Intel Core i9-9900K De-lidded, Soldered TIM Outperformed by Liquid Metal

[jmcosta]

Your other points are valid but there is no shortness of longevity on liquid metal. It's a metallic compound, it will literally last decades.

while that is true, from my experience i have been forced to reapply triennially my cpus.
This is because the liquid damages any surface, it is less reactive against nickel plating but it does degrade over time, the same for copper that absorbs it.
but again for enthusiasts, is no big deal since people change their hardware every 2-3years.

 

[John Naylor]

Let me guess, you tried prime with avx instruction which is unrealistic so this nonsense with liquid tim is total waste of time except for milking people to do delid and -9C is marginal -15-20C would be acceptable so yeah.

I had to skip thru the video cause he's hard to listen to ... but yes, it's obvious going in that the process started with an agenda ... to sell delidding kits and TIM. I didn't seem him mention what he was using for cooling. Since Sandy Bridge, other than possibly Bridge I have a hard time making a case for delidding as for every build, the OC was limited by the voltage wall rather than any temperature concern. If you are building a PC to run programs or play games, what is the point of testing with a synthetic torture test program ? Do we test SUVs by having them tow a tractor trailer up the Rocky Montains ? Do we test mouse traps on Louisiana's 20 pound Coypus ? Is the purpose of building / overclocking a PC to get ones name on a web site leader board for lowest temps / biggest OC or to accomplish tasks ?

Or is it about squeezing the best possible performance out of a CPU / GPU when doing stuff you might actually do ? If you want to show me that Intel doesn't know what they are doing show me the CPU overheating with a core voltage under 1.4 running RoG Real Bench ... then I'll pay attention.

Why doesn't GM put a SUV on the road with the ability to tow 80,000 pound loads ? Because it's a) not cost effective b) serves no useful purpose and c) because what they are doing produces temperatures well below that of any concern doing what the PC is supposed to do. If you are running H264 at 5.0 GHz and 72C, you don't get any bonus points for delidding and doing it at 62C. All it gets you is bragging rights at www.minesbigger.com

 

[R-T-B]

If you are building a PC to run programs or play games, what is the point of testing with a synthetic torture test program ?

What is the point of synthetic crash tests done with automobile safety?

Do we test SUVs by having them tow a tractor trailer up the Rocky Montains

Ever seen a Ford or Dodge Truck commercial?

We put them in the worst possible conditions so we know more about the probability of catastrophic failure. If it fails in the worst case scenario, there is a chance (however small) it is going to do the same under less stressful circumstances.

 

[John Naylor]

for gamers and overclockers the 9900K is a fail.

For gamers, its strictly an extemely poor choice .... might as well point at the 2950x and call that a gaming fail. Neither are products that will impact a gamer in any significant way outside their wallets.

 

[hat]

Gamers should probably choose 9600k.

 

[Ruru]

1 hour to grind down the die, far too long for me. where did I put my angle grinder. All jokes aside, is it worth it for around 6c from delidded to lowering the height of the die.

In my case, even 1C lower temperature is always great. Fan noise..

Though I have a custom loop with 2x 240 rads and play games with headphones on..

 

[John Naylor]

What is the point of synthetic crash tests done with automobile safety?

Ever seen a Ford or Dodge Truck commercial?

We put them in the worst possible conditions so we know more about the probability of catastrophic failure. If it fails in the worst case scenario, there is a chance (however small) it is going to do the same under less stressful circumstances.

1. Synthetic Crash Tests:

What's the point ? a) Nobody has to die seems like a good one to me and b) the test are done under **real life** conditions ... you know normal traveling speeds and impacts that are likely to occur driving around town. Crashing them head on into the space shuttle at 175 mph while the shuttle is landing might be equivalent to P95 test but both fall outside of real world possibilities. Doing crash tests at impossible impact loads on a TV program called "Let's see what crazy shite we can do next" is not likely to have an impact on auto safety standards.

Front crash test - 35 - 40 mph depending on who doing the tests
Side crash test - 38.5 mph
Rear Crash test = 25 mph

Understand the difference ? RoG Real Bench multitasking test would be the vehicle crash test equivalent of front, side and rear collisions at the same time at about 65 mph. P95 w/ AVX is the equivalent of a having a head-on with the Space Shuttle on your way to Walmart. Not exactly a "real world" scanario. In addition, of what use is a OC that passes 24 hours of P95 running 8 identical task threads when it fails in a multitasking unbalanced load test in 45 minutes, it's happened to me.

2. TV Commercials

Are you really trying to prove your point by claiming realism in TV commercials ? Next you'll tell me that case fans are capable of delivering their advertised specs (50% is typical) and monitors have the response times and HDs can fit the amount of GB (instead of 93% of what is) claimed in their ads. I can tell you this.... I have tried my son's Axe Body Spray and I didn't have 6 supermodels following me around the supermarket like in the commercial. The 10 second stunts represented in TV commercials are not "real life". Try pulling that 80,000 pound trailer up 7,000 feet in elevation at 65 mph in the rockies at 120F and you will have the equivalent of a P95 AVX test.

https://www.truthinadvertising.org/category/ad-alerts/tv-ads/

3. Worse **possible** condition

Agreed, but let's use all of the words you used .... emphasis being on the middle word. You didn't say "worst condition one can possibly create using loads that no combination of applications will generate and now matter how irrelevant to real word usage". The Prime 96 AVX test does not meet that "possible" qualifier with the exception of pursuing the next mersenne prime .... I'm not likely to live that long let alone my next build and I don't see AVX helping here.

Want to cause a catastrophic failure ? I have run P95 w/o AVX on my current box and stayed stable for 24 hours. It crashed in Real Bench's multi-tasking benchmark in 45 minutes. P95 places an identical load on all cores which is very different than placing varying loads on multiple cores, some using modern instruction sets and some not.

No matter what combination off programs / games we run on my PCs, it's simply not possible to create a similar load scenario to P95 w/ AVX. So the idea that P95 represents a real world **possible** scenario is blatantly false. Even RoG Real Bench pushes the validity of the word "possible" to its limits in real world usage.

In my case, even 1C lower temperature is always great. Fan noise..

Though I have a custom loop with 2x 240 rads and play games with headphones on..

Just for clarification ... is it 1C core temps or 1C case temps that are the concern ? And what fan speeds are you seeing called for ?

I see gaming CPU core temps from low 50s (5 x 140mm of rad ... 700 watts or so of "max component generated heat") to mid 60s / GPUs from 39C (1200 rpm) to 44C (850 rpm max).... coolant temps max out at 33 - 34C, case temps at 26 - 28C. Water temps are measured in and out of the 2 rads (4 sensors) with 2 more sensors measuring case and ambient air temps. Accuracy is 0/1 C and displayed with a Reven 6 Eyes" in 5-1/4 drive bay. Air turnover is estimated at 2-3 times per second. Fans are inaudible at up to 850 rpm and pr outside of stress testing with Firmark / RoG RB. Presets allowing range of 350 - 850 rpm, but have yest to see them break 650... fans shut off is curve asks for < 350 rpm.

So getting to why I asked, wanted to understand the fan curve where 1C raise in CPU temp makes an audible difference. I have been using a "Inaudible PC" rule of thumb of:

1 fan per 50 - 75 watts of component usage for 120mm
1 fan per 75 - 100 watts of component usage for 140mm

As using the above has not left us with a build that is audible in any real world usage scenario (stress testing excluded) , Id like to see just how far that Rule of Thumb might be relaxed. With you sitting on the edge, your data would be a boon to that understanding

 

[R-T-B]

the test are done under **real life** conditions

I would argue the impact is hopefully not an average operating condition.

I have run P95 w/o AVX on my current box and stayed stable for 24 hours. It crashed in Real Bench's multi-tasking benchmark in 45 minutes. P95 places an identical load on all cores which is very different than placing varying loads on multiple cores, some using modern instruction sets and some not.

I agree, I am only arguing P95 and the like is not useless. I find Small FFTs and Large FFTs together useful for a short run. If it can handle 10 minutes without hitting thermal issues or crashing, it is usually a strong indicator for stability. Other tests follow.

Are you really trying to prove your point by claiming realism in TV commercials ?

No. I was simply laughing at the absurdity of car commercials, and how you basically described one. Not seriously considering them for a second remotely realistic.

 

[oxidized]

Uhh... isn't solder also "liquid metal" for a brief time, until it cools? Or does the physical state of matter actually... matter?

What? No! The solder doesn't melt, it requires a much higher temp to melt compared to classic paste or gallium.

That's why it's called solder.

 

[uuuaaaaaa]

What? No! The solder doesn't melt, it requires a much higher temp to melt compared to classic paste or gallium.

That's why it's called solder.

The cpu copper heatspreader is also liquid metal until it cools enough

 

[oxidized]

The cpu copper heatspreader is also liquid metal until it cools enough

 

[hat]

What? No! The solder doesn't melt, it requires a much higher temp to melt compared to classic paste or gallium.

That's why it's called solder.

Of course I wouldn't think it would melt at any point after leaving the factory... but what I mean is, when the solder is initially applied at said factory, it's in a liquid state, and then it cools and solidifies. That means (to me) that optimum contact should have already been achieved at this point... unless it loses some contact during cooling and solidifying.

I'm not calling you out or saying you're wrong or anything, more so trying to expand my own knowledge by asking questions.

 

[trog100]

i would guess they would use solder paste at the factory.. its applied just like paste (it is a paste) the two parts pressed together then heated up and it does the soldering job.. i have used it.. its quite clever stuff for certain kinds of soldering..

trog

 

[TheGuruStud]

Wait. Now, tortute testing CPus is taboo and useless? Man, intel is still being meat shielded.

It's a half ass attempt, b/c it's very hard to cool. Otherwise, you'd still get toothpaste. They deserve all the bashing they get. They're STILL trying to pinch pennies with a CPU of this cost.

Flame em back to pentium 4 days and quit buying this garbo. They haven't learned anything.

 

[hat]

Wait. Now, tortute testing CPus is taboo and useless? Man, intel is still being meat shielded.

It's a half ass attempt, b/c it's very hard to cool. Otherwise, you'd still get toothpaste. They deserve all the bashing they get. They're STILL trying to pinch pennies with a CPU of this cost.

Flame em back to pentium 4 days and quit buying this garbo. They haven't learned anything.

I mostly agree with this. This "sTIM" doesn't seem like a real soldering job to me... and you know it'd be toothpaste if it wasn't a fusion reactor we were trying to cool.

 

[Zubasa]

Wait. Now, tortute testing CPus is taboo and useless? Man, intel is still being meat shielded.

It's a half ass attempt, b/c it's very hard to cool. Otherwise, you'd still get toothpaste. They deserve all the bashing they get. They're STILL trying to pinch pennies with a CPU of this cost.

Flame em back to pentium 4 days and quit buying this garbo. They haven't learned anything.

Yup it has come to the point where 1337 gamers thinks PCs are nothing but extremely overpriced game consoles.
Basically you have people trying to defend an unstable OC by blaming the stress test tools instead of a poor soldering process,
and its on a product which you are expected to pay $600 for.
CPUs should be and are made to be stable to be run any of its supported workloads indefinitely and that includes AVX.

Funny thing is same can be said about FMA3, people have bashed it of being unrealistic, etc.
The irony is Monster Hunter World originally would crash on SandyBridge CPUs because the game uses FMA3 and the older CPUs doesnt support it.

 

[TheGuruStud]

Yup it has come to the point where 1337 gamers thinks PCs are nothing but extremely overpriced game consoles.
Basically you have people trying to defend an unstable OC by blaming the stress test tools instead of a poor soldering process,
and its on a product which you are expected to pay $600 for.
CPUs should be and are made to be stable to be run any of its supported workloads indefinitely and that includes AVX.

Funny thing is same can be said about FMA3, people have bashed it of being unrealistic, etc.
The irony is Monster Hunter World originally would crash on SandyBridge CPUs because the game uses FMA3 and the older CPUs doesnt support it.

That's sad. FMA is great. Encoding performance is amazing with it. I guess we better not encode anything.

 

[oxidized]

Of course I wouldn't think it would melt at any point after leaving the factory... but what I mean is, when the solder is initially applied at said factory, it's in a liquid state, and then it cools and solidifies. That means (to me) that optimum contact should have already been achieved at this point... unless it loses some contact during cooling and solidifying.

I'm not calling you out or saying you're wrong or anything, more so trying to expand my own knowledge by asking questions.

Oh i know, that was only my reaction to what you wrote, but i guess i misunderstood it. Yeah to apply it, it's in a partial liquid state, but once it solidifies it stays like that, and it's going to conduct less, simply because it's not in liquid state when it performs its duty as conductor between the IHS and the "hot plate"

 

[Vayra86]

Yup it has come to the point where 1337 gamers thinks PCs are nothing but extremely overpriced game consoles.
Basically you have people trying to defend an unstable OC by blaming the stress test tools instead of a poor soldering process,
and its on a product which you are expected to pay $600 for.
CPUs should be and are made to be stable to be run any of its supported workloads indefinitely and that includes AVX.

Funny thing is same can be said about FMA3, people have bashed it of being unrealistic, etc.
The irony is Monster Hunter World originally would crash on SandyBridge CPUs because the game uses FMA3 and the older CPUs doesnt support it.

Thát was precisely what I was alluding to earlier. It was funny how people were and still are using some very twisted logic to 'defend' their OC stability. Ever since Kaby Lake's hot 7700K, we've all seen them. Hell, even some mods on this forum have said it. People I really hadn't expected to see saying such things, ever.

Its not a big deal to me, each and every one should run their CPU as they see fit. But it is telling. And it also speaks of a lack of knowledge, because AVX is most certainly used even in gaming, and we actually are seeing more of it everywhere. Even if just part of the code. So 'we' blame AVX, we blame bad TIM or shitty application of it, and now even the soldered TIM is apparently done badly 'because 9900K gets hot'.

That is one weird way to view a clear trend of CPUs getting warmer as core counts and base/turbo clocks increase on the same node.

 

[B-Real]

Perfect case of watch what you ask for.

As far as I remember, Ryzen was delidded too and he couldn't lower temperature there. So this is not true...

 

[R-T-B]

As far as I remember, Ryzen was delidded too and he couldn't lower temperature there. So this is not true...

It was lowered but not much. Like 2 degrees C IIRC

 

[hat]

Oh i know, that was only my reaction to what you wrote, but i guess i misunderstood it. Yeah to apply it, it's in a partial liquid state, but once it solidifies it stays like that, and it's going to conduct less, simply because it's not in liquid state when it performs its duty as conductor between the IHS and the "hot plate"

So it conducts better simply because it's in a liquid state, or does it just make better contact that way?

 

[oxidized]

So it conducts better simply because it's in a liquid state, or does it just make better contact that way?

It does exactly because it's in liquid state, electrons move faster and easier compared to solid state, the fact it makes better contact is true, but irrelevant in this situation.
The same reason why we have liquid coolers cooling better than air coolers (even air coolers have liquid within the heatpipes).

 

[hat]

It does exactly because it's in liquid state, electrons move faster and easier compared to solid state, the fact it makes better contact is true, but irrelevant in this situation.
The same reason why we have liquid coolers cooling better than air coolers (even air coolers have liquid within the heatpipes).

I figured that was because you're not only moving the heat to a big(er) radiator with lots of fans, but you're doing so with water, which is denser than air so should conduct heat better. That's probably true anyway, but when it comes to TIM I suppose your argument for liquid simply transferring heat better than a solid is valid.

 

[oxidized]

I figured that was because you're not only moving the heat to a big(er) radiator with lots of fans, but you're doing so with water, which is denser than air so should conduct heat better. That's probably true anyway, but when it comes to TIM I suppose your argument for liquid simply transferring heat better than a solid is valid.

Well not every material has better conductivity at liquid state compared to solid, but most of metals do afaik, that's why conductivity of materials, is often specified at a particular temperature.