NASA Achieves milestone Solid State Battery

[Wirko]

Good question on the cold, there was a mini scandal with the nest doorbells over that - they wouldnt charge below certain temperatures and google said to take them indoors to charge them and people got mad it wasnt documented
To be fair, theres not many devices that CAN charge at -20c yet, so good question on the SS batteries and their hopefully better temperature range

Lithium-based batteries must not be charged below 0°C. If cold charging is required, they must have internal heating systems. I don't know if such heating in e-cars is a common thing.

Discharging below zero is not a problem.

 

[ratirt]

They still have to solve the charging problem. Waiting at a station is a huge inconvenience, and a lot of people (myself included) can't charge at home.

If you have to wait in a charging station to charge the car. If you, on the other hand, have an enough capacity of the battery, you get from one point to the other without the need to charge on your way. That is the goal. Fast chargers are not the solution. Fast charge always depletes the battery faster in some degree. I live in Norway at the moment, and I can tell you, fast charge is not going to work. You can charge the car in a car station instead of home. My point is no charging during the trip.

 

[AusWolf]

If you have to wait in a charging station to charge the car. If you, on the other hand, have an enough capacity of the battery, you get from one point to the other without the need to charge on your way. That is the goal. Fast chargers are not the solution. Fast charge always depletes the battery faster in some degree. I live in Norway at the moment, and I can tell you, fast charge is not going to work. You can charge the car in a car station instead of home. My point is no charging during the trip.

Exactly. I know it's not the same, but I fast charged my Samsung S6, and its battery died up to the point of puffing up in about 3 years. I'd rather not wait for slow charging at a station, either. An entirely different solution is needed.

 

[lemonadesoda]

If you can get a high density battery in a standardised format, then perhaps the auto industry can create a replaceable battery block that you can swap out just like gas (propane/butane) canisters. That will solve a big issue with wanting to travel long distances. And people who cannot charge at home. Even grocery/hardware stores could sell them not just gas stations.

For the "charge double the capacity win just ten minutes" I have a fear of the current required to do that and the possible risks associated with it. Not realistic at home, and if there were charging stations that could do that, then the induced magnetic fields would attract flying saucers. lol.

 

[Mussels]

They still have to solve the charging problem. Waiting at a station is a huge inconvenience, and a lot of people (myself included) can't charge at home.

LifePo4 was big for that exact reason, with much much faster discharge rates, as well as lower weight per capacity- the catch was the steel plates needed for fire safety added more weight back
iirc it's something like 0.3c at best for SLA type batteries and a flat 1.0c for lifepo4 (so lifepo4 can charge/discharge at 3x the rate with the same capacity)
if they can ditch the steel plates, they could fit a lot more battery in the same sized area, hopefully keeping the faster rates and smaller size overall




Lithiums biggest weakness is the cells are stuck at roughly 3.6v (early lithium batteries) to 3.7v per cell (Current lithiums) with a boost of 4.2v peak, fully charged. They can't do that for long term without damage, but need it sometimes to balance multiple cells - it's why they got chosen for phones since USB at 5v can easily charge one those cells with voltage to spare, even if they droop under load



This is why 9v and 12v quick charge methods exist because you can slap 2x or 3x lithium cells in parallel for more ah at the same voltage, and then seperate your 9v charger into 2x 4.5v and charge two cells seperately (same with 12v into 3x 4.0v) - this is also why the quick charge methods drop off as the battery % rises
Equalising cells to keep the load even between them all is how you keep them alive without one being overcharged and becoming a spicy pillow, and this trick helped them achieve that more easily - it gave you faster charging, and let them seperate the charging between the cells (if they used multiple)



You can't easily make them bigger or smaller, you can only add more cells of a fairly standard size - which becomes awkward when your voltages have to be a multiple of 3.6v,forcing buck converters to be needed for a lot of designs - or devices to just be designed around their optimum voltages (phones!)
Phones make it easy with being made for those voltages, because they can keep things in the happy range and avoid the highest charging rates, and power off long before they approach the 'danger' levels - a phones 0% reading may well be 30% of the battery, not the 20% they degrade at


This is why we dont see AA/AAA lithium batteries, since they have to run at 3.6-3.7v and fit a buck converter to drop to the expected 1.5v which takes up space, lowering the capacity

 

[lexluthermiester]

NASA’s Solid-State Battery Research Exceeds Initial Goals, Draws Interest - NASA

NASA researchers are making progress with developing an innovative battery pack that is lighter, safer, and performs better than batteries commonly used in

www.nasa.gov

View attachment 264681

Pretty incredible stuff.

Can't wait for this tech in phones and electronics. But will be revolutionary everywhere.

Lithium Ion is considered "State-of-the-art"?!? Says who? I call BS. The only reason we're still using Lithium batteries is because we haven't focused enough research on replacements. Lithium is an outdated chemistry that we needed to replace 15 years ago.

 

[Wirko]

That they can operate damaged is simply remarkable. It could even save lives. Nice!

That's very much questionable. If such a battery is damaged and the damage causes a short circuit, and if the battery is capable of sourcing a large current (as it should be), it will inevitably heat up a lot. Sooner or later it (or whatever is near) will catch fire. We'd need to know what effect overheating has on other cells nearby. A single, sheet-shaped cell in a laboratory may not reach a high temperature because it's a good heatsink but usable batteries will be massive, with many sheets stacked, in shapes that fill the available space.

But I agree that any danger of fast-spreading, non-extinguishable fire seems to be far lower than in Li-ion.

 

[AusWolf]

This is why we dont see AA/AAA lithium batteries, since they have to run at 3.6-3.7v and fit a buck converter to drop to the expected 1.5v which takes up space, lowering the capacity

They still exist, though (link).

 

[Bomby569]

If you can get a high density battery in a standardised format, then perhaps the auto industry can create a replaceable battery block that you can swap out just like gas (propane/butane) canisters. That will solve a big issue with wanting to travel long distances. And people who cannot charge at home. Even grocery/hardware stores could sell them not just gas stations.

For the "charge double the capacity win just ten minutes" I have a fear of the current required to do that and the possible risks associated with it. Not realistic at home, and if there were charging stations that could do that, then the induced magnetic fields would attract flying saucers. lol.

call me a cynical but seeing the widespread anti consumer tactics all companies form every sector are employing, including the auto sector, i doubt they would just let you swap a battery like that even if it was possible technically.
Would probably need some proprietary BS connection that required a special software they don't share to be activated, and it could only be done in the dealer, and it would all cost you as much as just getting a new car

 

[Kapone33]

I get it, Canadians won't ask if a battery "can operate in temperatures nearly twice as hot as lithium-ion batteries" but rather "thrice as cold". Indeed many types of batteries don't work well in the cold, and I'm wondering if this solid state battery does.

I would not be worried about the Temp issue. This is NASA so they must be designing this for Space exploration and planetary systems on places like the Moon and Mars.

 

[Mussels]

Lithium Ion is considered "State-of-the-art"?!? Says who? I call BS. The only reason we're still using Lithium batteries is because we haven't focused enough research on replacements. Lithium is an outdated chemistry that we needed to replace 15 years ago.

What's superior to it then?
If LifePo4 is not start of the art lithium battery tech, then please explain what IS


And if you're going to lump *all* lithium battery technology together, you might want to not do that as there have been several revisions and improvements to the tech as the years have gone by

 

[mb194dc]

Solid state batteries are vaporware so far.

Let's see them scale one up to mass production volumes at reasonable cost and we'll talk.

Continue to think pure electric vehicles are likely a technical dead end... Hybrid hydrogen electric or synthetic fuel vehicles ultimately dominate the market.

 

[r9]

And if only doesn't cost as much as a fusion reactor to make doubling the capacity it's a big big jump.
Enough of a jump to really push forward electric cars and home solar.
The Arabs are sweating bullets

 

[dgianstefani]

Solid state batteries are vaporware so far.

Let's see them scale one up to mass production volumes at reasonable cost and we'll talk.

Continue to think pure electric vehicles are likely a technical dead end... Hybrid hydrogen electric or synthetic fuel vehicles ultimately dominate the market.

Pure electric vehicles are ideal as long as they use solid state/glass/ceramic batteries with a long lifecycle and the electricity is generated from nuclear.

In their current form they're idiotic, short range, short lifespan and typically fuelled by coal, not to mention potentially explosive.

Also, when solar roofs for EVs?

 

[1freedude]

@lemonadesoda @Bomby569
A friend of mine has an obsession with creating a universal battery pack. Since I have known him, going on twenty years now, he picks my brain about it. I am no battery pack expert, but I told him exactly what Bomby said. I want him to succeed, but the market wants, and will demand he fail.

A different acquaintance showed me a German connection called MagCode, made to safely attach/detach high power systems. Big business to say the least.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

I find it funny that there's paranoia here, akin to the "they made a vehicle that ran 300 miles on just water and the government is suppressing it to benefit the oil companies" insanity.

Why is lithium based chemistry the stuff we use now? Well, let's look at the periodic table. All current (non-solid state) batteries utilize a cathode and anode, where the breakdown of higher energy state chemical bonds to lower state bonds allows for the conversion of chemical energy into electrical. This chemical process requires some medium...and the best is an aqueous solution. It's not "old chemistry," it's the simplest expression of chemistry period. To have more energy you need to store it in some other way....which is the breakthrough of these solid state batteries.

Who, exactly, would oppose high capacity batteries? The oil companies keep drilling, because you'll still need to plug that electric car into something. They'll also need to have plenty of rubber insulation, plastic components, lubricants, etc... If you think that a Tesla uses less oil than most automobiles then you'd be sadly mistaken... What about the huge benefits to oil companies? They could readily see use for high density batteries on their oil rig platforms that remove the tendency for explosive consequences if they're pierced. It's silly to think that if we had better batteries oil would become a dead industry in any semblance of quick order.

Finally, why don't we have better chemistries and higher density batteries? This is simple. Higher densities mean higher problems if said energy is released (and usually higher price). This is why the airlines banned those stupid "hover boards." Lithium chemistries hold enough energy to create stupidly deadly situations. They have a process that closely matches the energy requirements to reverse and conduct a reaction...so the amount of energy to charge them closely matches with the energy that comes out. They're relatively cheap. This is the same reason that we have lead acid batteries inside most combustion cars...instead of the superior lithium chemistries. That is, amongst a plethora of other reasons including operating temperatures, discharge capacity, and charge/discharge cycles. Lithium is superior in some aspects, lead acid in others, and these new ones will hopefully also offer something unique...while being price competitive enough to be viable. Lord knows that when people complain about a phone they often don't even factor in the cost increase that minor increase in battery capacity would offer...let alone a whole new technology.

 

[dgianstefani]

Yeah yeah.

BOM of modern phones is typically around 1/3 or less of the sale price.

"economies of scale" regardless, they could have put working solid state batteries in every flagship three years ago and still made 50-70% profit margins, but then why would you upgrade?

The batteries are the only consumable parts left on modern electronics (besides maybe the OLED screen, but that's a five+ year issue that's been steadily improving for years), and soon to be the reason why EV's need replacing every 5-10 years. They don't have the mechanical wear/tear of ICE cars but manufacturers need to find ways to get consumers to replace their hardware every few years.

Nevertheless, companies like Tesla build huge factories to pump out inherently flawed EV batteries that have a limited usability life, and whose short range will only get ever shorter with time and temperature.

Look up the cost of non warranty battery replacements for EVs, and tell me this isn't the next cash cow for manufacturers.

What's more, since parts these days are typically serialized and coded to work with paired computers, you won't be able to do these repairs yourself.

I.e. swapping components from identical brand new iPhones or other smartphones, will lead to them becoming dysfunctional or completely non functional.

I guarantee you, when solid state/ceramic batteries come to market in volume, they will either be: ultra premium low volume in cars such as the Lucid Air, or gimped in some way to force maintenance/replacement after a set period of time, or be cost cut in capacity compared to their conventional alternatives, so the advantages are limited to safety, and small solid state cells are used in place of larger conventional arrays, rendering the increased longevity and density irrelevant due to increased load per cell.

Good engineering solutions don't make it into the final product unless they are long term profitable for the manufacturer. Nor do patents held for years typically lead to a product, because they only do so if they lead to profit, and better, longer lasting products aren't profitable. Circular economy "recycle" mentality is the latest way to encourage replacing things every 2-3 years.

EU and other governments had to mandate that car parts be available for a certain amount of years, I think seven, because manufacturers would stop selling certain parts, to force people to buy new cars, aftermarket parts wouldn't work unless you reprogrammed the ECU.

My bet is on the microcontroller for the battery failing after x number of years, and being impossible to replace by anyone other than the manufacturer, for "security" reasons. This is already the case with batteries from Apple (if you replace with a non paired, non Apple battery, your phone will lose functionality), and the rest of the industry tends to follow them.

 

[AusWolf]

Pure electric vehicles are ideal as long as they use solid state/glass/ceramic batteries with a long lifecycle and the electricity is generated from nuclear.

In their current form they're idiotic, short range, short lifespan and typically fuelled by coal, not to mention potentially explosive.

Also, when solar roofs for EVs?

Plus, we still haven't solved the problem of home charging for like 80% of the world who don't own a nice, detached family house with a drive/garage.

Edit: EVs (as of now) are a niche that owners and fans think everybody should succumb to, regardless of practicalities or financial circumstances... like iPhones.

 

[lexluthermiester]

What's superior to it then?
If LifePo4 is not start of the art lithium battery tech, then please explain what IS

ANYTHING that is NOT a fire safety hazard. However, context is important...

The only reason we're still using Lithium batteries is because we haven't focused enough research on replacements.

This was stated as a qualifier.

And if you're going to lump *all* lithium battery technology together, you might want to not do that as there have been several revisions and improvements to the tech as the years have gone by

I stand by my statement.

In their current form they're idiotic, short range, short lifespan and typically fuelled by coal, not to mention potentially explosive.

Exactly right on every point. Current EVs are a joke. The unacceptable safety factor can not be understated. The durability and duty-cycle aspect are also unacceptable.

 

[Denver]

What's superior to it then?
If LifePo4 is not start of the art lithium battery tech, then please explain what IS


And if you're going to lump *all* lithium battery technology together, you might want to not do that as there have been several revisions and improvements to the tech as the years have gone by

There is nothing viable that is superior on a commercial level. The next step would be an evolution on top of Lifepo4, the "LMFP" (lithium manganese iron phosphate), safety and durability is conserved while the density approaches conventional lithium cells:

"Chinese battery company Gotion claims to have achieved weight energy density of 240 Wh/kg and a power energy density of 525 Wh/l and a duration of 1800-4000 cycles."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMFP_battery

 

[lexluthermiester]

There is nothing viable that is superior on a commercial level. The next step would be an evolution on top of Lifepo4, the "LMFP" (lithium manganese iron phosphate), safety and durability is conserved while the density approaches conventional lithium cells:

"Chinese battery company Gotion claims to have achieved weight energy density of 240 Wh/kg and a power energy density of 525 Wh/l and a duration of 1800-4000 cycles."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMFP_battery

That is an interesting chemistry. The one I was thinking of is similar to the following, just had to find it.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.2c09845

This is a Carbon Sulfur Potassium chemistry. The one I was thinking of has Copper included in the chemistry, but I can't find the research paper on it. The chemistry of a Carbon, Copper, Sulfur, Potassium battery just by the elements included indicates a potential for a higher energy density than any Lithium chemistry and without the safety concerns.

 

[Fangio1951]

lemonadesoda wrote = then perhaps the auto industry can create a replaceable battery block that you can swap out just like gas (propane/butane) canisters.

This is already being trialled in EU for large trucks = saw it on the TV here in Qz a few weeks ago.

A semi trailer pulls into servo next to a battery replacement enclosure/station and the truck's battery pack is removed by a device, similar to a fork lift, then puts a new battery pack back into the truck in a few minutes.

 

[Mussels]

ANYTHING that is NOT a fire safety hazard. However, context is important...

So far no battery tech is fire safe - the older ones could boil dry and overcharge and catch fire, too
It's merely the conditions that changed - being punctured was added to the list


As for automotive solar: go play with home solar stuff and you'll find out why. I've got a 160W setup outside that barely gets 80W most days, and the last 4 days -perfectly angled- it's gotten about 15W on average because it's been cloudy. Cars get parked in the shade, get dirty and so on, so they'd get even less than that.

Then the big one... they shatter. micro fractures ruin a panel easily, and high speed + debris = your panels wont get you shit.

New tech is needed for that to, solar powered charging stations are the only existing option that's viable there - even at home or work.

 

[Bomby569]

So far no battery tech is fire safe - the older ones could boil dry and overcharge and catch fire, too
It's merely the conditions that changed - being punctured was added to the list


As for automotive solar: go play with home solar stuff and you'll find out why. I've got a 160W setup outside that barely gets 80W most days, and the last 4 days -perfectly angled- it's gotten about 15W on average because it's been cloudy. Cars get parked in the shade, get dirty and so on, so they'd get even less than that.

Then the big one... they shatter. micro fractures ruin a panel easily, and high speed + debris = your panels wont get you shit.

New tech is needed for that to, solar powered charging stations are the only existing option that's viable there - even at home or work.

honestly to me it's one of the most insane things, how we don't have solar panels on top of cars or buses. I live in a place where the sun shines about 300 days a year and it's a waste. I don't thing any of that is a major issue, cars get parked in the shade or a garage or not, if there was a incentive, like saving money, i would let it be in the sun. Dirty it's easy to wash or clean come on, and the degradation is true but for the average lifespan of most cars (8years or less) it is not a problem AT ALL. High speed debris on the roof? i don't think your driving your car right man, what are you doing

 

[lexluthermiester]

So far no battery tech is fire safe

I didn't say "fire safe", I said "fire safety hazard". No other battery chemistry is prone to self-ignition like Lithium chemistries are and few are as flammable, including the Carbon-Sulfur-Potassium mentioned above. Lithium battery chemistries are unacceptably dangerous.

The Solid-State batteries NASA seems to have developed show potential as a widespread replacement to standard Lithium chemistries, as long as they can be mass produced at reasonable costs. The energy densities seem to be a huge step forward currently and show promise to increase with further refinements. NASA may very well have found our answer to the Lithium energy density limitation problems and at the same time made battery safely a relative non-issue.