620 is PA120-level, then AK500 is roughly analogous to a U12A with less heatpipes. And only 1 fan. If the clearance and price really matters that much to you (AK500 is offset on one side like U12A), then it shouldn't have any problems with a 7700X.

That said, looking at the pictures it doesn't seem like 44mm Trident Z5 should be much of a problem for AK620 either on a 4DIMM board. Maybe move the front fan up ever so slightly. It's more noticeable on PA120 especially PA120SE/PS120SE maybe due to lower heatsink height, or a thinner/lack of aesthetic top piece adding height.

Zero Dark is just their fin stacks in a black color scheme.

You're a gem as always, Tabbie!

I'll take a look at the AK620 again. The U12A is nice, but once I factor in the cost for it + the offset brackets + the top cover, it's more expensive than DeepCool's LT720 and Arctic's LF II 360mm AIO.

 

[freeagent]

If looking at performance, is Noctua even worth looking at in 2023?

The two best air coolers that I have used in the last 2 years are the Frost Commander 140, and the Phantom Spirit 120SE. Great coolers. PA120 is ok too, it handles my X3D with no troubles, and temps that would make AIO owners envious

But.. I don't think you can really go wrong with any modern cooler made within the life of Zen 3.

 

[tabascosauz]

If looking at performance, is Noctua even worth looking at in 2023?

The two best air coolers that I have used in the last 2 years are the Frost Commander 140, and the Phantom Spirit 120SE. Great coolers. PA120 is ok too, it handles my X3D with no troubles, and temps that would make AIO owners envious

But.. I don't think you can really go wrong with any modern cooler made within the life of Zen 3.

Still kinda depends on what you value. Value for dollar, of course, unbeatable. Availability, warranty and support, and quality control are all boxes that Thermalright definitely does NOT tick. After providing some quick information, Noctua will send you a new cooler or fan via UPS Saver all the way from Austria, if necessary. Thermalright didn't even have an email on their contact page for a while (redirected to Corsair).

Deepcool is actually starting to make a dent in all those areas. They are available in stores in Canada, they do have pretty unique aesthetics and ideas, warranty and support appears to be getting there at a first glance, quality control is an unknown but surely it's not hard to beat Thermalright. If they can offer an offset bracket, that will be the cherry on top. It's just that while Deepcool is cheaper than Noctua, it's really not cheaper by as much as Thermalright (we don't count the highway robbery U12A Chromax).

 

[Chrispy_]

AM4 coolers on AM5 can be over-tightened, tilting the cooler too far either side. They can feel firmly in place, but slanted and uneven on the CPU


the only solution is being more careful with the install and not over tightening, it's making people have to treat AIO's and air coolers like people with waterblocks have always had to and not everyone knows how to do it right


(Either press down on the cooler or let gravity do it, and do a loose finger tightening first, then take turns with the screws and small adjustments - never tighten one more than the others, and there is no need to 'bottom out' the screws if its tight and not moving at all)

Don't think that's possible with the BeQuiet AIO mounting.

I've only installed one (because I hate AIOs in general, but also because I thought the BeQuiet mounting was utter BS so didn't buy any more of them), and my verdict was that it's impossible to tell how much mounting pressure you have.

The mounting brackets screwed to the board seem fine, but the block just screws into it with two captive screws. There aren't sprung screws to even out the pressure between the two sides and because the screws are captive there's no way to push the block down and feel for the bite/pressure point when manually tightening on each side. You basically have to send it and hope it's good, which relies on the board flexing evenly between the mounting holes (unlikely to be true). When I tightened down both sides the temps were awful - hitting 90C on AM4 with ease. I removed the block to inspect the paste and it had all been squeezed out to the top, despite me adjusting both sides one turn at a time. I re-applied and tightened the bottom screw in all the way, and then out two full turns, and temps were high 80's. Not great, but not throttling.

Temperatures on that thing (Pure Loop 1 280mm) were never great IMO, but halving the fan speed or pump speed changed nothing, leading me to believe it was mounting problems holding back everything else. I'm pretty sure my Alphacool setup never hit 80C even when I was running the CPU on a single 140mm radiator. My Alpahcool isn't magic or special (I have the entry-level eisblock) but the mounting system is robust and I can easily dial in a great mounting pressure by pressing the block down and just lightly tightening all corners to the exact same bite point before adding 1 turn.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

Don't think that's possible with the BeQuiet AIO mounting.

I've only installed one (because I hate AIOs in general, but also because I thought the BeQuiet mounting was utter BS so didn't buy any more of them), and my verdict was that it's impossible to tell how much mounting pressure you have.

The mounting brackets screwed to the board seem fine, but the block just screws into it with two captive screws. There aren't sprung screws to even out the pressure between the two sides and because the screws are captive there's no way to push the block down and feel for the bite/pressure point when manually tightening on each side. You basically have to send it and hope it's good, which relies on the board flexing evenly between the mounting holes (unlikely to be true). When I tightened down both sides the temps were awful - hitting 90C on AM4 with ease. I removed the block to inspect the paste and it had all been squeezed out to the top, despite me adjusting both sides one turn at a time. I re-applied and tightened the bottom screw in all the way, and then out two full turns, and temps were high 80's. Not great, but not throttling.

Temperatures on that thing (Pure Loop 1 280mm) were never great IMO, but halving the fan speed or pump speed changed nothing, leading me to believe it was mounting problems holding back everything else. I'm pretty sure my Alphacool setup never hit 80C even when I was running the CPU on a single 140mm radiator. My Alpahcool isn't magic or special (I have the entry-level eisblock) but the mounting system is robust and I can easily dial in a great mounting pressure by pressing the block down and just lightly tightening all corners to the exact same bite point before adding 1 turn.

Since the Pure Loop 2 FX is just a Pure Loop 2 at its core, I can confirm this to be accurate. And since there's no way to tell when you've hit the comfy spot between a good seal and tightness, and the AM5 socket makes me all kinds of nervous in the same way as any Intel socket ever has, I worry about over-tightning the captive screws on the block despite being careful - too much pressure and I'll risk bending the socket pins.

 

[Chrispy_]

Since the Pure Loop 2 FX is just a Pure Loop 2 at its core, I can confirm this to be accurate. And since there's no way to tell when you've hit the comfy spot between a good seal and tightness, and the AM5 socket makes me all kinds of nervous in the same way as any Intel socket ever has, I worry about over-tightning the captive screws on the block despite being careful - too much pressure and I'll risk bending the socket pins.

I couldn't be arsed to waste time on it, I left it at "good enough" and dropped the PPT from 142W to 115W to compensate for the dubious mounting.

However, if I'd had the time and the inclination, and enough thermal paste, you could trial-and-error a good, even mount by blobbing a small pea of paste dead-center mounting what you think is even, making careful note of how many turns per side since the thread starts, and then removing the cooler to see how evenly the paste spread. Clean both CPU and coldplate, then repeat until you get the perfect mount or until your patience wears out.

Cinebench R23 is as good a test as any - if you can keep it from reaching 95C on a multi-threaded render then you've got a good setup, since that's not a trivial feat. If you have to drop the PPT slightly to achieve that, then you're not really losing much, since the last 20% of the power budget is well beyond the point of diminishing returns on the efficiency scale.

 

[Mussels]

I'm not saying you're wrong (you may be absolutely right), but oddly enough, I didn't have this problem with the 7700X.

It only takes a small difference in mounting pressure to occure and it may definitely not be your issue
It sometimes as simple as a slightly differently shaped IHS, or you moved a single cable around so now you put the cooler on from a different angle.

TPU's reviews show the 7800x3D uses less power in multithreaded tasks than the 7700x - yours really should not be hotter. Is your wattages like the TPU review, or going whoosh?

It's not that old bug like on AM4 where you have to load optimised defaults after installing a new CPU, is it? I had the 5800x settings try to apply to the x3D despite clearing the CMOS, until I did that.

 

[AusWolf]

It only takes a small difference in mounting pressure to occure and it may definitely not be your issue
It sometimes as simple as a slightly differently shaped IHS, or you moved a single cable around so now you put the cooler on from a different angle.

TPU's reviews show the 7800x3D uses less power in multithreaded tasks than the 7700x - yours really should not be hotter. Is your wattages like the TPU review, or going whoosh?
View attachment 307133

Yep, wattages are in check.
The 7700X maxed out its 142 W PPT, but the 7800X3D could only do around 50 W and 4400 MHz with the AIO at throttling temp. It does 80-85 W and constant 4800 MHz with the Dark Rock 4 at 83-84 °C.

It's not that old bug like on AM4 where you have to load optimised defaults after installing a new CPU, is it? I had the 5800x settings try to apply to the x3D despite clearing the CMOS, until I did that.

I thought the board loaded optimized defaults by itself. I might have to check this.

 

[Pictus]

You're a gem as always, Tabbie!

I'll take a look at the AK620 again. The U12A is nice, but once I factor in the cost for it + the offset brackets + the top cover, it's more expensive than DeepCool's LT720 and Arctic's LF II 360mm AIO.

Never tested but people complain about AK620 fans having resonance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=AK620+resonance

Maybe this is an option

I would try move the middle fan to the back.

http://imgur.com/gOzKRnB

Sometimes adding some space between the fan
and the heatsink improves the noise. YMWV
Here I used hot glue gun 12mm sticks for the back fan.

-----------

BTW, for anyone interested, I got one CM Mobius 140P and I like.

 

[Mussels]

I thought the board loaded optimized defaults by itself. I might have to check this.

It's meant to, but it's something that was made clear was happening when i moved to the x3D since i could reproduce it.

The BIOS would warn about a CPU change and TPM keys and blahblah, but then it had all the OC'ing options enabled long before they actually were - loading optimised defaults removed them and clued me in that this was likely why people had issues with reviews and CPU changes.

You also can't use BIOS flashback without optimised defaults or a CMOS clear on most boards now, and AM4 wasnt like that originally - something changed over time



sounds like the coolers either had settings change (pump speed, etc), or its bad contact - if its an IHS contact issue it may not be something you can fix without an offset adjustment, or maybe lapping

 

[AusWolf]

It's meant to, but it's something that was made clear was happening when i moved to the x3D since i could reproduce it.

The BIOS would warn about a CPU change and TPM keys and blahblah, but then it had all the OC'ing options enabled long before they actually were - loading optimised defaults removed them and clued me in that this was likely why people had issues with reviews and CPU changes.

You also can't use BIOS flashback without optimised defaults or a CMOS clear on most boards now, and AM4 wasnt like that originally - something changed over time

But I didn't have any OC on the 7700X, and then I went through the BIOS to make sure everything is on Auto with the 7800X3D. Does the BIOS have some invisible settings that could have got stuck?

sounds like the coolers either had settings change (pump speed, etc), or its bad contact - if its an IHS contact issue it may not be something you can fix without an offset adjustment, or maybe lapping

I tried an offset mount with the AIO. It didn't help.

 

[Mussels]

But I didn't have any OC on the 7700X, and then I went through the BIOS to make sure everything is on Auto with the 7800X3D. Does the BIOS have some invisible settings that could have got stuck?


I tried an offset mount with the AIO. It didn't help.

Yes, that's the question - did something get stuck, like voltages being higher than they should be?
I doubt it, but similar did happen on AM4 so it's worth trying at least

 

[AusWolf]

Yes, that's the question - did something get stuck, like voltages being higher than they should be?
I doubt it, but similar did happen on AM4 so it's worth trying at least

VCore behaves normally by the looks of it (it's way lower than it was on the 7700X), and and VSoC is the same 1.2 V. There's so many small things on a modern CPU, though. I'll have a try.

 

[Mussels]

I posted this in another thread, forgetting where it came up and relevant to a few discussions with multiple people

Turns out i'm not alone, and this bug goes back to the launch of AM4

No idea *what* gets stuck, but it's not just me noticing some boards require the 'load optimised defaults' to behave after a hardware change
They were on gigabyte, while i've mostly seen this on asus

 

[Gmr_Chick]

Back with another question - thoughts on the MSI MEG Coreliquid S280?

Edit: Nevermind. Just read TPU's review of it and noted the "lackluster performance on AMD" bit.

 

[freeagent]

If you have room for a small air cooler, I promise you will love the Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120SE. It is 154mm tall, and will handle your CPU with ease. I promise you will love it. If not, I will pay for it so you are not out of cash because of my recommendation.. and you can turn around and flip it

Phantom Spirit 120 SE – Thermalright

 

[chrcoluk]

Dunno if its bios related, on my new board the fans seem to ramp up for like one second then slow down again, I noticed is a new fan level setting asrock made, increasing its value seems to tone it down somewhat but still slightly annoying (it defaults to level 0 which makes fans super sensitive to temp changes), however in my case I dont hear it through headphones, so not as extreme as your situation, and the fans dont hit full speed either.

 

[freeagent]

If the fans ramp doing simple things, then the cooler is having a hard time.