Mantle API presentation by AMD, DICE and Oxide - AMD Summit 2013

[HD64G]

Show me a CPU Intensive program where a 4C i7 performs only 50% faster than a 4C APU. Every benchmark I see pegs it at at least 100% faster.

A game engine's demo uses iGPUs too. Not so difficult to see the difference here as AMD's iGPU is much better than i7's.

 

[Recus]

I'm not being funny, what do you mean?

What exactly you don't understand? You think all Mantle stuff will be showed on iGPU?

 

[Mathragh]

What exactly you don't understand? You think all Mantle stuff will be showed on iGPU?

It would appear that you don't understand something, or are maybe trolling.

Mantle isn't specific to any CPU vendor or GPU, the only thing it (currently) needs, is GCN hardware, because thats currently the only architecture with support. So the full range from the slowest(kaveri) APU till the power guzzling R9 290X will support mantle, in combination with any CPU.

 

[TheMailMan78]

It would appear that you don't understand something, or are maybe trolling.

Mantle isn't specific to any CPU vendor or GPU, the only thing it (currently) needs, is GCN hardware, because thats currently the only architecture with support. So the full range from the slowest(kaveri) APU till the power guzzling R9 290X will support mantle, in combination with any CPU.

This. So basically 1% of the market will be able to take advantage of Mantle assuming Intel and NVIDIA stand aside and let AMD run the show. Seems legit!

I can only describe this thread in meme....

 

[Chetkigaming]

Mantle is a fake.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Mantle is a fake.

Its not "fake". Its just CODING TO THE METAL BABY!

 

[Mathragh]

This. So basically 1% of the market will be able to take advantage of Mantle assuming Intel and NVIDIA stand aside and let AMD run the show. Seems legit!

I can only describe this thread in meme....

Dude lol, what do you expect. Something is finally being done about the wall developers are running into when making games people like us love to play. Its kind of silly to post childish gifs for reactions totally belonging in this thread.

The simple fact of the matter is, this tech is great, long overdue, and with this demo finally real. The ONLY reason for not being enthousiastic about it now, is because you either don't have the hardware, or simply hate progress.

Stop being so lame lol

 

[the54thvoid]

What exactly you don't understand? You think all Mantle stuff will be showed on iGPU?

I didn't understand your ref to the 290X and what relevance the charts had. Genuinely, not being obstinate or rude. I don't know if the AMD slides use dGPU's or just APU's.

It would appear that you don't understand something, or are maybe trolling.

Mantle isn't specific to any CPU vendor or GPU, the only thing it (currently) needs, is GCN hardware, because thats currently the only architecture with support. So the full range from the slowest(kaveri) APU till the power guzzling R9 290X will support mantle, in combination with any CPU.

That makes my head hurt. If it works with any CPU and it makes the CPU work more optimally then what relevance is the GPU? Or, is it the case that it optimises the load that would normally be sent to the CPU and instead sees the GCN architecture and offloads all that work to the GPU instead. I really don't know how it works if it works on any CPU and makes better use of it. To me it makes it seem counter intuitive.

What does Mantle do first? Is it driver based -> see's GCN core, optimises load to all GCN cores to alleviate stress on CPU? Or is it coded to make better use of a (neutral) CPU, therefore allowing the GPU to flex it's muscles with less restriction?

Ruski seems to be the most informed and passionate - would appreciate a technical answer from him.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Dude lol, what do you expect. Something is finally being done about the wall developers are running into when making games people like us love to play. Its kind of silly to post childish gifs for reactions totally belonging in this thread.

The simple fact of the matter is, this tech is great, long overdue, and with this demo finally real. The ONLY reason for not being enthousiastic about it now, is because you either don't have the hardware, or simply hate progress.

Stop being so lame lol

Its not being lame. Its just the sad fact this is another API with high expectations that the smallest player in the game is trying to push. GLIDE, OpenGL all of these API have not been adopted because MS, Intel and NVIDIA will not allow them too. AMD is betting their dominance in the console market will make THIS TIME different AND we all know how AMD never skews numbers.........its a gamble and its pixie dust. Black magic meets black jack is the only way to describe Mantle. HIT ME AGAIN MAC!

Ill wait for a W1zz review before I drink the kool aid.

 

[the54thvoid]

There is also a secondary issue with Mantle.

It's AMD centric for now, which means AMD need to get in at the start. This means from the get go the game will be coded in favour of AMD. Any Mantle released title will favour AMD (arguably) as they will have invested in it, therefore the developers will 'show' some loyalty to AMD. Look how well BF4 plays on AMD cards compared to BF3 (at 1080p the 290X is 12% behind the 780Ti in BF3. In BF4 the difference is 6%.). Just a thought.

FTR this is just the same as NV buying in dev support for Physx. Either way, first GPU team to a 'AAA' title get's the optimisations.

 

[TheMailMan78]

There is also a secondary issue with Mantle.

It's AMD centric for now, which means AMD need to get in at the start. This means from the get go the game will be coded in favour of AMD. Any Mantle released title will favour AMD (arguably) as they will have invested in it, therefore the developers will 'show' some loyalty to AMD. Look how well BF4 plays on AMD cards compared to BF3 (at 1080p the 290X is 12% behind the 780Ti in BF3. In BF4 the difference is 6%.). Just a thought.

FTR this is just the same as NV buying in dev support for Physx. Either way, first GPU team to a 'AAA' title get's the optimisations.

Hence my comment on the console gamble.

 

[BiggieShady]

I really don't know how it works if it works on any CPU and makes better use of it. To me it makes it seem counter intuitive.

It's all about how effectively multi-threaded application uses available CPU cores to feed the GPU faster. Also Mantle is not only removing directx out of the picture but also the driver because there is no driver thread. Drivers sits in memory and does nothing while mantle game is running. That's why devs say they have written their custom mantle driver using the AMD Mantle SDK, rather than saying they added the mantle specific code to their game engine. These slides confirm that :

 

[the54thvoid]

It's all about how effectively multi-threaded application uses available CPU cores to feed the GPU faster. Also Mantle is not only removing directx out of the picture but also the driver because there is no driver thread. Drivers sits in memory and does nothing while mantle game is running. That's why devs say they have written their custom mantle driver using the AMD Mantle SDK, rather than saying they added the mantle specific code to their game engine. These slides confirm that :

I give you thanks but I'm still a bit 'duh.....'

 

[Mathragh]

I give you thanks but I'm still a bit 'duh.....'

In essence, it comes down to two things: One, you remove the need for the driver thread, which normally is a huge performance drain. This is because for every draw call the game engine does, The driver has to convert these calls to the machine language which GPU's can understand. As you can imagine, the more complex the scene, and the quicker a GPU can process these commands, the more commands need to be generated. This is where the main bottleneck is today I believe, with GPU's scaling way better than CPU's, and since I believe the driver thread cannot(or atleast is not) properly multithreaded.
Two: the rest of the "rendering" work can be parallelized way better and more efficient, because of how mantle lets the game communicate with the rest of your PC.


@ TMM, I know man, its just a gamble, and nothing is certain. However, I do still think this is different compared to glide and OpenGL, in that it takes the best from both worlds. But, like I end half of my posts in this thread, we'll have to wait and see anyway.

I do know however that I'd much rather be enthousiastic about this tech than about yet another proprietary standard by a semi-monopolist, or the demise of another player in the hardware market.

 

[xkche]

Just think for a moment that MANTLE works very well (40-45% improve).

Many developers join and more games are supported.

Later NVIDIA join and take advantage of MANTLE.

Who win?

 

[HD64G]

Exactly! We all who will buy the newer GPU (not the more expensive ones-speaking for myself) and will enjoy games with features unable to have till Mantle. That's why I want to watch it succeeding. Because I am sure about the potential.

Just imagine in BF4 and other Mantle optimised games when you bought 7870 and now it will run as if you bought 290. Or having 7770 and running BF4 like with a 7870. Isn't it a win-win for customers?

 

[BiggieShady]

The driver has to convert these calls to the machine language which GPU's can understand. As you can imagine, the more complex the scene, and the quicker a GPU can process these commands, the more commands need to be generated. This is where the main bottleneck is today I believe, with GPU's scaling way better than CPU's

Not quite, kinda missing the point here, there is nothing remotely complex about generating draw calls on the cpu - quite the opposite. One draw call is extremely simple for CPU. The problem arises if each and every one of those simple operations carry some latency or overhead (like with directx/opengl vs driver inter-process communication - there are all kinds of overheads) ... anyways those latencies add up real quick and eat up at each frame time. I would guess that Mantle is merging/simplifying api+driver (no backward compatibility woes) into single DLL that runs with game in the same process space so multithreading can be done optimally.

 

[RoutedScripter]

I don't do this often nor do I proclaim anything but it's just what i've been looking and seeing and even if it's probably not the latter, it just feels like it nontheless

And it's been fine for like ... when I still wasn't quite sure of myself last year, still kind of reserved and playing it safe, I made bold statements early on as I was sure of a bigger than expected speedup, but ofcourse not something that is fixed, it'll keep getting improved, but the whole PR conspiracy theory, it's a pile of trash, unless they played a giant hoax for some stupid reason.

https://twitter.com/stewox1/status/420705811082395648

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2344633&page=165#4123

I was reading that for quite some time, that guy is just absolutely out of his mind, even if AMD doesn't have detailed benchmars and accurate "average FPS" it's not going to change much, the API is still low level, we still know and saw the starswarm demo.

Are they going to be showing any BF4 w/Mantle at CES this week? I though I heard something about it. I'm also curious to see how it's coming along with Star Citizen. I left a couple questions for the devs about it... It might be too early for an answer though.

So will mantle install like directx does or with the GFX drivers? I still love these slides comparing a I7 IGP to a APU since the I7 was DEF made for GFX performance

I think i heard on some amd-twitter or some dev that it's not going to be inside the catalyst, it'll be inside the eninge like a DLL or something, i don't know, the only thing AMD will release is the mantle driver i believe, if the support is not integrated into the display driver or what, it might just take an update and then won't be needing separate updates thereafter, it's just like 4 or more scenarios and look I don't know which one are they going to pick how it's delivered.

 

[xenocide]

I think i heard on some amd-twitter or some dev that it's not going to be inside the catalyst, it'll be inside the eninge like a DLL or something, i don't know, the only thing AMD will release is the mantle driver i believe, if the support is not integrated into the display driver or what, it might just take an update and then won't be needing separate updates thereafter, it's just like 4 or more scenarios and look I don't know which one are they going to pick how it's delivered.

It will be programmed into the Game Engine, and when you install the game it will install a Mantle DLL that the engine uses to communicate with the drivers. At least that's the most efficient way they could do it.

 

[kn00tcn]

mantle mantle mantle mantle

hey wait, in that bf4 video, isnt that the new mac pro at the end?

 

[TheHunter]

Just think for a moment that MANTLE works very well (40-45% improve).

Many developers join and more games are supported.

Later NVIDIA join and take advantage of MANTLE.

Who win?

Us gamers.


In perfect scenario it would be like so

MS should include it in next OS aka win9 and Mantle should be adopted by all gpu makers and then we will live a perfect gaming world ;D



And such comments as mantle is a fake bs and what not are just plain sad and stupid... Wth are you a gamer or not??? Don't you want better GFX, better performance, for f sake. And nvidia needs a proper mantle driver that's all.

Some fanboys make me sick, they're like plague.

 

[xkche]

Exactly! We all who will buy the newer GPU (not the more expensive ones-speaking for myself) and will enjoy games with features unable to have till Mantle. That's why I want to watch it succeeding. Because I am sure about the potential.

Just imagine in BF4 and other Mantle optimised games when you bought 7870 and now it will run as if you bought 290. Or having 7770 and running BF4 like with a 7870. Isn't it a win-win for customers?

And 4K still hard on a 290, mantle can help running 4K smoothly.

7870-7970 (R9 270X - R9 280) playing with Eyefinity at 60FPS withou problems (on high).

*.*

 

[Recus]

It would appear that you don't understand something, or are maybe trolling.

Mantle isn't specific to any CPU vendor or GPU, the only thing it (currently) needs, is GCN hardware, because thats currently the only architecture with support. So the full range from the slowest(kaveri) APU till the power guzzling R9 290X will support mantle, in combination with any CPU.

Where I said something about support?

I didn't understand your ref to the 290X and what relevance the charts had. Genuinely, not being obstinate or rude. I don't know if the AMD slides use dGPU's or just APU's.

The Battlefield 4 Mantle demonstration ran on a system with AMD A10 Kaveri processor and AMD Radeon GPU R9 290x Hawaii.

As for charts, point is you don't need Mantle to boost APU.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2344633&page=168

 

[RoutedScripter]

Someone made this hehe:

I think it's justified, mantle is not a small thing.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Someone made this hehe:

I think it's justified, mantle is not a small thing.

I'm not sure you are serious anymore.