F1 2020 Gets NVIDIA DLSS Support, 4K-60 Max Details Possible on RTX 2060 SUPER

[phanbuey]

This is clearly an awesome feature as no one would spend this much time hating/defending hairworks.

Seriously though, the image quality is pretty amazing for the performance boost. It gives a better boost than going from high-medium settings and has less impact from what I've seen.

 

[ZoneDymo]

AMD doesn't have to do anything if the FPSis 60 at 4k. No DLSS needed to speed anything up so Native 4k can be left without any reconstructions. Can AMD pull this off? Time will tell with the new graphics release.
We all know what DLSS does but you keep forgetting that this DLSS of NV is not to make the image quality better but gain FPS by sacrificing the image quality in one way or another. The reconstruction when happens is to sacrifice image quality to gain FPS and it doesn't look the same as before the reconstruction happened. That's why the reconstruction takes place, sacrafice to get FPS otherwise what would have been the point of that? What is wrong with you man?

What is wrong with me?
Ermm not much but how about you?
Doesnt have to do anything if the fps is 60 at 4k? ermm ok why? why is this the staple suddenly? dont people want 4k at 120fps or something suddenly?
And if it can do that now in a current game, what about the future? and what about the cost of the card that can do that....

I am not forgetting that DLSS is not to make the image better but gain FPS, the point is to gain FPS with a MINIMUM to NOT EVEN NOTICEBLE drop im image quality.
I keep having to repeat myself for some bewildering reason.
IF NVIDIA CAN DO 4k QUALITY AT A REALLY HIGH FPS, THEN AMD, WHO DOES NOT HAVE AN ANSWER TO DLSS, IS IN TROUBLE.
The reconstruction is not to sacrifice image quality to gain fps.... what the hell, they drop in resolution is to gain fps and the reconstruction is there to make up for that dropped resolution so its barely noticable to the end user which they accomplish by using a 16k reference image.

And they are getting really close to doing that hence I worry for AMD, its going to be hard to be the price/performance king when a midrange Nvidia card can pull of 4k image quality while doing 100fps where that will take on AMD's side the most high end card to actually do 4k because they dont have this sort of image reconstruction.

 

[Dredi]

Its not about 4k vs DLSS, its about 4k vs DLSS on an older game or a newer game, THAT is of no difference, DLSS on an older game looks the same as DLSS on a newer game, its the same technique applied to both.

Lets go back a tad shall we:
M2B said that in the future he expects blind tests to be done and we will see many people who cant see a difference between Native 4k and DLSS

You then responded saying the same can be done for framerate, that the difference between 90 and 120 is hardly noticable for the vast majority, but if you were to therefor claim the cards producing those numbers are of the same value, "all hell would break loose"

implying that you cant just glance over the minor differences because they do matter.

Then I responded its not a fair comparison as that frame-rate difference wont matter indeed for that made up game, like you can buy a for example RX580 to play CSGO or an RTX2080Ti, both will easily run that game at 200 fps so it wont matter which you get, BUT If you were to play something a tad more demanding, suddenly it does matter.
If one only played CSGO nobody would mind someone claiming that the 200fps RX580 or the 300fps RTX2080ti dont matter and that they should just buy the cheaper of the two cards.
But if people do play more, suddenly that difference in performance will matter and then you cant just make the previous claim because you would give bad advice.

However when it comes to the diference between 4k and DLSS visual videlity for CSGO or a "tad more demanding" game, the difference would remain the same, the difference does not scale like fps can and does and so the argument of "all hell breaking lose" falls away.

Either way, getting massively off track here, or are we?

Its not entirely in the realm of subjectivity though is it, if a pixel is black, its black, there is nothing subjective about it.
A 4k image and a 1440 DLSS 2.0 image can be compared pixel for pixel and can be analysed in how "the same" they are and that removes the idea of subjectivity.

How much worse does B look then A? Subjective, but if some program analyses them and says they are 99.9% the same then well, becomes hard to argue subjectivity.

and on the last thing, remember that this is also about looks in motion, not just a fixed image, AND that the DLSS image comes from a 16k reference image, which is quite a bit higher res with more detail then 4k.

Those pictures are definitely not the same. The left one is considerably sharper, meaning that one of them differs a lot from the creators vision.

 

[phanbuey]

Those pictures are definitely not the same. The left one is considerably sharper, meaning that one of them differs a lot from the creators vision.

Really? so increasing the resolution from 1080P to 4K, or using 16x AF must also deviate from the creators vision, since, you know it's sharper.

 

[Dredi]

Really? so increasing the resolution from 1080P to 4K, or using 16x AF must also deviate from the creators vision, since, you know it's sharper.

Yup. It would be helpful to know what resolution was used by the creators of said piece of art. With console games this is a lot easier.

 

[ZoneDymo]

Those pictures are definitely not the same. The left one is considerably sharper, meaning that one of them differs a lot from the creators vision.

Lets be really honest here, you cannot possible/realistically 100% follow the creators vision because there is no creators vision, unless it literally was 1 man project.
In the real world hundreds of different people work on it and much of that work does not even pass under the eyes of the "creator" if there even was such a thing.
All these hundreds of people have different ears and eyes and hardware to work on the project.

So it could only 100% work if you had a 1 man project and you knew exactly what hardware they were using, how it was calibrated/worn and could get your hands on that.
And heck even that would not work because your eyes and ears arnt their eyes and ears so maybe what you preceive as red was originally seen and intended to be red-brownish.

And heck then we are not even talking about the idea of even wanting the "creators vision" to begin with.

all of this is just completely silly and unrealistic.

Who is to say what was the creators vision as well? you run the game at 1080p because you have a 1080p monitor, or at 1440p, or at 4k, or at 5k...or 8k, how do we know how "sharp" it was originally designed to be.... and more importantly, what does it matter at all?

 

[Dredi]

Lets be really honest here, you cannot possible/realistically 100% follow the creators vision because there is no creators vision, unless it literally was 1 man project.
In the real world hundreds of different people work on it and much of that work does not even pass under the eyes of the "creator" if there even was such a thing.
All these hundreds of people have different ears and eyes and hardware to work on the project.

So it could only 100% work if you had a 1 man project and you knew exactly what hardware they were using, how it was calibrated/worn and could get your hands on that.
And heck even that would not work because your eyes and ears arnt their eyes and ears so maybe what you preceive as red was originally seen and intended to be red-brownish.

And heck then we are not even talking about the idea of even wanting the "creators vision" to begin with.

all of this is just completely silly and unrealistic.

There is usually someone with a title of creative director. You seem to not like the idea of appreciating said persons vision, but don’t deem us who do somehow ”silly and unrealistic”.

 

[ZoneDymo]

There is usually someone with a title of creative director. You seem to not like the idea of appreciating said persons vision, but don’t deem us who do somehow ”silly and unrealistic”.

I didnt? Im saying the pursuit of that vision is silly and unrealistic for the myriad of reasons I mentioned.
Do you know a game called Warframe? it has a creative director, Steve Sinclair, a very admirable person, is on all the dev streams and is very hands on.
You think he does everything in the game? orrrr perhaps there is for example a team of artists that make art and there is an artdirector that steers them a bit and then that gets put in the game and Steve goes "ohh thats so cool, yes!'

Never does 1 man make a product, heck often you dont want that anyway, many people are involved and leave their own marks, its undoable otherwise and not really desireable either.

 

[Dredi]

I didnt? Im saying the pursuit of that vision is silly and unrealistic for the myriad of reasons I mentioned.
Do you know a game called Warframe? it has a creative director, Steve Sinclair, a very admirable person, is on all the dev streams and is very hands on.
You think he does everything in the game? orrrr perhaps there is for example a team of artists that make art and there is an artdirector that steers them a bit and then that gets put in the game and Steve goes "ohh thats so cool, yes!'

Never does 1 man make a product, heck often you dont want that anyway, many people are involved and leave their own marks, its undoable otherwise and not really desireable either.

I never said that one person makes everything, yet someone is in charge of how the game looks and feels. Same thing in movies as well.

 

[Vya Domus]

DLSS on an older game looks the same as DLSS on a newer game, its the same technique applied to both.

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Which are the "old" or "new" games ?

Its not about 4k vs DLSS, its about 4k vs DLSS on an older game or a newer game

Bro, do you proof read this stuff ? Is it about 4k vs DLSS or about ... 4k vs DLSS. What the hell.

Its not entirely in the realm of subjectivity though is it, if a pixel is black, its black, there is nothing subjective about it.
A 4k image and a 1440 DLSS 2.0 image can be compared pixel for pixel and can be analysed in how "the same" they are and that removes the idea of subjectivity.


How much worse does B look then A? Subjective, but if some program analyses them and says they are 99.9% the same then well, becomes hard to argue subjectivity.

You asked for it.

This is something I wrote in matlab really quick it just computes the differences between the two images converted to floating point and then mapped to a one dimensional array so I can get a norm out of it :

C = imread('image.png');
A = C(:, 1:end/2, :);
B = C(:, end/2+1:end, :);

X = double(A)-double(B);
X = X(:);
norm(X)

ans =

   1.7758e+04

There, you have your answer, 1.7758e+04 is the number that I get using a program that compares the images. What does that say, is it good is it bad, is it so-so ? I'm all ears, you clearly know a lot more than I do on what is objective or not.

But you know what I do know for sure ? If 4K and 4K DLSS were the same as you said multiple times by now, that number would have been zero, which it isn't. That's definitive.

 

[phanbuey]

There is usually someone with a title of creative director. You seem to not like the idea of appreciating said persons vision, but don’t deem us who do somehow ”silly and unrealistic”.

Then definitely at least one of these doesn't fit into the creative vision, and yet they all had the same director. Also, it's amazing how the creative visions of all of these different visionaries seem to be adding sharpness, resolution, and polygons every year. Everyone must be having more vivid dreams.

 

[Dredi]

View attachment 166636

Then definitely at least one of these doesn't fit into the creative vision, and yet they all had the same director. Also, it's amazing how the creative visions of all of these different visionaries seem to be adding sharpness, resolution, and polygons every year. Everyone must be having more vivid dreams.

View attachment 166637

Nice one! Just uninstall your eyes then if that’s what you like. In this case we’d need to know which one of these presentations was the one preferred by the creative director and which ones were implemented because some money focused people bullied the dev team to make something they didn’t like. What is so difficult for you to comprehend?

edit:
also, it is entirely possible to author more than one version of the ~same piece of art, like what Lucas did with star wars, or really any ’directors cut’ films.

 

[phanbuey]

Nice one! Just uninstall your eyes then if that’s what you like. In this case we’d need to know which one of these presentations was the one preferred by the creative director and which ones were implemented because some money focused people bullied the dev team to make something they didn’t like. What is so difficult for you to comprehend?

edit:
also, it is entirely possible to author more than one version of the ~same piece of art, like what Lucas did with star wars, or really any ’directors cut’ films.

What's difficult for me to comprehend is the seeming lack of your posts' ability to separate the technological limitations of the medium with the vision of the artist, and blatantly assume that the limitations of that medium are part of the artist's vision, to then use that as an argument against a higher-fidelity, better performing rendering technique.

 

[Dredi]

What's difficult for me to comprehend is the seeming lack of your posts' ability to separate the technological limitations of the medium with the vision of the artist, and blatantly assume that the limitations of that medium are part of the artist's vision, to then use that as an argument against a higher-fidelity, better performing rendering technique.

Higher fidelity and DLSS do not belong to the same sentence.

 

[phanbuey]

Higher fidelity and DLSS do not belong to the same sentence.

And yet here we are.... on the 2060S I can now run 4k w/DLSS at comparable playability to 1440p... and one looks better than the other. so... Yeah, they kind of do.

And I can enable more eyecandy... I know that's going against the artistic vision, but, to most humans that's considered 'better'.

 

[Vya Domus]

And I can enable more eyecandy...

How so ?

 

[phanbuey]

How so ?

Let's say I have a 2060S and a 1440p 144hz monitor, and like to run my game around 100 fps since it's a racing game and I like the smoothness.

On my 1440P monitor I wouldn't be able to use Max in game settings and get over 100FPS, and would have to drop to High or Medium settings at 1440P or go down a resolution to 1080P. But with DLSS I can run max in-game settings at 1440p to all the shadows, tiretracks, effects, draw distance, etc.

 

[ODOGG26]

Yup, I can totally see this coming. It’ll be fun to see how many % of people are blind or prefer the oversharpened look. Bunch of people use motion interpolation when watching movies as well, so I would not bet that even the majority are going to choose the images that reflect the creators vision.

Lmao. This is what I be saying. Like how can you alter the creators original vision of how a scene should look overall by brightening and sharpening and whatever else it claims it does to the image and thus changing the whole feel of said scene or whatever and claim it looks better? Like it will never look better because its not native and that's not the way it was meant to look.

If people just kept it real and say this isn't the original image and doesn't look better than the original image ever but it does increase frame rates to help people with weaker GPUs then I would be like cool, that's interesting and helpful. But the fact like some of these sites and tubers and sheepl keep regurgitating this whole it looks better and its the best thing ever is just false and turns me off from the tech. Period.

 

[ZoneDymo]

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Which are the "old" or "new" games ?

Bro, do you proof read this stuff ? Is it about 4k vs DLSS or about ... 4k vs DLSS. What the hell.

You asked for it.

This is something I wrote in matlab really quick it just computes the differences between the two images converted to floating point and then mapped to a one dimensional array so I can get a norm out of it :

C = imread('image.png');
A = C(:, 1:end/2, :);
B = C(:, end/2+1:end, :);

X = double(A)-double(B);
X = X(:);
norm(X)

ans =

   1.7758e+04

There, you have your answer, 1.7758e+04 is the number that I get using a program that compares the images. What does that say, is it good is it bad, is it so-so ? I'm all ears, you clearly know a lot more than I do on what is objective or not.

But you know what I do know for sure ? If 4K and 4K DLSS were the same as you said multiple times by now, that number would have been zero, which it isn't. That's definitive.

You make a comparison to 4k vs DLSS with framerate, and I say that is not a fair comparison.

You take a moment were framerate is irrelevant, aka an older game that can run at 100fps
However with a newer/more demanding game or higher settings, those fps become lower to a point where it IS something you notice.

"Its not about 4k vs DLSS, its about 4k vs DLSS on an older game or a newer game"

Im not going to repeat the entire explination again, but I reposted the sentence to make it a bit more clear hopefully.
The point is that the visual difference between native 4k and DLSS 4k remains the same for an older title and a newer title, but framerate (which you brought up as comparison) changes because newer titles are more demanding

Ermm idk what you want me to say to your little program, it could say 10 cows, idk, I did not make the program, maybe make it so that the outcome can tell us how much percentage photo A resembles foto B? or something like that?

In ever said it was the same, I said it was similair enough that people would not notice, also out ot curiocity, which of the 2 pictures do you think looks better and why? because to me they looks similair enough...I know I know subjective.

 

[Vya Domus]

But with DLSS I can run max in-game settings at 1440p to all the shadows, tiretracks, effects, draw distance, etc.

That's not 1440p, it's 1080p ... that's why it's faster. I know, you are all determined to throw the idea of a native resolution out the window, I can't do that, sorry.

maybe make it so that the outcome can tell us how much percentage photo A resembles foto B? or something like that?

You know what, never mind.

 

[phanbuey]

That's not 1440p, it's 1080p ... that's why it's faster. I know, you are all determined to throw the idea of a native resolution out the window, I can't do that, sorry.



You know what, never mind.

If it looks like 1440P to where I can't tell the difference then... ignorance is bliss. I'll take it.

If their "1080P" looks better than the game 1080P then DLSS = higher fidelity.

 

[Vya Domus]

If it looks like 1440P to where I can't tell the difference then... ignorance is bliss. I'll take it.

I have a 4K TV I run games sub-natively all the time because I too can't tell the difference from 2 meters. But I'm not gonna say that's it's 4K ever, because it just isn't.

 

[phanbuey]

I have a 4K TV I run games sub-natively all the time because I too can't tell the difference from 2 meters. But I'm not gonna say that's it's 4K ever, because it just isn't.

But it's still better than 1080P... So it's still a net positive. Dynamic sub-resolution on stuff you don't focus on + full rez on stuff you do will always look better than just dropping down the rez overall. It looks good, it runs good. I personally can't tell the difference unless i am really looking for it, so to me it's a net IQ win. I can definitely tell the difference between 1440P and 1080 or 1440P and 4K, much more so than DLSS (1.0 was a disaster but I had to use it for RT metro but 2.0 is much better).

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Well hence it says "4k DLSS"
If it said "4k upscaled" would you complain that "its not true 4k!!"....no you would'nt because that is why the "upscaled" part is added.
Read the title of the article carefully as well:
F1 2020 Gets NVIDIA DLSS Support, 4K-60 Max Details Possible on RTX 2060 SUPER
4k detail possible, the detail level of 4k, not running it at 4k.

Next to that people need to give DLSS a lot more credit, if you watch some of Digital Foundry's vids on it you will see there is a lot of value in it and even in areas it surpasses native genuine 4k in visual videlity.


Somewhat unrelated: AMD really needs to start doing something similair because this is one of those things that will leave them in the dust.

Wrong way round, it's running at 4k but has detailidge/ image quality of approximated 4k.

It is running at 4k.

I find it interesting that for years many games built world's in 1080p then subterfuge frame scaling it upto to 4k like GtaV.

So if they do that and dlss they could vastly alter the image quality.

I'd rather have the actual power than have all GPU vendors chase frames at the cost of IQ, it's not just Nvidia.

 

[Cheeseball]

I would rather think of DLSS as "sometimes 4K" as there may be scenes that can be rendered at 4K then most of the time sub-4K. As long as the quality loss isn't really distracting (e.g. during active motion), I'll accept it.

I would love for PUBG and Warzone to have this though since it would make seeing opponents a lot easier.