Microsoft Investigated Again in Europe

[xfire]

Yahoo mesenger is present in Linux. So linux has that ie file right. Why do you think I.E is used by the majority?
Conduct a poll to all the people using internet ask them what is a browser, most won't know. Now ask them what Internet Explorer is. You get my point. Another case of integration of I.E. Of course M$ can put whatever browser they wan't but I.E's popularity is solely integrationof it windows. Just wait till all the pirated xp/vista are curbed. Windows users will reduce in half and other O.S'es will gain popularity. Linux is already growing in popularity.

 

[btarunr]

The Linux Y! messenger has NO interactive web content...thanks to not having the ieframe integration..Do you get the whole Yahoo Messenger Insider thing? Nope...compare the quality and features of the Linux and Windows variants of ymsngr

 

[xfire]

you beat me to it. Hey but your just hitting youself. You are doing just what opera is complaining of. Every one uses I.E just because its integrated and now dont give that opera sucks. Its the one I use all the time. Agreed that it isn't perfect and buggy but so is windows.
They are not targeting Mac osx because its less used.
So tell me do you use the yahoo insider at all. For me thats just junk.

 

[btarunr]

I don't but 80% of the features that the Windows variant of Y! msgr has is lacking in the Linux variant and they're all ieframe dependent.

 

[xfire]

but how much of that 80% is used by most users. Is it the same for mac then?

 

[evil bill]

To me, your argument fails on just a few points: this wouldn't be like Ford using a Sony stereo -- this would be like Ford using a Ford stereo, and then hardwiring it in as part of the car to where you couldn't even remove it and even if you tried, it would probably break the car. Please tell me how a consumer is supposed to use viable alternatives in that situation..

to be fair, that is the case with quite a lot of car stereos these days - they are custom built to fit the dashboard of specific models and changing would be a major task. Yet, I am unaware of a huge consumer or car stereo producer backlash against such practices....as with IE, this is probably because for the majority of users it works well enough, but if they are enthusiastic enough to want to change it they will find out how and do it.

 

[Dangle]

It's not Microsoft's fault that people don't want to use Opera. I remember when Europeans used to talk shat to us Americans about how you can sue anybody for anything in this country... And now look at this lame shiite that's happening in Europe...

What is it a crime to include software with your OS? Mac comes with iPhoto, Safari, Garage Band. Please someone tell me that Mac is breaking the law.

 

[Wile E]

you beat me to it. Hey but your just hitting youself. You are doing just what opera is complaining of. Every one uses I.E just because its integrated

So what? It works, and that's all consumers are concerned with. If the EC was only concerned with consumers, this case wouldn't be happening.

They are not targeting Mac osx because its less used.

What does market share have to do with whether or not it's right? That's called a double standard. If MS is wrong (which I don't believe they are), then Apple and Linux are wrong as well.

So tell me do you use the yahoo insider at all. For me thats just junk.

You may not, but some people do. Don't confuse yourself for the majority.

 

[Darkrealms]

First off thank all of you who are standing for common sense.

Microsoft has the right to bundle what it wants.
Microsoft does NOT have the right to intentionally stop other software from working.
Those two statements sum up what this case should be about. But its NOT about this. Opera is a whiney little company and not very high on the product popularity list.

If this case is really about operating systems not being allowed to bundle then I'd like to see every operating system on the floor here. However they aren't. Common sense: people want easy, bundling is easy. Smart people want the best product, as I recall FireFox is doing well. I've also mentioned before there is a little company called Intuit that makes some financial software that blew every attempt by Microsoft out of the water. I don't even see Microsoft Money anymore. If Opera wants market share then they need to make a good product.

 

[imperialreign]

MS has the right to bundle their software . . . we've already been over this here in the US years ago (IIRC, WIN 98 or WIN ME was the current OS);

If anyone remembers, MS was taken to court stating that their integration of IE into WIN goes aganist anti trust laws and that it was an illegal practice. IIRC, the judge overseeing the case ordered that IE would have to be seperated from WIN, and that MS would have to offer a version of WIN without IE, and a version with - so that way the customer can decide if they want IE or not . . .

. . . MS appealed the case, it went to a higher judge, and the original ruling was overturned . . .




. . . and here we are, repeating history, just with a different plantiff, and on a different continent. :shadedshu Knowing MS, if they for some ungodly reason lose this case and have to remove IE from their european OS, I'm sure a few more hundred lines of code will work their way in that will cause a certain specific upstart browser <cough>*opera*<cough> to run extremelly poor, or near about not at all.

 

[[I.R.A]_FBi]

It's not Microsoft's fault that people don't want to use Opera. I remember when Europeans used to talk shat to us Americans about how you can sue anybody for anything in this country... And now look at this lame shiite that's happening in Europe...

What is it a crime to include software with your OS? Mac comes with iPhoto, Safari, Garage Band. Please someone tell me that Mac is breaking the law.

you guys take the f**king from the wrong ppl ...

 

[Black Hades]

@ btarunr Okay, I've read about 6 posts where you constantly: "Opera sucks sucks and then some more!". However you don’t seem to give any specific details on that...

How about the fact that it was and still IS the safest browser around, cannot be hijacked, and does not have any memory leaks? However Opera is not tolerant with badly coded internet content, (and many web developers ignore Opera) It is somewhat the ugly stepsister of Firefox as it isn’t all that flexible plugin wise. However it WAS the first browser to suport tabbed browsing (nobody seems to mention that) , was the first to integrate popup blocking (that works better than 90% 3rd party software doing same thing) and that it IS undeniably the fastest browser around. Also from the developer's pov Opera was the first browsers to support efficient Cascading Style Sheets (CSS), now a major building block of web design *.

Don’t take my word for it; I think Secunia has more than enough authority on the matter. Compare the security statistics for IE, FF and Opera in the last few years. You’ll see that Opera had in 4 years less security vulnerabilities than either IE or FF currently have this very second.

Secunia reports for 2007:

Opera 9.x: http://secunia.com/product/10615/?task=statistics_2007

Firefox 2.x: http://secunia.com/product/12434/?task=statistics_2007

IExplorer 7.x: http://secunia.com/product/12366/?task=statistics_2007

I do however agree that this is a bad move for Opera Software to complain, as Microsoft is allowed to bundle whatever it damn pleases. But not cooperating with the software industry in general should not be tolerated. It's kind of a gray area situation here I'm afraid.

*CSS dev info taken from here : http://meyerweb.com/eric/articles/webrev/199906.html

 

[btarunr]

Irrespective of that Opera sucks. It sucks for its UI, its incompatibility with several standards, despite the Acid2 test pass it renders most common websites like crap. Don't advertise Opera here, I've had enough of using it and I talk on the basis of using it for over an year. As far as security goes, as long as you have a good firewall, anti-spy, anti-vir software (and don't get into free p0rn, warez sites) the difference in security features hardly matters, you have to be a concious browser first and later blame the web-browser for lack of security. As far as this case goes, read Wile E 's previous post. He pretty-much summed up what I was going to type here.

 

[xfire]

I am with opera but I feel the reason it isn't hacked is because it is used less.
@btarunr and all those who say opera sucks- Don't use a software for an hour or so and say it sucks. You've given windows a lifetime and there are still some components to understand. Give some time to understand the features of the browser.
To Wil E-Most of those 80% features will be found on their website too.
and to whom so ever it may concern- I am not justifying opera's law suit here but I am saying I.E shouldn't be integrated to such a level where it cannot be uninstalled.

 

[btarunr]

^Makes no sense, really. Don't you read posts properly? Didn't I mention I used Opera for an year now? Right-click on the India flag in my sig > properties, view its location. With lot of experience using it, I declare Opera to suck which it does because comparing Opera to Firefox (if not IE) the differences are clear to you. Windows cannot function without IE. The Windows explorer that shows you thumbnails, previews and pretty graphics to display files and folders uses IE to render the folder display that's in the hidden "folder.htt" (hypertext template) file. Uninstalling IE and your folders will display the way it used to in Windows 95 (before PLUS). lol.

 

[xfire]

I was typing when you posted it.
You used opera for a year and all the time you were using it you were thinking it sucks.
When did you use opera for a year? When it was under development. Have you used speed dial? Do you know opera can open only I.E pages by telling it to mask itself as I.E. Do you know that if you drag a tab and put it in the toolbar it will save a link with that thumbnail on that. Have you tried any of the skins opera has.Opera has open in new tab/open in background tab- The first mean a new tab will open and it will take you to that tab the second one means it will open the tab but the current tab in which your browsing will remain selected.

 

[btarunr]

Still makes no sense. I've used Opera for an year, switched back to IE7 and realised how much I missed IE. Okay if you're into specifics, I uninstalled Opera last month. Those features still don't account to Opera's merit considering I can't use Leechget download manager, my broadband router's config page doesn't run and even my bank's account page. Basic things Opera doesn't let me do, why should I bother about speed-dial or whatever?

 

[xfire]

^^ that doesn't bother me. You need to have an open mind for such stuff. Like I said you have used it for a year but haven't learned most of its functions.

 

[btarunr]

Bullshit. I've learned all its features, what's the use of those features if I can't check my savings-bank account using it? The same which I can using Firefox, IE and Safari (win32)?

 

[xfire]

yea. Bullshit.
Do this.
Install opera
then go to tools->preferences
Click manage site preferences
Click on add to add a site.
then under network tab there is an option called browser identification. Use this.


Oh and do you know about mouse gestures.
Hold the right mouse button and
Move down-opens new window
Move up and down-reload(like a shotgun)
Move up,then right-restore or maximise window
make L shape-close window
down and left-minimise window
down+up-duplicate window.

Speed dial is a superb feature which lets you select 9 web pages. Now when you open opera those 9 pages are presented in front of you in the form of a thumbnail.
Also ctrl+1-9 are assigned shortcuts for the selected pages. Even if your browsing another page these shortcuts can be used directly.


and I can blindly close a web page or opera, Why? When I close a tab its sent to thrash. 2 click an the page is back. Close opera and open it again the webpages wich were open the previous time are still open.

If you still don't get it, I.E is more user friendly to developers than to the users. Hence the majority.

 

[Irish_PXzyan]

heh I like Opera ..ive bene using it for months now!

 

[btarunr]

yea. Bullshit.
Do this.
Install opera
then go to tools->preferences
Click manage site preferences
Click on add to add a site.
then under network tab there is an option called browser identification. Use this.


Oh and do you know about mouse gestures.
Hold the right mouse button and
Move down-opens new window
Move up and down-reload(like a shotgun)
Move up,then right-restore or maximise window
make L shape-close window
down and left-minimise window
down+up-duplicate window.

Speed dial is a superb feature which lets you select 9 web pages. Now when you open opera those 9 pages are presented in front of you in the form of a thumbnail.
Also ctrl+1-9 are assigned shortcuts for the selected pages. Even if your browsing another page these shortcuts can be used directly.


and I can blindly close a web page or opera, Why? When I close a tab its sent to thrash. 2 click an the page is back. Close opera and open it again the webpages wich were open the previous time are still open.

If you still don't get it, I.E is more user friendly to developers than to the users. Hence the majority.

tried, didn't work. So much advertising in vain .

 

[xfire]

So none of the above features worked. Well then opera hates you. Live with I.E and enjoy advanced browsing.
Edit- so which page doesn't work for you(give the URL)

 

[Wile E]

I was typing when you posted it.
You used opera for a year and all the time you were using it you were thinking it sucks.
When did you use opera for a year? When it was under development. Have you used speed dial? Do you know opera can open only I.E pages by telling it to mask itself as I.E. Do you know that if you drag a tab and put it in the toolbar it will save a link with that thumbnail on that. Have you tried any of the skins opera has.Opera has open in new tab/open in background tab- The first mean a new tab will open and it will take you to that tab the second one means it will open the tab but the current tab in which your browsing will remain selected.

Spoofing the string doesn't make IE only features magically work. Some pages still require ActiveX, and if ActiveX works in Opera, that means it's relying on the IE engine to do it. Meaning you still need IE present for it to work.

 

[btarunr]

So none of the above features worked. Well then opera hates you. Live with I.E and enjoy advanced browsing.
Edit- so which page doesn't work for you(give the URL)

It's HSBC's personal banking site. No point giving you the url, you need to sign-in after which it shows a message box telling "Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.5 or above is required". In Firefox, you can use the IEtabs extension which again requires ieframes.