How to quickly & easily fix coil-whine(coil choke noise)

[lexluthermiester]

HOWEVER, if the noise is coming from the power supply, it could be loose transformer plates buzzing.

True! Doesn't happen very often, but it is possible. Believe it or not, super-glue can solve that problem as well and for the exact same reason. Transformer windings can vibrate in the same way and for very similar reasons to choke coils.

Or perhaps capacitors singing.

That one is new to me. I'll have to read up on it. Maybe this is why some caps get glued down with silicone? I've always wondered about that.

Could the Arctic Freezer III, that, compared to II i'd call verry noisy, have coil whine ?.. or is it by design ?

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Not the same thing, even if it might have a similar sound. What you're hearing is the motor actuation, or motor spin if you wish. Different kind of vibration resonance.

 

[Bill_Bright]

That one is new to me. I'll have to read up on it. Maybe this is why some caps get glued down with silicone? I've always wondered about that.

That is exactly why! Unlike coils and transformers, there are no wire windings or metal plates that vibrate and rattle in capacitors. The whole capacitor vibrates and rattles against the PCB. So as you noted, they are often glued down with silicone or at least soldered closely to the PCB so there is absolutely no "wiggle" room should they start to vibrate.

 

[taka]

Been messing arround with electronics since 1986, never heard a capacitor "singing" before. Only piezoelectric ones.




Electrolytic caps They can bulge

Leak

Smoke

Or explode

 

[Bill_Bright]

Been messing arround with electronics since 1986,

Then I won't hold your obvious youth and lack of experience against you!

I first learned about capacitor singing in electronics tech school way back in 1971.

Only piezoelectric ones.

Umm, did you read the article I posted?

 

[taka]

Umm, did you read the article I posted?

obviously not the first time, now that you mentioned it yes

Then I won't hold your obvious youth and lack of experience against you!

I first learned about capacitor singing in electronics tech school way back in 1971.

Lol ok you got me there, born in 1976 here. Heard about them later in the 80' with the Casio melody alarm watches.

Ceramic caps tend to vibrate more at mid-high freqvency 500hz-40khz, since they are used in tweeters and ultrasonic tranducers . Inductors can go as low as 10-20 hz but can reach ~20khz also. See the coils in dynamic speakers. But the signal that make them vibrate it's from MOSFET switching.

I remember building a MOSFET amp and didn't have any speakers arround and had to put some load on exit using a resistor. The aluminium radiator used for cooling the MOSFET's was vibrating to the signal applied to the input.

 

[Shrek]

The aluminium radiator used for cooling the MOSFET's was vibrating to the signal applied to the input.

So, it isn't always the coils?

 

[taka]

So, it isn't always the coils?

They came in so many case shape and sizes

The SMD ones id GPU's are the smallest. I was using the to-3 package in that project.

real size example

Mosfet case vibrate also, but the coil act as a speaker (more loud) and you cant hear the MOSFET.

 

[ad1]

He never said that. Again, correct terminology prevents misunderstandings. There is a HUGE difference between "flex" and "vibrate". "Flex" suggest something is bending or twisting. "Torque" forces are involved introducing a entire new set of parameters - none of which are good. No PCB, including graphics cards or motherboards should be subjected to any sort of flexing forces.

Flexing should be avoided at all costs. This is exactly why it is critical standoffsbe the same height. It is why graphics cards mounting screws need to be secure to avoid sagging graphics cards. It is why computer cases need to be "true" (90° bends be exactly 90°) to avoid wobbles and unwanted twisting torque forces on motherboard mounting points.

Again, this is a technical forum. Terminology should be technically correct.

Maybe I used the wrong word. What I meant was if a board has fixed rigid points at the standoffs around the edges and it's vibrating in the middle where it's missing standoffs, then there would be some microscopic "flex" or wobble. I can't imagine how a board can remain perfectly flat while vibrating in one area and not in others. Maybe there are better, more technical terms for this.

 

[Bill_Bright]

then there would be some microscopic "flex" or wobble.

Ummm, no.

No flex. No wobble.

The typical PCB in today's sophisticated electronics are made up of "layers" of glass fibers, resins (such as epoxy resins), and copper. In the most sophisticated systems, the multiple layers even carry different circuits. But in typical computers today, they carry two - one set of circuits on top of the board, another on the bottom, with may interconnecting points throughout.

Because we mere humans are incapable of making perfection 100% of the time, the raw materials to make up those boards typically are not 100% pure. They have flaws, often microscopic, such as contaminates or perhaps a tiny air bubble that is not supposed to be there. Or perhaps some slight manufacturing defect is introduced during production that prevents the resins, and thus layers from properly and completely bonding together.

It is at that defect point where vibrations (often from distance sources) cause those layers to "bang" into each other (microscopically speaking) and make a rattling sound - much like that car muffler in the back of the car hitting the undercarriage due to the natural vibration of the engine way up front of the car. When the frequency of that rattling is between 50 & 60 Hz, it can sound like a hum. Higher may sound like a buzz. When really high it sounds like a very high pitch "singing" sound that can drive people with sensitive ears, and dogs crazy.

 

[ad1]

Ummm, no.

No flex. No wobble.

The typical PCB in today's sophisticated electronics are made up of "layers" of glass fibers, resins (such as epoxy resins), and copper. In the most sophisticated systems, the multiple layers even carry different circuits. But in typical computers today, they carry two - one set of circuits on top of the board, another on the bottom, with may interconnecting points throughout.

Because we mere humans are incapable of making perfection 100% of the time, the raw materials to make up those boards typically are not 100% pure. They have flaws, often microscopic, such as contaminates or perhaps a tiny air bubble that is not supposed to be there. Or perhaps some slight manufacturing defect is introduced during production that prevents the resins, and thus layers from properly and completely bonding together.

It is at that defect point where vibrations (often from distance sources) cause those layers to "bang" into each other (microscopically speaking) and make a rattling sound - much like that car muffler in the back of the car hitting the undercarriage due to the natural vibration of the engine way up front of the car. When the frequency of that rattling is between 50 & 60 Hz, it can sound like a hum. Higher may sound like a buzz. When really high it sounds like a very high pitch "singing" sound that can drive people with sensitive ears, and dogs crazy.

On second thought, I didn't use the wrong word. With all due respect, I'll take the Nvidia engineer's word for it. At minute 4:32, he says "because the whole PCB is kinda flexing". Thanks for the interesting ideas about layers vibrating against each other, I'm sure that also has its role in the whole thing.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You can believe what you want. No card should be flexing - or "kinda flexing", whatever that is supposed to mean. It certainly is not a technical term I would expect from an engineer during a technical discussion.

He may be trying to explain to the layperson, and that's fine. But engineers deal with "theory". Any professional technician who has worked out in "the field" for any length of time knows that real world and theory often, in fact, frequently don't jibe.

But as you can see by following the link in my sig, I've only been in this business for 50+ years, so clearly I'm ignorant on the whole thing.

 

[ad1]

You can believe what you want. No card should be flexing - or "kinda flexing", whatever that is supposed to mean. It certainly is not a technical term I would expect from an engineer during a technical discussion.

He may be trying to explain to the layperson, and that's fine. But engineers deal with "theory". Any professional technician who has worked out in "the field" for any length of time knows that real world and theory often, in fact, frequently don't jibe.

But as you can see by following the link in my sig, I've only been in this business for 50+ years, so clearly I'm ignorant on the whole thing.

Here's a question. If the laser is measuring different amount of deflection at different spots on the board, assuming no flex is happening, what kind of movement does the board make in order to result in these kinds of readings?

Regarding the theory statement, I believe the laser rig is used by the engineers at nvidia to validate theories. Claiming that a PCB cannot flex because of component vibrations would also be a theory.

You're right in saying that a PCB should not flex, but I don't find it hard to believe that a board can flex, especially if it's missing 4 standoff screws as the previous poster had on theirs.

Imagine if the board was really big, thin, had very few mounting points and there was a strong vibrating motor on it. Would flexing/wobble/oscilation be expected in that case? What happens as you move the motor around? What happens if you add another motor? What happens if you change the frequency and amplitude of the vibrations? What happens if the vibrations are in sync vs out of sync? What happens if you move the board's mounting points closer to the center, closer to the edges? What happens if you add additional mounting points? What happens if you make the board thicker or more rigid? All of these things will affect how the board is going to behave. I'm going to guess that as the board becomes stiffer, smaller, has additional mounting points, and source of vibrations is reduced, these "wobbles" will approach 0, but I'm really not surprised that there exist setups where areas of a GPU board vibrate at an audible frequency. I'm also not surprised that nvidia would invest so much time into this when creating their reference board designs, but to me it's clear that it's a very complex problem without a perfect solution, especially given the variance in components used and GPU workload.

 

[lexluthermiester]

On second thought, I didn't use the wrong word. With all due respect, I'll take the Nvidia engineer's word for it.

That's nice. I'll take my own degree and 30+ years of hands-on experience with this exact subject over some NVidia engineer all day, every day, thank you very much.

Here's a question. If the laser is measuring different amount of deflection at different spots on the board, assuming no flex is happening, what kind of movement does the board make in order to result in these kinds of readings?

You're failing to understand proper context. If you dampen or remove the source of the vibrations, the resonance of the PCB becomes irrelevant. Full stop, end of discussion. This thread is about fixing the coil noise problem with a practical solution and discussing various methods of same, not debating endlessly and in circles about trivial aspects of it's effects. We don't care about it's effects, we care about solving the problem and quieting/removing the noise.

 

[Frazzy974]

Good morning,

Thank you for this solution. I would love to do it, but I don’t know where to put the super glue ?

I have a RTX 3070 GAMING X TRIO

 

[ad1]

You're failing to understand proper context. If you dampen or remove the source of the vibrations, the resonance of the PCB becomes irrelevant. Full stop, end of discussion. This thread is about fixing the coil noise problem with a practical solution and discussing various methods of same, not debating endlessly and in circles about trivial aspects of it's effects. We don't care about it's effects, we care about solving the problem and quieting/removing the noise.

I'm aware of that, and I do understand the context, hence my previous apology for derailing the thread.

 

[Yougotonejob]

LOL

No, I am not claiming that. What I am saying is that is not the point.

It seems there is a misunderstanding between the difference in the meanings of "vibration" and "noise".

If a dog sneaks up and scares the cat which then screams, do you call it dog noise?

If the muffler on your car is not securely mounted, and the vibrating engine causes the muffler to rattle, do you call that engine noise?

I watched the couple minutes you pointed out and all he is saying is vibrations may not cause "noise" that originates from the source of the vibration (watch around 4:45 for about 15 seconds)

Coils vibrate. That is a given and not in dispute. But a vibrating coil does NOT automatically suggest the coil is generating the noise or whine. A vibrating coil that is causing something else to rattle and make noise (like the PCB 3 inches away) is NOT "coil whine". That is a PCB rattling and making noise.

Coil whine is a noise that comes directly from the coil. If the vibrating coil is causing the loose layers of the PCB to rattle, that is PCB noise, not coil whine. That's all I'm saying.

vibration is noise, source of vibration come from coil.
BTW, also make your ear drum vibrate too, you call that ear whine.
Im done here Mr coil whine police.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Here's a question. If the laser is measuring different amount of deflection at different spots on the board, assuming no flex is happening, what kind of movement does the board make in order to result in these kinds of readings?

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. The definition of "flex" is, or I would think should be pretty easy to understand. It means to bend or twist an object. A properly mounted circuit card is not bending or twisting. That does not mean vibrations cannot travel through the board.

If you plant your ear to a railroad track, you can "hear" a train coming from miles away (assuming no gaps in the rail). Is sound being produced along that rail throughout those miles? No. Are the rails where you are bending or twisting? No. But vibration is being carried to you, then transferred to your ears where your brain translates those vibrations into a sound you recognize.

vibration is noise

Vibration is NOT noise!

Noise is sound, typically unpleasant or unwanted sound. Sound is caused by vibrations, but that does NOT imply that vibration is sound. Lots of things vibrate without making any sound.

source of vibration come from coil

Yes, the source of the vibration was the coil, but the source of the sound came from something else. I had hoped my analogy of the noisy, rattling muffler caused by the vibrating car engine (which you even quoted) would illustrate that. Sorry it apparently went right over your head.

Im done here Mr coil whine police.

Good, because it is clear you don't know what you are talking about.

Time to move on.

 

[ad1]

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. The definition of "flex" is, or I would think should be pretty easy to understand. It means to bend or twist an object. A properly mounted circuit card is not bending or twisting. That does not mean vibrations cannot travel through the board.

It would be nice if you would have addressed the rest of my post, but no worries.

Look what I found...

So you don't waste 1 minute of your life, the visualization of what vibration on a PCB looks like is at 0:40 in the video. I don't care if you don't call this "flex", I also don't know what the correct term is, but it sure doesn't remain flat while it vibrates. I even asked you what you would call this motion, but you prefer to make muffler and train track analogies instead.

 

[Athlonite]

Vibration is NOT noise!

Noise is sound, typically unpleasant or unwanted sound. Sound is caused by vibrations, but that does NOT imply that vibration is sound. Lots of things vibrate without making any sound.

In order to hear sound something must first vibrate and move air which in turn vibrates our eardrums then the brain goes Oh Hey look it's some noise
and nothing vibrates without making any sound ( unless it's in a vacuum ) its just that it may be at a frequency that we can not hear but that doesn't mean it goes unheard lots of animals and insects can hear high frequency sound

 

[Bill_Bright]

and nothing vibrates without making any sound

Not true. As you noted, in a vacuum, no sound. That's a HUGE exception that cannot be ignored. But not the only exception. It is true that most vibrations create sound that may or may not be within hearing range.

lots of animals and insects can hear high frequency sound

Who said all vibrations must be high frequency? Not me. Something could easily vibrate at 100Hz, 10 Hz or even less than 1Hz.

As a side note, I went to see and audiologist once for my tinnitus. I assumed it was caused by my age and from being around loud rock, many high-speed and loud equipment cooling fans and military flight lines for much of my life. But they had to rule out brain tumors and other things. He told me that sometimes, they can actually hear the ringing in another person's head! I was shocked and told him that could only happen if something was vibrating in my ear. Then he was shocked I knew that - until I explained my background (see link in my sig).

Anyway, he said sometimes, the little hairs in our ears will vibrate due to a nerve ending going spastic. However, my tinnitus rings between 11K and 12K. Hairs rattled by nerves tend to vibrate considerably less than that, around 1KHz for most users.

BTW, if anyone has tinnitus and wants to learn at what frequency you head rings, simply move the slider until it matches the ringing in your head.

Regardless, we seem to be getting way WAY off topic.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Good morning,

Thank you for this solution. I would love to do it, but I don’t know where to put the super glue ?

I have a RTX 3070 GAMING X TRIO

See modified photo.

Apply at the based of each of these chokes following the guide in the first post of this thread. You should be good after that. Let us know how it goes.

Im done here

Good, thank you!

 

[CookieOdd2655]

Hello! I came across this thread hoping to find a solution to the dreaded coil whine my 4080 TUF (non-oc) is displaying. Mainly occurs on anything that is 100 fps or greater and varies in tone depending on the game. Had debated trying another PSU since I have heard that may work but to me it sounds too good to be true (my current one is a Montech 1000w gold PSU).

If a PSU change doesnt work, which area would I apply the glue and once completed would it be recommended to replace any thermal pads/GPU paste and if so any recommendations?

Thank you!

 

[KLiKzg]

@lexluthermiester , are you sure that you want to put cyanoacrylate on PCBs?

The suggestion is great, but I remember when I used to work in EV automotive company, that we used silicon based special glues for same filling.

 

[GIBbeer]

Hello,
my report with ROG-STRIX-RTX3070-O8G-GAMING - it was clicking like

Now it's completely silent!

 

[lexluthermiester]

@lexluthermiester , are you sure that you want to put cyanoacrylate on PCBs?

Seriously?

The suggestion is great, but I remember when I used to work in EV automotive company, that we used silicon based special glues for same filling.

Have fun with that.

Hello,
my report with ROG-STRIX-RTX3070-O8G-GAMING - it was clicking like

Now it's completely silent!

Nice!