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Intel Core i9-14900KS

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AMD's the company offering consumer-grade CPUs at $1500-$5000 range, after all. If we're talking about a fleece, look no further.
Well the 14900KS is $1000 where I live so what are you saying?
 
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AMD's the company offering consumer-grade CPUs at $1500-$5000 range, after all. If we're talking about a fleece, look no further.
Are you referring to threadripper?
 
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The 14900KS's MSRP is $690, not $1000.
Yep. Don't forget to add 12% sales tax.

 
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Are you referring to threadripper?

Very specifically non-Pro, HEDT Threadrippers to which Intel no longer offers a "Core X-series" alternative to. They're not workstation processors and fill the same "prosumer" niche as the former X-series chips. We know, they're basically EPYC/Xeons, but nowadays they come without the nicer price tag and wide range of cool gaming motherboards. Why bother anyway, there's market demand and might as well make all that cash money for the shareholders instead.

Yep. Don't forget to add 12% sales tax.


Canuck bucks and taxes. The Threadripper 7980X is just $8000 CAD but since AMD who was once your buddy and is now your guy is very nice, you can get it for just $7000 CAD. And with that, the company that was once your buddy and then your guy, is now your friend.

I obviously meant USD MSRP, as it's the currency that MSRP's are usually set at (and referred to in the review).
 

reggie_fils_aime

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1. No, just market themselves honestly. It was way worse when their marketing guy was Robert Hallock, though, and funnily enough he's working at Intel now. But instead we got a series of nonsense such as that supposed "BIOS ROM size limitation" on AM4 in an attempt to upsell hardware, I had to replace my perfectly working Crosshair VI motherboard because they intentionally withheld X370 support for almost a year, or TRX40 being aborted mid-way and never seeing Zen 3 to begin with... I know people who purchased TRX40 systems and got hosed big time.


5. What's despicable about not liking his PC build? I certainly would have spent my money differently: even if were I building using only AMD parts, it'd be 7800X3D+7900XTX instead of 7900X3D+7900XT (it would be cheaper and perform better at games), but again, like I said, it's the beauty of it: PC builds are what their owners make of them. I chose to buy Intel and NVIDIA this time. I felt that Raptor Lake was a better processor than Zen 4, and having hands-on experience with Zen 2 and Zen 3 as well as AMD's behavior handling their previous generation platform, I also clearly had other reasons. They offered me a better product and got my patronage. That's about it.

I registered just to respond to this, and a few other assertions made by Dr. Dro; I found a lot of what you said to be somewhere between ahistorical and histrionic. People would probably respond to you more kindly if you didn't take the tone of a rabid intel fan. Similarly, insulting people's PC builds because they're not good enough doesn't do much to endear oneself to the public.

Anyways, point 1 is sort of a big nothingburger, primarily because AMD changed their position and followed through on it. You "had" to replace your motherboard because you wanted a new toy and couldn't wait? And if you had waited, they would've fixed your problem? And this is their fault, somehow? This is the textbook definition of petulance. Meanwhile, intel would have had you trash your motherboard already if they had their druthers... The only thing stopping them is the incompetence the rest of us readily acknowledge.

As for TR-5000, that is very much a shame, but makes more sense in the context of wanting to withhold the right silicon for actual server-grade applications. The 10,000 people who buy TR systems every year simply had to make do, this hardly takes away from the SEVEN YEARS of mainstream support that regular consumers were afforded on AM4... A behavior that stretches back to the days of AM2 supporting AM3 add-in cards.

People tend to give AMD credit because they are, and absolutely have always been, way less awful (perhaps even better) than nearly any other tech company on earth when it comes to dealing with the little people.

No, there's no sarcasm, just a grudge and a whole lot of resentment, actually. As if AMD marketing was comprised of saints and that company not once lied to customers for its advantage, or made fun of their competition - ever.

This is where I really take umbrage with your take on AMD in the context of technology, marketing, and corporate malfeasance. Are you even old enough to remember when Intel actively destroyed every single other x86 competitor? Much in the same way that Nvidia destroyed every other GPU competitor? Intel was, up until their great 14nm stagnation, an entirely monopolistic force. If intel felt like they were anything besides a dead fish, they'd still be doing it - much like Nvidia was recently caught doing with AI card shipments.

My point is this; so what? Who cares if they "made fun", boo-freaking-hoo. Intel has tried to ruin AMD several times over, has failed, and people who've been around longer than the lifespan of a hamster recognize this.
 
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I registered just to respond to this, and a few other assertions made by Dr. Dro; I found a lot of what you said to be somewhere between ahistorical and histrionic. People would probably respond to you more kindly if you didn't take the tone of a rabid intel fan. Similarly, insulting people's PC builds because they're not good enough doesn't do much to endear oneself to the public.

Anyways, point 1 is sort of a big nothingburger, primarily because AMD changed their position and followed through on it. You "had" to replace your motherboard because you wanted a new toy and couldn't wait? And if you had waited, they would've fixed your problem? And this is their fault, somehow? This is the textbook definition of petulance. Meanwhile, intel would have had you trash your motherboard already if they had their druthers... The only thing stopping them is the incompetence the rest of us readily acknowledge.

As for TR-5000, that is very much a shame, but makes more sense in the context of wanting to withhold the right silicon for actual server-grade applications. The 10,000 people who buy TR systems every year simply had to make do, this hardly takes away from the SEVEN YEARS of mainstream support that regular consumers were afforded on AM4... A behavior that stretches back to the days of AM2 supporting AM3 add-in cards.

People tend to give AMD credit because they are, and absolutely have always been, way less awful (perhaps even better) than nearly any other tech company on earth when it comes to dealing with the little people.



This is where I really take umbrage with your take on AMD in the context of technology, marketing, and corporate malfeasance. Are you even old enough to remember when Intel actively destroyed every single other x86 competitor? Much in the same way that Nvidia destroyed every other GPU competitor? Intel was, up until their great 14nm stagnation, an entirely monopolistic force. If intel felt like they were anything besides a dead fish, they'd still be doing it - much like Nvidia was recently caught doing with AI card shipments.

My point is this; so what? Who cares if they "made fun", boo-freaking-hoo. Intel has tried to ruin AMD several times over, has failed, and people who've been around longer than the lifespan of a hamster recognize this.

Well, first things first, welcome to the forums and I hope your body is ready for a back and forth mate

1. Let's agree to disagree on the petulance statement: they actually widely publicized that the BIOS ROM size was too small and X370 boards couldn't run Zen 3. This, of course, turned out to be a lie - as all it took was affordable Alder Lake i5's for all Ryzen 5000 series CPUs to get on 300 series boards sharpish, even the cheapest A320's turned out to be fully compatible. Nowadays you can get a 5800X3D and install on it, but for the longest time, you couldn't. Sure, I'm with you that it's not a problem anymore. But it was back then! The 7 years people got out of AM4 were not exactly free of trouble, so while commendable, let's not pretend it's all roses and rainbows, especially if you had interest in upgrading your "long-term platform" like I did. It turns out that giving enthusiasts who buy your high-margin products the middle finger isn't exactly the smartest sales pitch.

2. The Threadripper situation is not justifiable to consumers, only to shareholders - it's obvious they skipped it due to wafer allocation to high-margin segments that experienced unprecedented demand during the pandemic. Why sell even an $4000 chip if you can use the exact same resource for one selling for 8-10k that was obviously backordered as far as the eye could see. They could very much release a TR-5K processor on TRX40 at a budget now that the N7 node isn't in extreme demand anymore, but they likely won't bother. It's a fact that people who adopted the TRX40 platform got hosed. There's no defense of AMD here.

3. Yes, I was. The notion that AMD is a consumer-friendly company is ridiculous, this is the mentality of people who hang out on AMD subreddits. They were losing, which is why they took the necessary steps to play the part. The second that AMD had any significant advantage, suddenly issues such as the one debated in points one and two became routine.

4. Do you remember, perhaps, around 2009, when ATI first introduced Evergreen and had a 6-month head start on NVIDIA for DirectX 11 and Windows 7 compatibility? You could buy a flagship, full die GT200B card with a 512-bit memory bus for around $300. Remember when their dual-core HD5970 card had about the same thermals and power requirements of NVIDIA's single GTX 480? Because I do. That's a graphics division that's no longer coming back. It died around the time Hawaii/Grenada GPUs were retired from the market. It wasn't NVIDIA who "cheated", it was AMD itself who didn't invest the necessary resources on Radeon. The result is what you see today.

and there is no one else to blame but themselves.
 
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Well, first things first, welcome to the forums and I hope your body is ready for a back and forth mate

1. Let's agree to disagree on the petulance statement: they actually widely publicized that the BIOS ROM size was too small and X370 boards couldn't run Zen 3. This, of course, turned out to be a lie - as all it took was affordable Alder Lake i5's for all Ryzen 5000 series CPUs to get on 300 series boards sharpish, even the cheapest A320's turned out to be fully compatible. Nowadays you can get a 5800X3D and install on it, but for the longest time, you couldn't. Sure, I'm with you that it's not a problem anymore. But it was back then! The 7 years people got out of AM4 were not exactly free of trouble, so while commendable, let's not pretend it's all roses and rainbows, especially if you had interest in upgrading your "long-term platform" like I did. It turns out that giving enthusiasts who buy your high-margin products the middle finger isn't exactly the smartest sales pitch.

2. The Threadripper situation is not justifiable to consumers, only to shareholders - it's obvious they skipped it due to wafer allocation to high-margin segments that experienced unprecedented demand during the pandemic. Why sell even an $4000 chip if you can use the exact same resource for one selling for 8-10k that was obviously backordered as far as the eye could see. They could very much release a TR-5K processor on TRX40 at a budget now that the N7 node isn't in extreme demand anymore, but they likely won't bother. It's a fact that people who adopted the TRX40 platform got hosed. There's no defense of AMD here.

3. Yes, I was. The notion that AMD is a consumer-friendly company is ridiculous, this is the mentality of people who hang out on AMD subreddits. They were losing, which is why they took the necessary steps to play the part. The second that AMD had any significant advantage, suddenly issues such as the one debated in points one and two became routine.

4. Do you remember, perhaps, around 2009, when ATI first introduced Evergreen and had a 6-month head start on NVIDIA for DirectX 11 and Windows 7 compatibility? You could buy a flagship, full die GT200B card with a 512-bit memory bus for around $300. Remember when their dual-core HD5970 card had about the same thermals and power requirements of NVIDIA's single GTX 480? Because I do. That's a graphics division that's no longer coming back. It died around the time Hawaii/Grenada GPUs were retired from the market. It wasn't NVIDIA who "cheated", it was AMD itself who didn't invest the necessary resources on Radeon. The result is what you see today.

and there is no one else to blame but themselves.
1. Lets see the X370 was released in 2017 and the X570S was released in 2021. You are blaming AMD for an advisory that they gave. The flame from the response was why AMD said OK let's do it. The problem was not all X370 boards but some could fully support it 5 years later. Show me an Intel socket that has lasted that long with new CPU support.


2. Threadripper was for the I/O. As I have said before TR was a consumer platform until there was a real world use for it (See Disney+, Amazon Prime). If the 5900X was slower than the 2920X your sentiment would have some merit. Fortunately for consumers AM4 became flexible enough for me to have enough storage to satisfy my needs, coming from TR to AM4. Unless you are crypto mining you don't need all of that I/O anyway.

3. If AMD was not consumer friendly, why are things like Freesync and FSR 3.0 something that Nvidia users can enjoy?

4. Yep I remember those ATI cards. They were so good that AMD sat on them for 3 generations. You are making it seem like those of us with 7900XTs and up have made a bad decision. Well I will tell you what I have noticed. Since the launch of the Xbox1 and PS5 there are always complaints about performance on social media. Too bad I have those Games and my 4K native is plenty fine. I don't need the illusion of DLSS to make my card seem fast. I would also say that if you are buying a $1000 GPU to upscale 1440P to 4K you should have spent $400 and got a 6700XT and enjoy native 1440P. I even asked that question on a PC world live stream and Gordon said well if you have the hardware you can brute force it. There are also Posts about how a 13900K and 4090 combo can cause problems. What was glaring was the fact that the 7800X3D would be just as fast in Games as a high end Intel chip at 1/4 the power draw. I know people like to hate on SLI but I promise you Crossfire on Polaris was awesome.

As an addendum I will add AMD software. Something so good for QOL that after 20 years Nvidia had to update their GUI. So go on thinking what you want but when I am getting 100+ FPS in Dragon's Dogma 2 at 4K your arguments make no sense to me.

Only in your mind are AMD suffering. Have you even read or watched any of the MSI Claw review? Do you know what that means for AMD. If they can do in the APU space what they did on AM4 the handheld market will go gangbusters.
 
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1. Lets see the X370 was released in 2017 and the X570S was released in 2021. You are blaming AMD for an advisory that they gave. The flame from the response was why AMD said OK let's do it. The problem was not all X370 boards but some could fully support it 5 years later. Show me an Intel socket that has lasted that long with new CPU support.


2. Threadripper was for the I/O. As I have said before TR was a consumer platform until there was a real world use for it (See Disney+, Amazon Prime). If the 5900X was slower than the 2920X your sentiment would have some merit. Fortunately for consumers AM4 became flexible enough for me to have enough storage to satisfy my needs, coming from TR to AM4. Unless you are crypto mining you don't need all of that I/O anyway.

3. If AMD was not consumer friendly, why are things like Freesync and FSR 3.0 something that Nvidia users can enjoy?

4. Yep I remember those ATI cards. They were so good that AMD sat on them for 3 generations. You are making it seem like those of us with 7900XTs and up have made a bad decision. Well I will tell you what I have noticed. Since the launch of the Xbox1 and PS5 there are always complaints about performance on social media. Too bad I have those Games and my 4K native is plenty fine. I don't need the illusion of DLSS to make my card seem fast. I would also say that if you are buying a $1000 GPU to upscale 1440P to 4K you should have spent $400 and got a 6700XT and enjoy native 1440P. I even asked that question on a PC world live stream and Gordon said well if you have the hardware you can brute force it. There are also Posts about how a 13900K and 4090 combo can cause problems. What was glaring was the fact that the 7800X3D would be just as fast in Games as a high end Intel chip at 1/4 the power draw. I know people like to hate on SLI but I promise you Crossfire on Polaris was awesome.

As an addendum I will add AMD software. Something so good for QOL that after 20 years Nvidia had to update their GUI. So go on thinking what you want but when I am getting 100+ FPS in Dragon's Dogma 2 at 4K your arguments make no sense to me.

Only in your mind are AMD suffering. Have you even read or watched any of the MSI Claw review? Do you know what that means for AMD. If they can do in the APU space what they did on AM4 the handheld market will go gangbusters.

1. Doesn't matter, especially when 370 and 470 are 1:1 identical. Don't plan on honoring your long-term commitments? Don't make them. Socket 775
2. The 2920X is Zen+ and the 5900X is Zen 3. There's years and a massive IPC and architecture gulf between them. Apples to oranges comparison, and doesn't justify TRX40's abortion. People bought this and got hosed. There's just no defense of this situation
3. It is a business interest of the party that has the smallest (and decreasing) market share to look like they're great supporters of open standards. It's cheaper, especially since you get a lot of volunteer work done.
4. I'm not even referring to a battle of consumer cards. Just NVIDIA's market valuation which eclipses AMD's several times over. AKA they did something right.
 
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1. Doesn't matter, especially when 370 and 470 are 1:1 identical. Don't plan on honoring your long-term commitments? Don't make them. Socket 775
2. The 2920X is Zen+ and the 5900X is Zen 3. There's years and a massive IPC and architecture gulf between them. Apples to oranges comparison, and doesn't justify TRX40's abortion. People bought this and got hosed. There's just no defense of this situation
3. It is a business interest of the party that has the smallest (and decreasing) market share to look like they're great supporters of open standards. It's cheaper, especially since you get a lot of volunteer work done.
4. I'm not even referring to a battle of consumer cards. Just NVIDIA's market valuation which eclipses AMD's several times over. AKA they did something right.
1. Yep going from PCie 3.0 to 4.0 was foolish. Give me a break. Most X470 boards came with x8x8 support for the top 2 PCIe lanes. They also came with updated VRMs and better RAM support so try again. Of course you were not obliged to buy a X470 anyway.

2. If you were the fool that paid $2000+ for a CPU after seeing that AMD delivered improved IPC with every generation that is your own fault. Especially if you are getting it just for regular Computing tasks. X399 still has more I/O than AM5 but you were arguing like TRX40 chips were so much faster the lowest improvement in IPC was going from 3000 to 5000 on AM4 so your argument is actually moot.

3. Yep a business interest. Do you even know the history of Open source.

4. The best thing Nvidia are at is propaganda. Just look at the complaints about the performance of the console ports. You know who is not complaining and just playing, people with setups like mine. Market valuation is all about marketing. That is why even though Nvidia did the biggest spike to the community was charging more for their GPUs, after GPU mining died. Then people like you blamed AMD for high prices. Just like Market share. That is also an illusion you see Nvidia has proven that Greed is the motivator and give people software to make them raise pitchforks if a console port does not have it. By the way it has to have the newest card to work properly. Now there are more AMD cards in the space anyway. At least once a week someone joins the 7000 series club.

If I can build an entire AM5 system with a 7900X3D/7900XT for the cost of a 4090 to lose 20% at 4K why would I risk a divorce by spending double for that. You can also thank AMD for that new software package Nvidia just gave you. If that is what you want to do it is your money to do with as you please.

There is no Universe where AMD is as bad as Intel or Nvidia. You should really read the history of Computing. I know that you blasted me for growing up in a Christian home but just think. If everyone in the World did one good deed a day where would we be as a society.
 
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1. Yep going from PCie 3.0 to 4.0 was foolish. Give me a break. Most X470 boards came with x8x8 support for the top 2 PCIe lanes. They also came with updated VRMs and better RAM support so try again. Of course you were not obliged to buy a X470 anyway.

2. If you were the fool that paid $2000+ for a CPU after seeing that AMD delivered improved IPC with every generation that is your own fault. Especially if you are getting it just for regular Computing tasks. X399 still has more I/O than AM5 but you were arguing like TRX40 chips were so much faster the lowest improvement in IPC was going from 3000 to 5000 on AM4 so your argument is actually moot.

3. Yep a business interest. Do you even know the history of Open source.

4. The best thing Nvidia are at is propaganda. Just look at the complaints about the performance of the console ports. You know who is not complaining and just playing, people with setups like mine. Market valuation is all about marketing. That is why even though Nvidia did the biggest spike to the community was charging more for their GPUs, after GPU mining died. Then people like you blamed AMD for high prices. Just like Market share. That is also an illusion you see Nvidia has proven that Greed is the motivator and give people software to make them raise pitchforks if a console port does not have it. By the way it has to have the newest card to work properly. Now there are more AMD cards in the space anyway. At least once a week someone joins the 7000 series club.

If I can build an entire AM5 system with a 7900X3D/7900XT for the cost of a 4090 to lose 20% at 4K why would I risk a divorce by spending double for that. You can also thank AMD for that new software package Nvidia just gave you. If that is what you want to do it is your money to do with as you please.

There is no Universe where AMD is as bad as Intel or Nvidia. You should really read the history of Computing. I know that you blasted me for growing up in a Christian home but just think. If everyone in the World did one good deed a day where would we be as a society.

1. You've begun to nitpick. Like I said, there are no, absolutely zero changes between the 300 and 400 chipsets, it's a straight rebrand. Board quality varies with tier and price, just like you still have garbage A620 boards today. This doesn't change anything on the chipset level.
2. Absolutely not, and now that I think of it, if AMD was always so great and committed to long-life platforms, why did TRX40 even release at all? As it stands, it's the holder of the shortest lifecycle of any platform. Single generation, no refreshes, extremely low availability of spares, and its manufacturer is but a step away from denying it exists altogether... sure one to talk
3. I do. And open-source software is not always done with a particular commitment to freedom. It's often a choice to reduce R&D or maintenance costs. To think otherwise is foolish
4. Do you really believe what you're saying? And I hope you realize the DIY/gaming market has become but a side hustle for the GPU companies. And no, I didn't "blast" you for that... I just made fun because I found it just so incredibly ridiculous that you brought religion into this argument to begin with. AMD does not do good deeds, it does deeds that are relevant to its shareholders' business interests. Just like there's no universe where AMD is "as bad as Intel or Nvidia", there's equally no universe where AMD has products as good or successful as Intel and Nvidia. Which is the entire point. Not even Ryzen, which has become a champion in the DIY space, sells as much as Intel's chips do in overall volume accounting for OEM and mobile channels. And that's with AMD at its strongest.

BTW if I have to thank AMD for the Nvidia app, I wish they hadn't... it's so bad that it might as well stay in beta for another 5 years before I care to move from the NVCP.
 
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1. You've begun to nitpick. Like I said, there are no, absolutely zero changes between the 300 and 400 chipsets, it's a straight rebrand. Board quality varies with tier and price, just like you still have garbage A620 boards today. This doesn't change anything on the chipset level.
2. Absolutely not, and now that I think of it, if AMD was always so great and committed to long-life platforms, why did TRX40 even release at all? As it stands, it's the holder of the shortest lifecycle of any platform. Single generation, no refreshes, extremely low availability of spares, and its manufacturer is but a step away from denying it exists altogether... sure one to talk
3. I do. And open-source software is not always done with a particular commitment to freedom. It's often a choice to reduce R&D or maintenance costs. To think otherwise is foolish
4. Do you really believe what you're saying? And I hope you realize the DIY/gaming market has become but a side hustle for the GPU companies. And no, I didn't "blast" you for that... I just made fun because I found it just so incredibly ridiculous that you brought religion into this argument to begin with. AMD does not do good deeds, it does deeds that are relevant to its shareholders' business interests. Just like there's no universe where AMD is "as bad as Intel or Nvidia", there's equally no universe where AMD has products as good or successful as Intel and Nvidia. Which is the entire point. Not even Ryzen, which has become a champion in the DIY space, sells as much as Intel's chips do in overall volume accounting for OEM and mobile channels. And that's with AMD at its strongest.

BTW if I have to thank AMD for the Nvidia app, I wish they hadn't... it's so bad that it might as well stay in beta for another 5 years before I care to move from the NVCP.
1. What is different about Z590, Z690 and Z790? Do you realize that some of those were released in the same year? It does not matter, most X470 boards came with multiple M2 slots and AC Wifi.

2. Do you understand that Threadripper was an experiment? Yes when MBs were $300 and a 1900X was $300 Threadripper was relevant. By the time TRX40 launched there were reasons for selling the CPU so high and if you got in at first Gen, you still have a powerful PC. It's not like there is not a new Threadripper chip. Why do you care so much about TR anyway. At those prices maybe 2-5% of the Community would actually buy that for something other than work.

3. Can we settle then that with that comment I am in the Gary Kidall camp and you are in the Bill Gates camp..

4. 180+ AM4 builds in the wild. I understand your look at the overall picture but we are not talking about OEM. The title of the thread is 14900KS that is a DIY part. If we keep the argument in that space and leave out the legacy retail channels what happens then? You see power draw matters. If you have threads about 14900K+4090 issues, you can expect the 14900KS to even further create an issue. Better is an opinion.
 
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1. What is different about Z590, Z690 and Z790? Do you realize that some of those were released in the same year? It does not matter, most X470 boards came with multiple M2 slots and AC Wifi.

2. Do you understand that Threadripper was an experiment? Yes when MBs were $300 and a 1900X was $300 Threadripper was relevant. By the time TRX40 launched there were reasons for selling the CPU so high and if you got in at first Gen, you still have a powerful PC. It's not like there is not a new Threadripper chip. Why do you care so much about TR anyway. At those prices maybe 2-5% of the Community would actually buy that for something other than work.

3. Can we settle then that with that comment I am in the Gary Kidall camp and you are in the Bill Gates camp..

4. 180+ AM4 builds in the wild. I understand your look at the overall picture but we are not talking about OEM. The title of the thread is 14900KS that is a DIY part. If we keep the argument in that space and leave out the legacy retail channels what happens then? You see power draw matters. If you have threads about 14900K+4090 issues, you can expect the 14900KS to even further create an issue. Better is an opinion.

1. Practically everything is different between Z590 and Z690, and the Z790 also has changes over the Z690. At least try to argue in good faith
2. Threadripper was not an experiment. It's AMD taking a page from Intel's playbook and selling Epyc unlocked to overclocking for end-users, just like the Core X-series were Xeons. Experiment or not, it's a product that AMD is obliged to support, after all, it's an expensive, high-margin segment that only people who really care purchase
3. We could both be in the Richard Stallman camp and this would remain true. Software engineers are expensive. Open-sourcing the software and letting other people use it in exchange to having it developed at a greatly reduced cost is a business decision.
4. I wasn't the one to bring this up initially, and none of the rest is relevant to the original argumentation

Finally this is a thread about the i9-14900KS and we should take our grievances elsewhere before the mods step in on all of us
 

reggie_fils_aime

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Well, first things first, welcome to the forums and I hope your body is ready for a back and forth mate

1. Let's agree to disagree on the petulance statement: they actually widely publicized that the BIOS ROM size was too small and X370 boards couldn't run Zen 3. This, of course, turned out to be a lie - as all it took was affordable Alder Lake i5's for all Ryzen 5000 series CPUs to get on 300 series boards sharpish, even the cheapest A320's turned out to be fully compatible. Nowadays you can get a 5800X3D and install on it, but for the longest time, you couldn't. Sure, I'm with you that it's not a problem anymore. But it was back then! The 7 years people got out of AM4 were not exactly free of trouble, so while commendable, let's not pretend it's all roses and rainbows, especially if you had interest in upgrading your "long-term platform" like I did. It turns out that giving enthusiasts who buy your high-margin products the middle finger isn't exactly the smartest sales pitch.

2. The Threadripper situation is not justifiable to consumers, only to shareholders - it's obvious they skipped it due to wafer allocation to high-margin segments that experienced unprecedented demand during the pandemic. Why sell even an $4000 chip if you can use the exact same resource for one selling for 8-10k that was obviously backordered as far as the eye could see. They could very much release a TR-5K processor on TRX40 at a budget now that the N7 node isn't in extreme demand anymore, but they likely won't bother. It's a fact that people who adopted the TRX40 platform got hosed. There's no defense of AMD here.

3. Yes, I was. The notion that AMD is a consumer-friendly company is ridiculous, this is the mentality of people who hang out on AMD subreddits. They were losing, which is why they took the necessary steps to play the part. The second that AMD had any significant advantage, suddenly issues such as the one debated in points one and two became routine.

4. Do you remember, perhaps, around 2009, when ATI first introduced Evergreen and had a 6-month head start on NVIDIA for DirectX 11 and Windows 7 compatibility? You could buy a flagship, full die GT200B card with a 512-bit memory bus for around $300. Remember when their dual-core HD5970 card had about the same thermals and power requirements of NVIDIA's single GTX 480? Because I do. That's a graphics division that's no longer coming back. It died around the time Hawaii/Grenada GPUs were retired from the market. It wasn't NVIDIA who "cheated", it was AMD itself who didn't invest the necessary resources on Radeon. The result is what you see today.

and there is no one else to blame but themselves.

Yeah, if you have 4 thousand dollars to spend on a CPU, you probably have 8 thousand dollars to spend on a CPU. The marginal value of a dollar doesn't stop because you got burnt. It's the world's smallest violin, playing "My heart pumps purple goo for you", my guy. I make $20,000 a year.

The "notion" of AMD being consumer-friendly may well be an illusion, but it doesn't stop the reality that AMD has almost always been the company that has catered to actual mainstream consumers. From the 486 chips that stomped pin-compatible DX/4 chips, to the K6, and Athlon x64, finally Ryzen - AMD's position as a literal & actual-factual underdog in the American semiconductor industry has FORCED them to be better to consumers. This is not an opinion, this is a bare fact of our economic system, bore out through established law and hard fought lawsuits.


And you know why the go-for-broke approach that Radeon took in the late 2000s didn't work? Because they were a Canadian company forced to compete to death with Nvidia, a company whose margins were built off of anti-competitive maneuvering and a stronger US dollar vs. the Canadian dollar. AMD obviously bought them to try and make more money, but the devotion some feel to AMD isn't just some sort of smoke and mirrors/snake oil act - in a world where we are forced to choose between corporate behemoths, this is as close to David and Goliath as one can get.

As for the motherboard situation - what do you want them to do in that scenario? They had legacy processors to support, heard nobody gave a rat's ass about them, and dropped support for the non-ryzen chips to make room in the bios IC. They fixed it, and you didn't wait long enough. That's tough cookies. Sorry to hear it, but again, they fixed it and you're hung up on it.

Edit: lmfao @ Nvidia did "something right". They forcefully immolated everyone else in early 3D graphics, was allowed to do so by federal authorities, and had it cleaned up before anyone had an inkling about what happened. Their more recent reviewer program snafu and the AI Cartel accusations are how they do "something" right when they think nobody is looking. You're seriously ignorant if you think otherwise. Something right! Jesus.
 
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The "notion" of AMD being consumer-friendly may well be an illusion, but it doesn't stop the reality that AMD has almost always been the company that has catered to actual mainstream consumers. From the 486 chips that stomped pin-compatible DX/4 chips, to the K6, and Athlon x64, finally Ryzen - AMD's position as a literal & actual-factual underdog in the American semiconductor industry has FORCED them to be better to consumers. This is not an opinion, this is a bare fact of our economic system, bore out through established law and hard fought lawsuits.

And you know why the go-for-broke approach that Radeon took in the late 2000s didn't work? Because they were a Canadian company forced to compete to death with Nvidia, a company whose margins were built off of anti-competitive maneuvering and a stronger US dollar vs. the Canadian dollar. AMD obviously bought them to try and make more money, but the devotion some feel to AMD isn't just some sort of smoke and mirrors/snake oil act - in a world where we are forced to choose between corporate behemoths, this is as close to David and Goliath as one can get.
Those mirror my opinions.

You always have to reminder yourself that even the underdog is still a greedy corporation trying to make as much profit from us consumers as legally possible, but it's still better for us little people to support the underdog simply in the hopes that they don't fail and leave us with a far worse situation; utter, and total monopoly with zero incentive to compete on value and zero incentive to give consumers anything for free.
 
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Those mirror my opinions.

You always have to reminder yourself that even the underdog is still a greedy corporation trying to make as much profit from us consumers as legally possible, but it's still better for us little people to support the underdog simply in the hopes that they don't fail and leave us with a far worse situation; utter, and total monopoly with zero incentive to compete on value and zero incentive to give consumers anything for free.

The fact that we're treating another multi billion dollar megacorporation as an underdog is what I can't stand for. None of these companies are our friends and they don't have our best interests at heart.

I'll agree that it's worth buying from AMD, but only on the merit of their products. Not because I have a religious, civic or moral duty to support this corporation. I couldn't care less about what AMD had to endure 25 years ago or how their competitors play dirty. It's business and business is ruthless, this doesn't earn them any sympathy from me.

I refuse to bestow the quality of underdog to AMD. They've got their big boy pants on, billions of cash on hand. It's high time we start treating them accordingly.

Yeah, if you have 4 thousand dollars to spend on a CPU, you probably have 8 thousand dollars to spend on a CPU. The marginal value of a dollar doesn't stop because you got burnt. It's the world's smallest violin, playing "My heart pumps purple goo for you", my guy. I make $20,000 a year.

The "notion" of AMD being consumer-friendly may well be an illusion, but it doesn't stop the reality that AMD has almost always been the company that has catered to actual mainstream consumers. From the 486 chips that stomped pin-compatible DX/4 chips, to the K6, and Athlon x64, finally Ryzen - AMD's position as a literal & actual-factual underdog in the American semiconductor industry has FORCED them to be better to consumers. This is not an opinion, this is a bare fact of our economic system, bore out through established law and hard fought lawsuits.


And you know why the go-for-broke approach that Radeon took in the late 2000s didn't work? Because they were a Canadian company forced to compete to death with Nvidia, a company whose margins were built off of anti-competitive maneuvering and a stronger US dollar vs. the Canadian dollar. AMD obviously bought them to try and make more money, but the devotion some feel to AMD isn't just some sort of smoke and mirrors/snake oil act - in a world where we are forced to choose between corporate behemoths, this is as close to David and Goliath as one can get.

As for the motherboard situation - what do you want them to do in that scenario? They had legacy processors to support, heard nobody gave a rat's ass about them, and dropped support for the non-ryzen chips to make room in the bios IC. They fixed it, and you didn't wait long enough. That's tough cookies. Sorry to hear it, but again, they fixed it and you're hung up on it.

Edit: lmfao @ Nvidia did "something right". They forcefully immolated everyone else in early 3D graphics, was allowed to do so by federal authorities, and had it cleaned up before anyone had an inkling about what happened. Their more recent reviewer program snafu and the AI Cartel accusations are how they do "something" right when they think nobody is looking. You're seriously ignorant if you think otherwise. Something right! Jesus.

End of the day you went around and around and either validated my points or called their dishonesty issues a "me" problem, attempting to justify it in some deeply rooted resentment of problems that occurred 20 to 30 years ago. Get over it man, Otellini's Intel of the early 2000s is no more. Not even the guy's alive anymore.

Perhaps they are "me" problems to some extent, but in my condition as a consumer and enthusiast I clearly chose not to support them anymore. The result: they lost my business. Which is fine, after all what's one guy in the entire market?
 
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I refuse to bestow the quality of underdog to AMD. They've got their big boy pants on, billions of cash on hand. It's high time we start treating them accordingly.

When they make a desultory move we will give them that. Did you not already state that Intel and Nvidia have a way bigger market cap than AMD? By definition that makes them the undedog. Just look at how people like you argue with me about the way my PC performs. because I have a stupid CPU and a not worth it GPU.
 
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I refuse to bestow the quality of underdog to AMD. They've got their big boy pants on, billions of cash on hand. It's high time we start treating them accordingly.

When they make a desultory move we will give them that. Did you not already state that Intel and Nvidia have a way bigger market cap than AMD? By definition that makes them the undedog. Just look at how people like you argue with me about the way my PC performs. because I have a stupid CPU and a not worth it GPU.

No one including myself ever said your computer is bad. What we did say is given your needs and what you do with your computer that your money could have been better spent, with a cheaper and faster 7800X3D and a better GPU, whether that be a XTX or a 4080+, since you've always made it clear that budget was a concern while building it. You just get defensive over it on the clock and often without people even mentioning it at all.

Yes they do have a way bigger market cap but it's not like AMD is a small company either. They're currently valued at $268 billion USD, around 100 bn more than Intel that's currently valued at $168 to 169 billion or so. Following this logic, we should be giving Intel all the benefit of the doubt and praising each and every little effort they make with unquestionable happiness and loyalty. Intel's open source efforts in their graphics division, "long life" of the LGA 1700 socket and all.

BTW, Nvidia's at $2.15 trillion... Wish I had bought $NVDA on time.
 

dgianstefani

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I refuse to bestow the quality of underdog to AMD. They've got their big boy pants on, billions of cash on hand. It's high time we start treating them accordingly.

When they make a desultory move we will give them that. Did you not already state that Intel and Nvidia have a way bigger market cap than AMD? By definition that makes them the undedog.
So which is it?

Just look at how people like you argue with me about the way my PC performs. because I have a stupid CPU and a not worth it GPU.
You said it.
 
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So which is it?
I think that's @kapone32 failing to use the quote tags correctly, since that's @Dr. Dro's quote, originally.

There is no arguing that AMD isn't an underdog. Anyone disagreeing needs to look up the definition of that word. AMD are in an inferior position with a small marketshare and are playing in an unfair contest where the competition has been convicted of anti-competitive practices. Worse than that, the punitive damages their opposition were forced to pay AMD didn't even make a scratch in the profits their illicit behaviour gained them in the first place, and for AMD it wasn't even 10% of of the potential earnings they missed out on. The budget Nvidia spends on contributing to (ie, bribing) developers to use their proprietary, closed-source APIs is more than AMD's entire financial stream!

Having "billions" still makes AMD an underdog when they are competitng on two fronts against Intel and Nvidia. Their revenue for the last year was $5.4bn compared to Intel's 69.4bn and Nvidia's 60.9b, so they are operating with less than 4% of the money that their opposition have. If that's not an underdog I don't know what is.
 
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So which is it?
My thoughts AMD is underdog in GPU market and CPU they are really making strides in both consumer and server markets to not be the underdog anymore thanks to Ryzen.
In terms of business Intel/Nvidia is still considerably larger and AMD is still the underdog in that respect potentially loosing out to pressures they can impose on the market.

I feel like Intel could choose to sacrifice a few eCores or pCores with more on-die cache, push 400w, slap a gaming CPU sticker on it and be competitive with X3D despite being on an older node. They ended up choosing the ecore route to stop the bleeding but even they've got to see how X3D is changing the gaming landscape. If I wanted to put together a new gaming only rig it's X3D all the way as long as the price isn't insane.
 

dgianstefani

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My thoughts AMD is underdog in GPU market and CPU they are really making strides in both consumer and server markets to not be the underdog anymore thanks to Ryzen.
In terms of business Intel/Nvidia is still considerably larger and AMD is still the underdog in that respect potentially loosing out to pressures they can impose on the market.

I feel like Intel could choose to sacrifice a few eCores or pCores with more on-die cache, push 400w, slap a gaming CPU sticker on it and be competitive with X3D despite being on an older node. They ended up choosing the ecore route to stop the bleeding but even they've got to see how X3D is changing the gaming landscape. If I wanted to put together a new gaming only rig it's X3D all the way as long as the price isn't insane.
Eh, I'd build Intel if I had to choose today.

X3D is nice for singleplayer games, but it's not as good for multiplayer. Frequency, latency, and IPC wins in general, cache is situational. Plus Intel with highly tuned memory scales very well.
Exactly.

You guys are arguing that AMD isn't an underdog. I think you need to look up the definition of that word. They are in an inferior position with a small marketshare and are playing in an unfair contest where the competition has been convicted of anti-competitive practices. Worse than that, the punitive damages their opposition were forced to pay AMD didn't even make a scratch in the profits their illicit behaviour gained them in the first place, and for AMD it wasn't even 10% of of the potential earnings they missed out on.

Having "billions" still makes AMD an underdog when they are competitng on two fronts against Intel and Nvidia. Their revenue for the last year was $5.4bn compared to Intel's 69.4bn and Nvidia's 60.9b, so they are operating with less than 4% of the money that their opposition have. If that's not an underdog I don't know what is.
If they're in such a bad position (I don't think so) maybe they should stop playing the same segmentation games their much larger competitors do.

e.g. -5-10% in price with a worse "equivalent" featureset, a bit more VRAM (but this does not improve performance, NVIDIA equivalents are still faster at each resolution), but two generations behind in AI and RT isn't acceptable. There's good reasons why NVIDIA is the preferred choice for both consumer and corporate functions.

Similarly, the instant AMD gets better performance in certain benchmarks, they up their prices above Intel. E.g. Zen 3, Zen 4. The value offer is actually Intel for CPUs, at both the high end and the low end.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/1bsjm5a
The professionals absolutely ripping AMD practices in the comments want AMD to succeed. But doing the bare minimum to get "parity" isn't acceptable in the corporate world, and I don't believe it should be in the consumer world either.
 
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The fact that we're treating another multi billion dollar megacorporation as an underdog is what I can't stand for. None of these companies are our friends and they don't have our best interests at heart.
It's like you failed to even read the whole sentence that I used the word "underdog" in:

"even the underdog is still a greedy corporation trying to make as much profit from us consumers as legally possible"

We agree, I think, but your reading comprehension needs some work - which is what is causing needless argument here.

If they're in such a bad position (I don't think so) maybe they should stop playing the same segmentation games their much larger competitors do.

e.g. -5-10% in price with a worse "equivalent" featureset, a bit more VRAM (but this does not improve performance, NVIDIA equivalents are still faster at each resolution), but two generations behind in AI and RT isn't acceptable. There's good reasons why NVIDIA is the preferred choice for both consumer and corporate functions.

Similarly, the instant AMD gets better performance in certain benchmarks, they up their prices above Intel. E.g. Zen 3, Zen 4. The value offer is actually Intel for CPUs, at both the high end and the low end.
I can't speak for AMD but I think they're selling literally everything that their TSMC allocations allow them make at good margins. Their goal is to make profit and they appear to be doing that, slowly, even if it's not as good for us consumers as it could be.

The limiting factor these days appears to be TSMC allocation, so it makes sense to charge as much for your products as you can get away with. I don't like it, but that's just how the industry has always worked.
 
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It's like you failed to even read the whole sentence that I used the word "underdog" in:

"even the underdog is still a greedy corporation trying to make as much profit from us consumers as legally possible"

We agree, I think, but your reading comprehension needs some work - which is what is causing needless argument here.

Oh no, I think we got a misunderstanding between us here. I got what you meant, 100%. I just meant to put my thoughts into it after quoting you and it became a bit of a convoluted mess. Wrote that reply on my phone early in the morning :oops:
 
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So which is it?


You said it.
Sometimes I am shocked that you are a staff member when you have such a biased opinion. There is no CPU that is slow in what we are offered today. Everyone does not use their PC in the exact same way and the main thing is are THEY enjoying it. Your thoughts have no influence on the performance of my PC.
 
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