Only some humans can see refresh rates faster than others, I am one of those humans.

[lawood]

The 60 hz experience you had 20 years ago is in no way comparable to what it's like today. Gsync and reflex drastically changes the fluidity and input latency, even at 60 hz.

And how does that invalidate what I said?
Fps higher than refresh rate still has the same results today as 20 years ago, ie less input lag.
Today we have technologies that help 60hz, sure. But 60hz is still 60hz. You'll have much less input lag running 140 fps on that same 60hz display and still can use reflex.
And reflex is not some miracle, it just prevents your GPU from running at 100%, eating up some performance in the process. It does a couple more things but it's mostly that.

And by the way, gsync actually increases input lag slightly.

 

[Dragam1337]

And how does that invalidate what I said?
Fps higher than refresh rate still has the same results today as 20 years ago, ie less input lag.
Today we have technologies that help 60hz, sure. But 60hz is still 60hz. You'll have much less input lag running 140 fps on that same 60hz display and still can use reflex.
And reflex is not some miracle, it just prevents your GPU from running at 100%, eating up some performance in the process. It does a couple more things but it's mostly that.

And by the way, gsync actually increases input lag slightly.

Indeed running higher fps than your refresh rate does have the same effect as 20 years ago - tons of screen tearing. Oh yes, so very desirable... totally not why they had worked on ways of effectively combating it for years, resulting in gsync.

As for reflex you are evidently ignorant of the fact that maxing out gpu load drastically increases input latency, thus why reflex drastically lowers the input latency.
Compared to the alternative solutions (aka static framerate limiters), the variable framerate limiter that is reflex is close to being a miracle.

 

[lawood]

You are just repeating what I said, but trying to insult me with your very limited understanding on the topic.
You are just just very limited on the topic, not even worth discussing with a clueless troll like you.
A toddler would make more sense than whatever nonsense comes out of you.

edit: and to be clear, I'm done replying to you. The moderation team must have a way to deal with trolls or this will be a very miserable place very soon. Its like debating a flat earther.
Take your clueless trophy home and keep polluting the forum with complete nonsense, couldn't care less.

 

[the54thvoid]

@Dragam1337 @lawood

You both ignored my request to not make it personal. I'm not asking again. Reply bans in place.

Edit: sorry for the drama folks.

 

[Jacky_BEL]

Seems like a lot of this discussion has become about bragging rights.

Similar to the audiophiles that need a $1000 cable on their 24bit / 192kHz DAC because of, ... bigger numbers ?

At the end of the day , who is better off, the gamer on 1080/60 or the one on 4K/240 ?
You could argue the one on 1080/60 needs better skills, because he needs to compensate a non-ideal situation.

 

[dirtyferret]

At the end of the day , who is better off, the gamer on 1080/60 or the one on 4K/240 ?

at the end of the day, it's whatever puts a smile on your face

Similar to the audiophiles that need a $1000 cable on their 24bit / 192kHz DAC because of,

it's not the specs of the cable but the gold plating on the ends that make those "1" and "0" sound better...as one fiddle loving DJ recently said "you can't get warm mids like that anymore"

 

[wheresmycar]

Seems like a lot of this discussion has become about bragging rights.

No Bragging rights here! 144hz nowadays is similarly priced as 60hz. It does get a little pricier with hi-res.

I actually envy team-60fps who are presumably already achieving satisfying motion blur, clean fast paced visuals, sound input lag and over-all smooth and immersive gameplay - that's something worth bragging about. Human perception certainly varies from person to person but you're extraordinarily skilled if your eye/brain power can achieve the same level of visual performance vs the 144/+ crowd. Maybe there's a handful of people who reap the same benefits at 30fps with some matrix-level frame generation visual cortex. Now that I know some people can't see the "enormous" difference between 60/144 i'm betting my house the 30fps-gang also exists, possibly too fewer in number to have their presence felt.

Think about it... we are compelled to subscribe to higher refresh rate panels to keep up with you lucky buggers. You've been fine-tuned, overclocked and just to piss down on us got FG for free too.

 

[Sithaer]

No Bragging rights here! 144hz nowadays is similarly priced as 60hz. It does get a little pricier with hi-res.

I actually envy team-60fps who are presumably already achieving satisfying motion blur, clean fast paced visuals, sound input lag and over-all smooth and immersive gameplay - that's something worth bragging about. Human perception certainly varies from person to person but you're extraordinarily skilled if your eye/brain power can achieve the same level of visual performance vs the 144/+ crowd. Maybe there's a handful of people who reap the same benefits at 30fps with some matrix-level frame generation visual cortex. Now that I know some people can't see the "enormous" difference between 60/144 i'm betting my house the 30fps-gang also exists, possibly too fewer in number to have their presence felt.

Think about it... we are compelled to subscribe to higher refresh rate panels to keep up with you lucky buggers. You've been fine-tuned, overclocked and just to piss down on us got FG for free too.

I have no issues playing on a 60/75Hz monitor all day long if I wanted to and I do get immersed in my singleplayer games like Forbidden West currently.
Never experienced motion sickness or any discomfort playing various type of games. 'yes even FPS'
I don't play competitive games anymore and even when I did it wasn't an issue for me when I've switched from a CRT to a 60 Hz LCD/TN panel monitor back in 2008.
Btw input lag is also something that I hardly ever notice unless it reaches some extreme levels like whatever was happening in Immortals of Aveum. 'which was more like an issue with the game most likely since other ppl also reported it'

at the end of the day, it's whatever puts a smile on your face

Exactly, I'm perfectly happy with my budget-ish 75Hz 21:9 Ultrawide monitor that I've bought in 2019 and for me this was the biggest game changer. 'I've had a Samsung SyncMaster BX2450 before this'

 

[freeagent]

Maybe it matters more with little monitors? By little I mean desktop?

 

[Jacky_BEL]

I believe framerate must increase in relation to the increase of screen "resolution", to retain image quality, especially to counteract blur in moving images.
And that it has a somewhat linear relationship

 

[wheresmycar]

I have no issues playing on a 60/75Hz monitor all day long if I wanted to and I do get immersed in my singleplayer games like Forbidden West currently.
Never experienced motion sickness or any discomfort playing various type of games. 'yes even FPS'
I don't play competitive games anymore and even when I did it wasn't an issue for me when I've switched from a CRT to a 60 Hz LCD/TN panel monitor back in 2008.
Btw input lag is also something that I hardly ever notice unless it reaches some extreme levels like whatever was happening in Immortals of Aveum. 'which was more like an issue with the game most likely since other ppl also reported it'


Exactly, I'm perfectly happy with my budget-ish 75Hz 21:9 Ultrawide monitor that I've bought in 2019 and for me this was the biggest game changer. 'I've had a Samsung SyncMaster BX2450 before this'

Its been a long time since i was last capped at 60fps but i agree with most singleplayer, narrative-propelled, RPG sort of titles (etc) i'd be most likely happy with 60hz panels. Unfortunately i still get a kick out of multiplayer fast paced competitive titles and a couple of pacey racers which in my experience are heavily starved for smooth motion. I think this might be key as to why some people vary in their visual perceptions - possibly down to game types or display output performance.

 

[Chrispy_]

Oh yes I've misquoted, meant to explain that to freeagent but that's an awesome and concise explanation really. I think people are a bit too hung up on things that don't really factor into the equation though, just the latency reduction justifies HFRs for me.

Yeah, latency reduction is a whole other benefit, just remember that you get severely diminishing returns in overall latency beyond 144/165Hz because the other stuff in the click-to-screen latency chain is fixed. Cutting 10ms out of the chain by moving from 60 to 144Hz is a significant portion of the latency, but at that point you're already most of the way there. The rest of the chain has lower-hanging fruit, and that's what things like Nvidia Reflex and Radeon Anti-lag attempt to tackle.

 

[wheresmycar]

I believe framerate must increase in relation to the increase of screen "resolution", to retain image quality, especially to counteract blur in moving images.
And that it has a somewhat linear relationship

agreed! The higher the RES, the sharper and more detailed the image hence the need for more frames to keep visual clarity in fast paced games in the balance. In my immediate experience i notice this way more in huge multiplayer maps, especially in dense environments at the backdrop. 90-120fps is my sweetspot for some finer visual clarity and quickly identifying distant enemies and scoping up to send them packing to Valhalla's level 2 Purgatory. That's where all the picnic sandwich eating, ribena drinking, sightseeing CAMPERS go.

 

[Space Lynx]

In regards to my original post, which I think this thread has completely deviated from, I would like to share with you all some direct experience. I was one of the earlier people I think to experience 120hz refresh rates on a 1440p IPS (imported South Korean panel in 2012) and it 100% gave me an advantage in multiplayer games. I specifically remember that in fps games I was topping the charts for a decent amount of time before high refresh rates became more prevalent, and I credit it to those high refresh rates, and that is one of the reasons I find this study interesting, because it shows that not everyone can experience high refresh the same way. Worth thinking about, it is interesting anyway.

In the future I hope we see some studies revealing more information about eyes, perception, image formation in the mind, etc.

 

[remixedcat]

60 hz feels like the cursor is messed up after I am done using this laptop that has 120hz display

 

[freeagent]

I think this thread has shown that a higher refresh rate makes you a harder core gamer.

Teh leet!1!!

 

[dirtyferret]

I think this thread has shown that a higher refresh rate makes you a harder core gamer.

you are confusing high refresh with RGB

 

[Space Lynx]

60 hz feels like the cursor is messed up after I am done using this laptop that has 120hz display

I get this too, it's really strange, the mind adapts really fast though, only takes me a day or two of regular use to make this phenomena go away, and Steam Deck/SteamOS does something really interesting to refresh rate, cause 60hz doesn't feel like 60hz on a Windows PC... it's very strange indeed, I can't figure it out.

 

[freeagent]

you are confusing high refresh with RGB

You are lucky I don't give you points for mocking my RGB

10 extra frames bro cmon!

 

[Dr. Dro]

In regards to my original post, which I think this thread has completely deviated from, I would like to share with you all some direct experience. I was one of the earlier people I think to experience 120hz refresh rates on a 1440p IPS (imported South Korean panel in 2012) and it 100% gave me an advantage in multiplayer games. I specifically remember that in fps games I was topping the charts for a decent amount of time before high refresh rates became more prevalent, and I credit it to those high refresh rates, and that is one of the reasons I find this study interesting, because it shows that not everyone can experience high refresh the same way. Worth thinking about, it is interesting anyway.

In the future I hope we see some studies revealing more information about eyes, perception, image formation in the mind, etc.

It's true, it is very beneficial in multiplayer games, particularly shooters. You know how a server works, right? It takes snapshots of every player's location and setting a given number of times a second (this is called the server tickrate), so it really doesn't take much of a genius to figure out what having the lowest presentation latency and highest screen update rate would do when milliseconds count.

I used to play Apex quite a lot until recently and - it's completely unplayable at 60 Hz, at least on PC where everyone plays aggressively, with great gear and have almost absolute MnK mastery. On consoles where everyone uses controller is far more tolerable though...

You are lucky I don't give you points for mocking my RGB

10 extra frames bro cmon!

RGB is soooo 2020. If you don't have a full disco setup with the mirror ball, stroboscopic lights, smoke generator and everything in plain 2024, you're doing it wrong, get on with the times man!

 

[R-T-B]

but because OLEDs can't strobe

Most of LGs can. Heck even my old B9 can but it breaks gsync and only works at 60hz.

 

[freeagent]

RGB is soooo 2020.

Pfft.

I game at the speed of LIGHT!!

Just kidding.. I pretty much only play Forza Motorsport right now.. and MSFS.. COD has become played out to me for many moons now

 

[wheresmycar]

You are lucky I don't give you points for mocking my RGB

10 extra frames bro cmon!

Only 10? Pull up the rainbow puke effect and max out on brightness and you'll easily scrape another 15% OC on top! (I don't usually share these trade secrets, i'm a competitive guy but i'm feeling a little charitable tonite).

Space lynx is gonna get real mad with this level of topic derailment. hehe

 

[freeagent]

Only 10?

Yeah.. AM4 limit I think.. not too sure yet.. still processing

Space lynx is gonna get real mad with this level of topic derailment. hehe

He loves it, he just pretends he doesn't

 

[R-T-B]

You are lucky I don't give you points for mocking my RGB

10 extra frames bro cmon!

Nah, it makes you a worse gamer honestly. It's easier to game with though.