First Windows 11 Patch Tuesday Makes Ryzen L3 Cache Latency Worse, AMD Puts Out Fix Dates

bug · Oct 15, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Nope. This has nothing to do with Intel. AMD's CCX Complex/Infinity Fabric works in a way that is very different and unrelated to how Intels big/little scheme works. Each have CPU Kernel driver code and they are mutually exclusive.

The Kernel driver code for each CPU does not and can not interfere with the code of another.

I see. I was thinking Microsoft tried to put everything under the same umbrella and somehow messed up AMD support. But if support is still separated, it's really weird they messed it up. I mean, it was already done for Win10. Then again, I'm a software developer, this isn't the weirdest thing I have seen.

phanbuey · Oct 15, 2021

bug said:
I see. I was thinking Microsoft tried to put everything under the same umbrella and somehow messed up AMD support. But if support is still separated, it's really weird they messed it up. I mean, it was already done for Win10. Then again, I'm a software developer, this isn't the weirdest thing I have seen.

I'm sure it's security 'feature' related.

I think most of performance hits from windows these days is coming from new security features (vbs, flow control, memory randomization, blah blah). When you're babysitting how every piece of memory is being accessed/allocated this is bound to happen.

zlobby · Oct 15, 2021

phanbuey said:
I'm sure it's security 'feature' related.

I think most of performance hits from windows these days is coming from new security features (vbs, flow control, memory randomization, blah blah). When you're babysitting how every piece of memory is being accessed/allocated this is bound to happen.

Until hardware is fully capable of running everything virtualized natively, we're bound for such 'hybrid' solutions where parts of the virtualization is done in software, while the rest is done in hardware.

Hopefully the day every program runs completely isolated natively, in hardware will be upon us all soon. It also begs the question what will happen when a sufficiently advanced (self-aware) AI manage to obfuscate its real goals with these neat security features?

bug · Oct 15, 2021

zlobby said:
Until hardware is fully capable of running everything virtualized natively, we're bound for such 'hybrid' solutions where parts of the virtualization is done in software, while the rest is done in hardware.

Hopefully the day every program runs completely isolated natively, in hardware will be upon us all soon. It also begs the question what will happen when a sufficiently advanced (self-aware) AI manage to obfuscate its real goals with these neat security features?

What does that even mean?

phanbuey · Oct 15, 2021

zlobby said:
Until hardware is fully capable of running everything virtualized natively, we're bound for such 'hybrid' solutions where parts of the virtualization is done in software, while the rest is done in hardware.

Hopefully the day every program runs completely isolated natively, in hardware will be upon us all soon. It also begs the question what will happen when a sufficiently advanced (self-aware) AI manage to obfuscate its real goals with these neat security features?

Horizon Zero Dawn.

lexluthermiester · Oct 15, 2021

bug said:
I was thinking Microsoft tried to put everything under the same umbrella and somehow messed up AMD support.

The way I understand it, there's a bit of truth there. The new scheduling schemes are a part of the base changes being made to 11, but those changes apply equally to all CPU models. Where the glitch comes in is where those processes interact with the architecture of each CPU line. Ryzen CPU's are a built in a unique way and as such, the CPU driver code has to be written to accommodate how it works.

What likely happened was microsoft give AMD the specifications of the changes they were going to make and AMD delivered back code for microsoft to integrate, then along the way something was changed and the code AMD created no longer worked properly. However, that's just a guess based on what I've been able to discover thus far.

zlobby · Oct 15, 2021

phanbuey said:
Horizon Zero Dawn.

Deragnement much?

bug said:
What does that even mean?

What indeed?

R-T-B · Oct 15, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Nope. This has nothing to do with Intel. AMD's CCX Complex/Infinity Fabric works in a way that is very different and unrelated to how Intels big/little scheme works. Each have CPU Kernel driver code and they are mutually exclusive.

The Kernel driver code for each CPU does not and can not interfere with the code of another.

But the scheduler can. I have a feeling what happened is there rather than kernel.

phanbuey · Oct 15, 2021

zlobby said:
Deragnement much?

The story of HZD is an ai that wraps itself in encryption that can't be broken/shut down.

Edit: totally missed it the first time

...

zlobby · Oct 15, 2021

phanbuey said:
Spelling much?

The story of HZD is an ai that wraps itself in encryption that can't be broken/shut down.

Ah, I did forget the quotes on 'Derangement'. And I misspelt it, too. You ought to know it's in the game's synopsis, no?

lexluthermiester · Oct 16, 2021

R-T-B said:
But the scheduler can. I have a feeling what happened is there rather than kernel.

You might be right. I'll be honest, this is just a guess based on the info available. That level of programming is way beyond my pay grade.

windwhirl · Oct 16, 2021

Patch is landing in Beta and Release Preview channels. Should probably reach General Availability at some point during next week.

Releasing Windows 11 Build 22000.282 to Beta and Release Preview Channels

Hello Windows Insiders, today we’re releasing Windows 11 Build 22000.282 to Windows Insiders in the Beta and Release Preview Channels. This update includes the following improvements: We fixed an L3 caching issue that might affect perfo

blogs.windows.com

The Windows Insider Program

Be the first to see what's next for Windows in the Windows Insider Program. Join the community, provide feedback to help make Windows even better.

aka.ms

Mussels · Oct 16, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
You also didn't see them announce updated support for each gen of Ryzen nor 8th, 9th, 10th &11th gen Core series CPU's from Intel, but they did. Those updates will come in an update as per usual.

Maybe? Common sense really..

No, really. Alder lake requires windows 11.

It's two different CPU architectures in one, Win 10 would throw crysis on the low performance core and minesweeper on the big ones

The fix is live on the beta channel

lexluthermiester · Oct 16, 2021

Mussels said:
No, really. Alder lake requires windows 11.

Are you sure? Might be mistaken but I don't remember reading Alderlake being exclusive to Win11...

Mussels · Oct 16, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Are you sure? Might be mistaken but I don't remember reading Alderlake being exclusive to Win11...

You might get it to work. It wont work properly.

It's like asking why hyperthreading doesnt work in DOS, because the OS isn't coded for it.

Microsoft and intel decided to make Alder lake only work properly on windows 11.
No one knows if that means a performance hit, missing cores, etc - yet.

This crap is not coming to 10:

lexluthermiester · Oct 16, 2021

Mussels said:
You might get it to work. It wont work properly.

It's like asking why hyperthreading doesnt work in DOS, because the OS isn't coded for it.

Microsoft and intel decided to make Alder lake only work properly on windows 11.
No one knows if that means a performance hit, missing cores, etc - yet.

This crap is not coming to 10:
View attachment 221071

Ok, I see what you're getting at. Intel saying that it is "specifically designed for Windows 11" does not directly state exclusivity for that OS. It might hint at it, but until they actually make that direct statement, it's not set in stone..

Mussels · Oct 16, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Ok, I see what you're getting at. Intel saying that it is "specifically designed for Windows 11" does not directly state exclusivity for that OS. It might hint at it, but until they actually make that direct statement, it's not set in stone..

They repeatedly say it'll perform crap in any OS that is not specifically patched for the new big.little design
As far as any reviewer or consumer is concerned, thats an exclusive, since 11 is the only OS they (intel) have worked with.

It's like saying a 5950x is supported in DOS... sure, but it's sure as fuck not at full performance.

Selaya · Oct 16, 2021

just disable the little cores then, nothing of value was lost anyways so

lexluthermiester · Oct 16, 2021

Mussels said:
They repeatedly say it'll perform crap in any OS that is not specifically patched for the new big.little design
As far as any reviewer or consumer is concerned, thats an exclusive, since 11 is the only OS they've worked with.

It's like saying a 5950x is supported in DOS... sure, but it's sure as fuck not at full performance.

Not trying to ruffle your feathers. It seems like they just don't have things ironed out yet. This might be because of market adoption for Windows 11, which hasn't taken off like a shot or a number of other factors.

zlobby · Oct 16, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Not trying to ruffle your feathers.

But his jimmies were rustlesd.

windwhirl · Oct 16, 2021

Selaya said:
just disable the little cores then, nothing of value was lost anyways so

If I buy big and small cores, I'm gonna use all of them.

lexluthermiester · Oct 16, 2021

windwhirl said:
If I buy big and small cores, I'm gonna use all of them.

That's a reasonable expectation.

ThrashZone · Oct 16, 2021

windwhirl said:
If I buy big and small cores, I'm gonna use all of them.

Hi,
Little cores likely will be hot potato's lol

maxfly · Oct 16, 2021

Dont know if this has been linked yet but its good news!

Windows 11 Insider patch fixes major AMD Ryzen bug

This fix takes care of the L3 caching issue affecting some AMD Ryzen CPUs.

www.pcgamer.com

Selaya · Oct 16, 2021

windwhirl said:
If I buy big and small cores, I'm gonna use all of them.

thats on you then
i would only ever buy big cores but idt there's an 8/0 SKU?
so i get unwanted useless little cores shoved down my throat, that don't even want to play nice w/ all OSes so yeah, -> disable

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First Windows 11 Patch Tuesday Makes Ryzen L3 Cache Latency Worse, AMD Puts Out Fix Dates

bug

phanbuey

zlobby

bug

phanbuey

lexluthermiester

zlobby

R-T-B

phanbuey

zlobby

lexluthermiester

windwhirl

Releasing Windows 11 Build 22000.282 to Beta and Release Preview Channels

The Windows Insider Program

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

lexluthermiester

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

lexluthermiester

Mussels

Freshwater Moderator

Selaya

lexluthermiester

zlobby

windwhirl

lexluthermiester

ThrashZone

maxfly

Windows 11 Insider patch fixes major AMD Ryzen bug

Selaya

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