Keyboard sizes....

[claes]

I’m switching between 40 and 60 lately, but this is the wrong forum to ask and get anything resembling objective results. There’s a real aversion to less than full-size boards from many very vocal users here for some reason. Only odd because people here seem to think there’s a lack of full-size keyboards on the market, but there are a ton of 100%+ models but TPU doesn’t cover keyboard like that.

 

[Deleted member 229121]

I’m switching between 40 and 60 lately, but this is the wrong forum to ask and get anything resembling objective results. There’s a real aversion to less than full-size boards from many very vocal users here for some reason. Only odd because people here seem to think there’s a lack of full-size keyboards on the market, but there are a ton of 100%+ models but TPU doesn’t cover keyboard like that.

 

[tabascosauz]

Made some edits to the poll, please re-vote

 

[mechtech]

I have a regular full size keyboard...............but I think I would prefer one with the numpad on the left instead of the right...............

 

[Chrispy_]

Honest questions (as a TKL 80% fan):

1. What is it that makes you go "I need a smaller keyboard"? Do you pop it in a pocket and travel with it regularly, or do you have other physical/environmental constraints that warrant a keyboard narrower than the ~35cm of a TKL?
   
   
2. There are actual missing keys from anything smaller than 80%. I don't think the missing keys from a 75% or 65% are too critical to casual users and non-gamers, but you can't really get away with Fn+key combos for gaming, coding, scripting. Do you do any of those things?
   
   
3. How do you find using other keyboards that aren't your layout, and are you a touch-typist?

I've used so many keyboards and keyboard layouts I've lost count, and I learned to use keyboards with one of these so I was raised on layers:


Having sampled so many keyboards over so many years, I truly value a standard layout. It may not seem like much but 90wpm with 99%+ accuracy is just so much more effective than 60wpm with 95% accuracy, and more keys around my WASD cluster is a boon for gaming. I don't unplug my keyboard(s) and take them with me, and I don't have a desk or lap so small that I need to shave two keys of width off my keyboard. That's my perspective, so what's yours?

As to the vocal anti-small keyboard people here, I guess I'm one of them. I support over a thousand users and obviously there are a few keyboard enthusiasts in that group - but the overwhelming majority, as in actually over 99% do not like small keyboards - yet the Youtubers and reviewers all seem to get sent teeny tiny keyboards with missing keys that compromise functionality for some reason. I suspect it's "cool" to have a teeny tiny keyboard in your "show off your desk" threads, because that's what the Youtubers who get sent free keyboards use. I don't know why. It seems disproportionate to the real world data of what size keyboards people want/buy. Perhaps small keyboards are more profitable, perhaps there's some genuine reason that I'm overlooking, but to me (and this is just my personal opinion without any hard data to back it up) I strongly suspect based on my own sample size of users that >95% of people want full-size or 80% keyboards at a minimum - and the overwhelming majority of reviews and press coverage is exclusively smaller layouts that aren't what most people actually want.

That is why I'm vocal - the possibility that we are being manipulated by manufacturers, or misrepresented by a lack of keyboard reviewers interested in "normal" keyboards that most people actually want.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having smaller keyboards on the market, nor do I begrudge having reviews of those keyboards. Even if I'm not going to buy them, I still read @VSG's reviews - but wherever you look, the reviews, the hype, the advertising, and the PR is disproportionately 75% or smaller layouts. When was the last TPU review of a full-sized keyboard, for example? (April, and November 2022 before that) and we've had 25+ smaller layout reviews. It's not a pattern exclusive to TPU, of course - I'm just using this site as an example where a minority of the audience gets 80-90% of the review coverage, and the majority of the audience is unserved. If that's where the money is, I can certainly see that's where the marketing and review samples are going to be, too.

I have a regular full size keyboard...............but I think I would prefer one with the numpad on the left instead of the right...............

TLK and separate numpad. A few southpaws at the office have requested that and I can totally see why.

 

[claes]

What is it that makes you go "I need a smaller keyboard"? Do you pop it in a pocket and travel with it regularly, or do you have other physical/environmental constraints that warrant a keyboard narrower than the ~35cm of a TKL?

Ergonomics is why for me

There are actual missing keys from anything smaller than 80%. I don't think the missing keys from a 75% or 65% are too critical to casual users and non-gamers, but you can't really get away with Fn+key combos for gaming,

Don’t need combos for the majority of games

coding, scripting.

Macros are fun

Do you do any of those things?

Yes

How do you find using other keyboards that aren't your layout,

Have to get used to every new layout

and are you a touch-typist?

Yup, with similar accuracy, just takes a few days to get used to things

This is what I meant though — go to stack exchange or GitHub and you’ll find people love 60/65% keyboards despite missing keys or whatever. If anything, for me, combos are way faster than reaching for keys, despite the learning curve. I have a separate numpad for those occasions, but even playing around with 40%, as inconvenient as it is, is more productive for me than a full-size.

 

[tabascosauz]

Honest questions (as a TKL 80% fan):

1. What is it that makes you go "I need a smaller keyboard"? Do you pop it in a pocket and travel with it regularly, or do you have other physical/environmental constraints that warrant a keyboard narrower than the ~35cm of a TKL?
   
   
2. There are actual missing keys from anything smaller than 80%. I don't think the missing keys from a 75% or 65% are too critical to casual users and non-gamers, but you can't really get away with Fn+key combos for gaming, coding, scripting. Do you do any of those things?
   
   
3. How do you find using other keyboards that aren't your layout, and are you a touch-typist?

I am a TKL user now, but was exclusively 60% for a very long time. It's not a stretch to say that basically the entire custom keyboard scene originated from 60%, as soon as the V60/Poker style layout was standardized. You want cases, PCBs, plates? Sure, as long as it's 60%. Nowadays you'll find plenty of customs of all sizes, but back in the day that wasn't the case.

It's not that hard to get used to shortcut keys on a 60%. Fn layer is your friend. That said.......when you get into more complex games and the sim community in general, the lack of function row and arrow keys becomes very painful.

This was also when I flew all the time with my PC; 60% is the perfect size for travel. I've had 66% (FC660M and Clueboard), 75% (KBD75), they just don't come close in portability.

 

[Chrispy_]

Thanks, those answers sort of help, but some clarification, if you don't mind:

Ergonomics is why for me

As in the incursion of a larger keyboard into your mousing area, or because you don't want to ever move your hands from the home row, no exceptions?

Don’t need combos for the majority of games

Do you have a larger keyboard you plug in for the minority of games, or do you just compromise with combos?

Have to get used to every new layout.
Just takes a few days to get used to things

Ah, sounds like you don't change between different layouts daily. Is that a correct assumption?

 

[Deleted member 229121]

Honest questions (as a TKL 80% fan):

1. What is it that makes you go "I need a smaller keyboard"? Do you pop it in a pocket and travel with it regularly, or do you have other physical/environmental constraints that warrant a keyboard narrower than the ~35cm of a TKL?
   
   
2. There are actual missing keys from anything smaller than 80%. I don't think the missing keys from a 75% or 65% are too critical to casual users and non-gamers, but you can't really get away with Fn+key combos for gaming, coding, scripting. Do you do any of those things?
   
   
3. How do you find using other keyboards that aren't your layout, and are you a touch-typist?

I've used so many keyboards and keyboard layouts I've lost count, and I learned to use keyboards with one of these so I was raised on layers:
View attachment 311191

Having sampled so many keyboards over so many years, I truly value a standard layout. It may not seem like much but 90wpm with 99%+ accuracy is just so much more effective than 60wpm with 95% accuracy, and more keys around my WASD cluster is a boon for gaming. I don't unplug my keyboard(s) and take them with me, and I don't have a desk or lap so small that I need to shave two keys of width off my keyboard. That's my perspective, so what's yours?

As to the vocal anti-small keyboard people here, I guess I'm one of them. I support over a thousand users and obviously there are a few keyboard enthusiasts in that group - but the overwhelming majority, as in actually over 99% do not like small keyboards - yet the Youtubers and reviewers all seem to get sent teeny tiny keyboards with missing keys that compromise functionality for some reason. I suspect it's "cool" to have a teeny tiny keyboard in your "show off your desk" threads, because that's what the Youtubers who get sent free keyboards use. I don't know why. It seems disproportionate to the real world data of what size keyboards people want/buy. Perhaps small keyboards are more profitable, perhaps there's some genuine reason that I'm overlooking, but to me (and this is just my personal opinion without any hard data to back it up) I strongly suspect based on my own sample size of users that >95% of people want full-size or 80% keyboards at a minimum - and the overwhelming majority of reviews and press coverage is exclusively smaller layouts that aren't what most people actually want.

That is why I'm vocal - the possibility that we are being manipulated by manufacturers, or misrepresented by a lack of keyboard reviewers interested in "normal" keyboards that most people actually want.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having smaller keyboards on the market, nor do I begrudge having reviews of those keyboards. Even if I'm not going to buy them, I still read @VSG's reviews - but wherever you look, the reviews, the hype, the advertising, and the PR is disproportionately 75% or smaller layouts. When was the last TPU review of a full-sized keyboard, for example? (April, and November 2022 before that) and we've had 25+ smaller layout reviews. It's not a pattern exclusive to TPU, of course - I'm just using this site as an example where a minority of the audience gets 80-90% of the review coverage, and the majority of the audience is unserved. If that's where the money is, I can certainly see that's where the marketing and review samples are going to be, too.


TLK and separate numpad. A few southpaws at the office have requested that and I can totally see why.

For home use I prefer TKL since it frees up some desk space and doesn't sacrifice much.
It's a lot more comfortable for gaming to me; I'd always shift my full sized boards left before I played.

I am touch type-ish, sometimes I feel like a nut sometimes I don't.
As far as other layouts 100% is of course fine, I fly like the wind on a numpad while working.

Haven't had a keyboard with a layout smaller than this for home use, maybe one weird cherry board from a POS years back.
I will say that I have found smaller layouts on some laptops / netbooks (lol rip) uncomfortable but that's not exactly apples to apples.

 

[bonehead123]

ok, so tabascosauz fixed the poll options for us, but had to remove the previous votes to make it work, so everyone, please, if you don't mind, place your votes again so everyone can see the numbers

TIA !

 

[neatfeatguy]

Full keyboard ever since I can remember. I officially used the MS Natural Keyboard Elite when I was about 23 years old.

I had to dog/house sit for the old folks and I couldn't be at my place to use my computer to play Freelancer that had just come out. Thankfully my mom's computer could play it, but she had this (above) keyboard and it bothered the hell out of me for a few days. Eventually I got used to it and my mom purchased one for me for Christmas that year and it's the keyboard that I've been using ever since.

So, 20 years on this keyboard (not the same one, sadly - it got damaged during a move). Got a black one I use at home and a white (now slightly yellowish) colored one I use at work. I have a spare one at home, just in case.

 

[sam_86314]

Switched from 100% (Logitech G610) to 96% (Glorious GMMK 2). I love how much more space I have for using my mouse.

I prefer 96% over TKL because I like having a numpad. I'd love to have a 96% keyboard at work (what I do pretty much requires a numpad).

 

[claes]

As in the incursion of a larger keyboard into your mousing area, or because you don't want to ever move your hands from the home row, no exceptions?

Both The mouse space is the real selling point for me, but after some practice it’s more efficient for me to hit a macro than reach for the home or volume keys

Do you have a larger keyboard you plug in for the minority of games, or do you just compromise with combos?

Tbh I don’t really game anymore, so someone else may speak to this better than I can. I just rely on layers/macros for most things and have a configurable numpad for rare occasions

Ah, sounds like you don't change between different layouts daily. Is that a correct assumption?

Yeah definitely not. I might rotate boards every few months to spice things up but it always takes some time for me to adjust, even if I had used a keyboard for years prior. Typically not more than a couple of days, maybe a week for something new, but I’m more concerned with getting stuff done than the novelty of changing boards.

 

[Todestrieb]

Voted 100% full size there. I do have enough space at home, and I absolutely hate using the number keys above QWERTY for any extended period of time (by that I mean >4digits). Oh, and I prefer playing console emulator stuff on the numpad as long as digital input is sufficient.

At work there are cases that I would like the numpad to be under my left hand (not very often, but frequent enough), so I use a TKL + a cheapo standalone numpad.

 

[tabascosauz]

Voted 100% full size there. I do have enough space at home, and I absolutely hate using the number keys above QWERTY for any extended period of time (by that I mean >4digits). Oh, and I prefer playing console emulator stuff on the numpad as long as digital input is sufficient.

At work there are cases that I would like the numpad to be under my left hand (not very often, but frequent enough), so I use a TKL + a cheapo standalone numpad.

There's always southpaw. (not my picture)

 

[Space Lynx]

I really can't give an answer. I own four different size mech keyboards and I alternate between each of them. At the moment I have 65% cherry silver board with pudding keycaps that I love. I have the Anne Pro 2 which I believe is 40% and enjoy that too. I also have full size that i like, but i don't rotate them in as much anymore as i don't have any need for numpad

 

[Todestrieb]

southpaw

That's a new word for me...
But most of the time I would still want numpad on my right side, hence the setup.

 

[Mussels]

TKL all the way. I don't get how people think it's comfortable to bend their elbows like they're a praying mantis to game.
I'm 6'1 and wide shouldered, so i can't understand how smaller people manage it.


My arms/elbows are straight and line up with my mouse and keyboard when using WASD.. Fullsize keyboards don't allow this.


I couldn't MS paint this well - but either your arms have to be on an angle for WASD or the mouse (or both for smaller people), and that results in people gaming with their mouse offset to the screen. Any time i've seen people do this (LAN parties especially) they were usually amongst the worst players there.

Snipped from youtube for a side-by-side of all sizes to show what I mean - one or both arms have to move further and further out, meaning you can't use both devices straight on. Theres your RSI and pain issues (which i suffer from rather severely due to damaged nerves in my wrists, TKL and wrist rests solved it completely)


If you *need* a numpad, get one on the left side or a wireless/seperate one.
Work PC's don't matter since you aren't using WASD and the mouse at the same time, you tend to use the keyboard exclusively for longer periods with both hands.

 

[caroline!]

Full size tho no windows or menu keys, pretty much unused keys anyway so I'm not missing out on anything.

Model M my beloved. I had the F 122 key before but the extra keys were useless, I know they're treated as collector items in first world countries but for me they're just old keyboards that look nice and are higher quality than the membrane crap that's sold in my country so why not use them?

The connector has certainly seen better days, I ended up tucking part of the cable under the keyboard so it doesn't comes off but it's not a big deal, the thing hardly moves being so heavy, which is one of the things I like about it.

 

[A Computer Guy]

I'll go for full size. Without the numpad my right hand will need to do something else and I'm afraid of what that might lead too... ahem... like excess memeing or something.

 

[claes]

I have the Anne Pro 2 which I believe is 40%

That’s 60%, a great keyboard though

 

[silentbogo]

I started this poll because I wanted to gauge the accuracy of a statement made in another thread: "most users don't want/need anything bigger than a TKL"

More like "most users don't need anything smaller than TKL".
But if you shift the target demographics from TPU to "average non-enthusiast joe", you might see TKL being the winner.... because... laptops and tablets.
To be more specific - 15" lappies started going out of style some time ago, and with them the last convenient 100% option "on-the-go" lost its appeal. Can't find specifically worldwide stats, but from limited info on screen size market share and from the changes I've seen in my workshop I can tell for sure that I get more and more 14" lappies and smaller comparing to, let's say 15.6" and 17". This basically happened slowly and quietly over the past 5 or so years.

there's only this piece of questionable stats which agrees with my highly speculative claims, but you get the gist of it.

India: number of new laptops launched by screen size 2020| Statista

In 2020, the most popular screen size of newly launched laptops in India was 15.6 inches.

www.statista.com

I personally switched to TKL about 10 years ago. At first it was a necessity due to desk space concerns, and now it's a habit. While numpad is good for number crunching in Excel, I found it more convenient to write text and numbers without lifting or moving my hands.

 

[Eskimonster]

100% becorse i have the space.

 

[Chomiq]

I voted 100% but deep inside I'd love to have a battleship.

 

[Vayra86]

Check chyrosran22
He has some larger keyboards, to many to list but here's one, but try not be shocked at the price tags.

I get a strong Knight Rider vibe from that Kb lol. This is just begging for a Kitt voice.

Don't get me wrong, for work I will accept nothing less than a 100% layout. Hell, in the London office I have an old Microsoft Natural that's just about ready for its 5th or 6th trip through the dishwasher. That's like a 110% layout that takes up 150% of the desk space!

For gaming, I don't care about the layout or size as long as the left half of the keyboard is a standard layout - and that includes F1 to F8 as those are common default keybinds for games.

The thing is, I want a standard layout for anything more than putting in a website address and bashing out a quick message.

TKL is only a 30-40mm wider than the most compact 60% layouts available, so I'm not really sure what the USP is for the audience of sub-TKL layouts, other than being different for the sake of being different among a small niche crowd of keyboard enthusiasts. Maybe I'm getting old, but are they trying to make a statement by having a minimalist tiny keyboard - to hell with the consequences? I personally cannot stand having to push a combination of keys to register a single keypress, and it's even stupider when one of those alternate function keys is part of a common mutli-key function. CTRL+ALT+INSERT is hard if ALT+Fn does something other than ALT, but INSERT requires you to hold down the Fn key. When you have to call up the on-screen keyboard to type something because your typing device can't do it, you know it's dumb AF and the keyboard industry has (hopefully) reached peak stupid at that point.

Hey man, we have PC's encased in nearly full glass fishtanks now, we're water cooling a midrange videocard, and we're brute forcing our lighting both on screen and inside the PC case Peak stupid is the norm these days!

I mean how else can all those unique individuals define themselves with the same range of products, after all your PC is definitely an extension of yourself, gotta express that identity