Owners of Seasonic Focus Gold PSU's... coil whine?

[AsRock]

I see complaints about Seasonic coil whine from time to time, almost often enough to make me worry.

Lets face it all brands pretty much all company's have been known for it at some point, how ever makes me think they mighht be cherry picking for reviews. I am still yet to have one with coil whine.

I do know Seasonic support is top notch, well was 6 or so months ago at least.

 

[hat]

This coil whine is the first bad thing I've heard about seasonic units. Haven't heard anything but good things about them until now.

 

[Bill_Bright]

It makes a certain degree of sense. But ime it just doesn't work like that. For certain types of noise maybe, but not for interference coming from the power going into the bus. Noise from the PSU or the wall travels into everything it's connected to.

You are missing the point. It makes perfect sense to isolate the power supply (run it outside the computer on a bread board) because if the noise is truly coil whine generated by a device inside the PSU, you hopefully will be able to hear the noise coming from the direction of the PSU. If the noise is still coming from within the computer case (or speakers), it is not PSU coil whine.

These troubleshooting steps don't automatically lead immediately to the culprit but often will eliminate one suspect from the list possible suspects.

I don't know why it happens, I just know that it happens only when USB is carrying the audio, to any sort of USB audio device, even when it is isolated from power in the machine. And that it only happens with PSU's that have coil whine. What other explanation is there?

Nope! Again, true coil whine is caused by the "windings" of the wires physically vibrating and making noise. This happens all the time with transformer plates vibrating too - only then it is typically called a "buzzing" sound because it is done at a lower frequency in the audio spectrum (often the line frequency - 50 or 60Hz).

Coil and transformer vibration is common. Whether they make noise (whine or buzz) often depends on if the epoxy resins used to seal the windings and plates was properly applied, or damaged or not. Note too coil while (or transformer buzz) will often come and go, depending on the load and/or the temperature of the device. As matter heats, it expands. As it cools, it contracts. Either can result in windings or plates coming loose and being vibrating.

You are right, however, that "interference" can create such noise. But that is not the same as true coil whine.

 

[robot zombie]

You are missing the point. It makes perfect sense to isolate the power supply (run it outside the computer on a bread board) because if the noise is truly coil whine generated by a device inside the PSU, you hopefully will be able to hear the noise coming from the direction of the PSU. If the noise is still coming from within the computer case (or speakers), it is not PSU coil whine.

Whatever it is comes from the PSU. Doesn't matter where I plug it in, what machine I plug it into, or what speakers I have hooked up to what interface. The noise is there so long as I have that PSU hooked up, a usb audio interface hooked up to the mobo, and speakers plugged into it. And if I change it to a PSU that doesn't make this kind of noise, the noise goes away. So I have as you said already gone to measures to isolate the PSU.

Coil and transformer vibration is common. Whether they make noise (whine or buzz) often depends on if the epoxy resins used to seal the windings and plates was properly applied, or damaged or not. Note too coil while (or transformer buzz) will often come and go, depending on the load and/or the temperature of the device. As matter heats, it expands. As it cools, it contracts. Either can result in windings or plates coming loose and being vibrating.

You are right, however, that "interference" can create such noise. But that is not the same as true coil whine.

That makes sense. Perhaps there is something happening with the PSU in addition to coil whine. I say that because it really does have that distinctive coil whine character to it. What you say is just a little strange to me as whatever the interference is has the same distinct sound as what most people would call "coil whine." It's not that I don't believe you. I'm just working with what I have to go by. For example, upon removing the PSU from the case and listening to the noise through the back of the PSU, while having one speaker hooked up to a usb interface pointed directly towards the other ear, I get the noise in stereo. It is literally exactly the same!

And again I have gone to fairly rigorous measures to try and isolate causes, trying different circuits/locations, speakers, devices, motherboards, cases, you name it... I have swapped it, in every single possible combo. The only two constants in the noise situation are A, a PSU that makes audible noise and B, a USB data connection to the audio interface. That is all that is required.

And on the flipside, if I swap to a PSU that does not make such noises, I cannot replicate the interference. I really do feel that I've tested all possible suspects at this point. And I've narrowed it down to two specific required conditions. There must be a noisy PSU, and at a minimum a USB data connection feeding something that feeds any kind of speakers. Literally everything else around those two things can change and the noise remains present both coming from PSU and being broadcast through speakers. While if I either switch out the PSU or use a non-electrical connection to the audio interface, it goes away.

So I really, truly can only conclude a few things here. The noise I'm hearing through my speakers is directly linked to the audible noise I have confirmed to be coming from the PSU. And the source is without a shadow of a doubt the PSU in question. I've done enough testing to narrow it down to that. So today I am sending it out for credit. Whatever the real explanation is, I may never know. And frankly I'm no longer interested in finding out. It's enough to know that all I really can do is get rid of the PSU, and that doing so does in fact rectify the problem. We can all go round and round with this for days, or I can get a quieter PSU and get on with my life.

 

[Beastie]

coil whine is caused by the "windings" of the wires physically vibrating and making noise.

Not disagreeing with that at all.

But I'd like to point out that although the vibration makes the "whine", the vibration is caused by resonance which is a function of both the electromagnetic and mechanical properties of the offending circuit.

So if there is electronic noise this can sometimes be accompanied by corresponding mechanical noise and visa versa.

For example I had an old PC with a noname PSU. The sound from the minijack had a persistent high pitched whine. If I unplugged the minijack I could still (faintly) hear the same corresponding whine, from the PSU. Changing the PSU removed both the coil whine and the corresponding distortion coming over the minijack.

I'm not saying this will always be the case, just that I have seen instances where coil whine and electronic interference are obviously linked.

 

[robot zombie]

Not disagreeing with that at all.

But I'd like to point out that although the vibration makes the "whine", the vibration is caused by resonance which is a function of both the electromagnetic and mechanical properties of the offending circuit.

So if there is electronic noise this can sometimes be accompanied by corresponding mechanical noise and visa versa.

For example I had an old PC with a noname PSU. The sound from the minijack had a persistent high pitched whine. If I unplugged the minijack I could still (faintly) hear the same corresponding whine, from the PSU. Changing the PSU removed both the coil whine and the corresponding distortion coming over the minijack.

I'm not saying this will always be the case, just that I have seen instances where coil whine and electronic interference are obviously linked.

THANK you. Some of yall got me thinking I'm really losing it here.

I get it. I know it's not exactly normal.

But... I mean, it's right there. Audible noise from inside this specific PSU transferring to any speakers with nothing but a USB data connection between any interface and any machine (with any combination of components inside any case [or no case,] with the suspect PSU as the control,) all running off of any circuit or combination of circuits in any building, utilizing any cables/cords/strips I can go between. *Phew* That's a lot of variables! I hope I didn't miss any At this point I've gotten so efficient at all of these little testing procedures that I'd get a promotion if it was my job to do them.

It may seem like nonsense for an audible noise emanating from the PSU to translate into electrical noise, which then makes it to USB interfaces with just a data-only connection from the machine. But that's exactly what's happening. How or what's exactly happening, I don't know. But I have observed the outcome and the conditions required enough times to be sure the answer is somewhere in that specific scenario. I know... I wouldn't believe it if I wasn't stuck dealing with it. But then... experience with amplifiers and other highly-sensitive pieces of audio equipment reminds me that noise sometimes works in mysterious ways. Stranger things can happen.

Just seems like kind of a waste of everyone's time to look for other explanations when it's already long been established that noise goes away when I try another PSU. It just isn't sensible to blame anything but the PSU. Not trying to say I know better. Maybe one of you has the actual explanation, but that still wouldn't likely change the reality I'm already left with. At this point, I don't know how there could be any possible solution other than the one I've already verified will work. And it's not like I'm out that much more to swap a new PSU up a bracket, anyway. I'm happy to do that if it means not banging my head against a wall.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's input. I post about these issues because other people often see things I can't from where I'm at. I just want to be clear where I'm at with this so that we don't keep going in circles with what is actually a very simple problem when you ignore how strange it is.

I'm still kinda debating on a few PSU's. I'm torn between a 650w Supernova G3, RM 5/6/750x (depending on price difference,) Seasonic Focus+ Gold 650w, or maybe even a Bitfenix Whisper M 550w. If anybody has others that they've owned and can recommend in that general price range, I'm all ears. Specifically interested in whether or not you ever hear any whine in whatever PSU within this range that you happen to have experience with.

 

[nomdeplume]

I think you would be much happier with a dedicated audio pc. Or a saner hobby.

 

[eidairaman1]

Lets face it all brands pretty much all company's have been known for it at some point, how ever makes me think they mighht be cherry picking for reviews. I am still yet to have one with coil whine.

I do know Seasonic support is top notch, well was 6 or so months ago at least.

I Have the X-1250XM2 from them, it is 4 years old, no coil whine.

THANK you. Some of yall got me thinking I'm really losing it here.

I get it. I know it's not exactly normal.

But... I mean, it's right there. Audible noise from inside this specific PSU transferring to any speakers with nothing but a USB data connection between any interface and any machine (with any combination of components inside any case [or no case,] with the suspect PSU as the control,) all running off of any circuit or combination of circuits in any building, utilizing any cables/cords/strips I can go between. *Phew* That's a lot of variables! I hope I didn't miss any At this point I've gotten so efficient at all of these little testing procedures that I'd get a promotion if it was my job to do them.

It may seem like nonsense for an audible noise emanating from the PSU to translate into electrical noise, which then makes it to USB interfaces with just a data-only connection from the machine. But that's exactly what's happening. How or what's exactly happening, I don't know. But I have observed the outcome and the conditions required enough times to be sure the answer is somewhere in that specific scenario. I know... I wouldn't believe it if I wasn't stuck dealing with it. But then... experience with amplifiers and other highly-sensitive pieces of audio equipment reminds me that noise sometimes works in mysterious ways. Stranger things can happen.

Just seems like kind of a waste of everyone's time to look for other explanations when it's already long been established that noise goes away when I try another PSU. It just isn't sensible to blame anything but the PSU. Not trying to say I know better. Maybe one of you has the actual explanation, but that still wouldn't likely change the reality I'm already left with. At this point, I don't know how there could be any possible solution other than the one I've already verified will work. And it's not like I'm out that much more to swap a new PSU up a bracket, anyway. I'm happy to do that if it means not banging my head against a wall.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everyone's input. I post about these issues because other people often see things I can't from where I'm at. I just want to be clear where I'm at with this so that we don't keep going in circles with what is actually a very simple problem when you ignore how strange it is.

I'm still kinda debating on a few PSU's. I'm torn between a 650w Supernova G3, RM 5/6/750x (depending on price difference,) Seasonic Focus+ Gold 650w, or maybe even a Bitfenix Whisper M 550w. If anybody has others that they've owned and can recommend in that general price range, I'm all ears. Specifically interested in whether or not you ever hear any whine in whatever PSU within this range that you happen to have experience with.

Get another SS.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Whatever it is comes from the PSU. Doesn't matter where I plug it in, what machine I plug it into, or what speakers I have hooked up to what interface. The noise is there so long as I have that PSU hooked up, a usb audio interface hooked up to the mobo, and speakers plugged into it. And if I change it to a PSU that doesn't make this kind of noise, the noise goes away. So I have as you said already gone to measures to isolate the PSU.

Okay but again, if the noise is coming from the speakers and not from inside the PSU, that suggests electrical interference, not mechanical coil whine. This interference is likely caused by a faulty filter cap, bad ground, or faulty shielding inside the PSU (or some combination of those problems).

Not disagreeing with that at all.

But I'd like to point out that although the vibration makes the "whine", the vibration is caused by resonance which is a function of both the electromagnetic and mechanical properties of the offending circuit.

So if there is electronic noise this can sometimes be accompanied by corresponding mechanical noise and visa versa.

True but NOT the point! Computer power supplies are supposed to output DC voltages only. There should be nothing on the output side of a computer power supply that is "alternating". So nothing would cause expanding and collapsing magnetic fields in any of the motherboard's or sound card's circuitry EXCEPT the analog portion of the audio (i.e. the music!).

Even if the PSU is failing to properly suppress the ripple, this would NOT be induced into those audio circuits as the audio is all handled digitally until converted by the DACs (powered by DC) in the final stages. If ripple suppression is that bad, it is likely the motherboard and/or CPU would fail to function.

 

[Beastie]

True but NOT the point! Computer power supplies are supposed to output DC voltages only. There should be nothing on the output side of a computer power supply that is "alternating". So nothing would cause expanding and collapsing magnetic fields in any of the motherboard's or sound card's circuitry EXCEPT the analog portion of the audio (i.e. the music!).

Even if the PSU is failing to properly suppress the ripple, this would NOT be induced into those audio circuits as the audio is all handled digitally until converted by the DACs (powered by DC) in the final stages. If ripple suppression is that bad, it is likely the motherboard and/or CPU would fail to function.

To clarify, I'm not saying coil whine will cause distortion of digital audio (or any other digital signal).
As you imply, digital pretty much works or it doesn't. If the issue were in the digital stage the effect would probably be silence, dropouts or clipping.
I think I appreciate the distinction you are making and I agree.

However if (as OP reports) there is distortion from both audio and a similar sounding coil whine then it maybe that the same issue is causing both. So- could be a bad PSU supplying USB power.. could be a bad mains supply from the grid.. could even be intereference from household lighting or other appliances.. or any combination of the above and other factors.

 

[hat]

I'm pretty sure the OP mentioned using a UPS? That should filter out any bad power possibilities...

 

[eidairaman1]

I'm pretty sure the OP mentioned using a UPS? That should filter out any bad power possibilities...

They can be cause of problems too

 

[Bill_Bright]

I'm pretty sure the OP mentioned using a UPS? That should filter out any bad power possibilities...

Not really. If the anomaly causing the problem is originating from the "grid", then the UPSs (if a decent UPS) will step in.

Remember, an UPS supplies AC to the PSU. So the PSU still must convert AC to DC and it is that process and circuitry in the PSU where inductor coils (and transformer plates) exist. And sadly, if the UPS kicks over to battery and the UPS is not of good quality, it may even be delivering dirtier power! Note this is NOT a debate about pure or approximation sinewave outputs so lets not go there in this thread.

If the voltage from the grid is clean (as it usually is 99.9% of the time), the UPS will simply "pass through" the AC to the connected devices until an anomaly is detected. With a quality UPS, when minor anomalies such as surges, spikes, dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges), or brownouts (long duration sags) occur, the UPS AVR (automatic voltage regulation) circuits will suppress or boost as necessary to clean up the waveform. If an extreme anomaly occurs (excessive surge, spike, dip or sag) occurs, it will kick over to battery. But regardless, it still delivers AC to the PSU.

 

[AsRock]

To check if it's the mains or not why not just unplug the UPS from the wall and see if the issue is still there or not ?, well as long as the battery's good enough and you don't run it empty all should be good.

 

[robot zombie]

No UPS here. And as far as I can see/measure, power going in is good... ...or at least it's as good as my friends or my employers. Changing buildings generally has no effect.

I've decided to give Seasonic another shot. Got a 650w focus gold coming in. We shall see...

Okay but again, if the noise is coming from the speakers and not from inside the PSU, that suggests electrical interference, not mechanical coil whine. This interference is likely caused by a faulty filter cap, bad ground, or faulty shielding inside the PSU (or some combination of those problems).

The noise comes from both. Same noise I hear directly out of the PSU, I also hear through speakers.

I think your explanation makes sense, though. At the end of the day, I agree with Beastie that the cause of both noises is probably shared directly. How things like this can happen without everything not working, even I don't know. Like I've said, wouldn't believe it if I wasn't witnessing it. There's something behind it that I don't think any of us have reached yet.

I think you would be much happier with a dedicated audio pc. Or a saner hobby.

LOL just saw this. Dedicated audio pc would be sweet. In the past I've thought about doing a few arduino music server setups... ...have my entire library go to any audio setup in the house via those, fed by a central HTPC that stores it all and have the arduinos be controlled via my phone. But that's getting to ridiculous "do it just to do it" levels. Realistically I would like to build a production oriented machine at some point, though honestly I'm more interested in getting more physical gear in my life. A lot of stuff I've got my eye on. Racks and mixers man. I've got plans worked up for racks, stands, and desks. Did I mention I do woodworking (though I'm not very good at it) as a bit of a side hobby? What was that about sane hobbies again? I was busy intricately twisting together tiny 40g strands of wire to make coils for my vape. Though to be honest I've spent a good part of my day tweaking my Skyrim mods. I broke 250 on my mod list today.

I'd need meds to take on a normal pastime. You know something is wrong when I start going for walks, watching sports, or whatever it is normal people do.

 

[robot zombie]

Welp, wound up with a 750w Focus Gold because the price difference was basically nothing.

Shoulda known better. This time I decided not to drop it right in the case and I'm glad I didn't go removing the one in there now. This PSU is the worst yet. It's screeching like crazy. And because I have it out of the case, it's obviously coming straight from the PSU. What I get coming though speakers is aggressively loud. I can't overpower it with music.

In my entire time building PC's I have never had a PSU make any kind of noise. Even 20-30 dollar ones. Now I can't seem to get a decent one that doesn't. What's going on here?

EDIT: Listening more closely I can hear the sound coming from two places. If I listen at the PSU, I can hear the high-pitched ringing sound. The other place I can hear it really well is off of the back of the motherboard, where the VRM's are...

And actually, if I put my ear up to the VRM's, I can hear this intermittent crackling, which has been a constant with all PSU's, except for the one. But that's with every board I've tried. Is it possible all of them just have VRM problems? I want to believe the naughty PSU's are causing them to make the noise but I don't know anymore.

Just tried it in my secondary rig. Same exact issue when I plug in this PSU. Safe to say I will probaby never buy Seasonic again. Don't care how good the performance is if it leaves my ears ringing after I turn it off. :/

Weirdly enough... switching stuff around has made this EVGA 450BT a lot quieter. Whether or not it will stay that way I don't know... Still noise, but it's low. I'd keep it as a compromise, but I've got a ryzen 5 2600 on the way, which I don't feel comfortable running off of a substandard PSU... I won't be installing it until I get a decent one that's quiet. So I guess the quest continues.

 

[nomdeplume]

In my entire time building PC's I have never had a PSU make any kind of noise. Even 20-30 dollar ones. Now I can't seem to get a decent one that doesn't. What's going on here?

Amazon?

Going to be honest I didn't have great hopes for this Gold psu. If every other one you have ever owned was quiet I would just buy the cheapest one available locally. No shipping. For $20 you can afford to throw it at something immovable if it does the same thing.

 

[robot zombie]

Amazon?

Going to be honest I didn't have great hopes for this Gold psu. If every other one you have ever owned was quiet I would just buy the cheapest one available locally. No shipping. For $20 you can afford to throw it at something immovable if it does the same thing.

True. And yes it's been amazon the whole time. I have prime and the return policy is godlike. Unfortunately there is nowhere I can go around here to walk in and buy a PSU.

Maybe I'll just snag another G3 and get on with my life

But with my luck something else will happen XD

 

[nomdeplume]

To some extent you tried the right things in the wrong order. Proof of concept the psu issue can be solved might go a long ways here though.

 

[robot zombie]

To some extent you tried the right things in the wrong order. Proof of concept the psu issue can be solved might go a long ways here though.

I mean, I've done that. An EVGA G3 550w didn't make any audible noise and left me with quiet speakers, with everything else in this build the same as it is now. Unfortunately, I don't have that exact PSU now. I wasn't expecting that I would wind up with nothing but unbearably noisy PSU's. It's never, ever, been a thing in my mind. So now all I can do is try to find another one like that, which for some reason is now like playing the lottery. Don't know what you've got till its gone. Took it for granted and now it's too late.

I accept that this is partially my fault for being trusting, getting ahead of myself, and fixing what wasn't broken, but now I'm in the hands of fate, and with everything that's happened it seems like I could've been from the very beginning of this build. 1 out 5 PSU's from different brands now and only the very first one did not have this problem at all.

 

[hat]

Two Seasonic units with shitty coil whine? That's really strange. I'm starting to wonder if Seasonic isn't going downhill...

 

[robot zombie]

Two Seasonic units with shitty coil whine? That's really strange. I'm starting to wonder if Seasonic isn't going downhill...

I'm not even sure it is coil whine. When I used to repair guitar amplifiers, bad capacitors sometimes used to squeal like that. Flick it on and you can hear this high-pitched, whining, squealing noise coming from the back and out of the cab. I remember it well because that's a nerve wracking thing to try and fix. Removing big capacitors is very dangerous, tricky business. Sometimes I had to send them out. It sounds awful similar to those, though.

It's definitely something. I'm going to go through the usual of trying different locations and machines before I send it back. Fortunately I have the connections to do that. All I know for now is that it's exactly the same on two different machines with completely different parts on completely different circuits.

But yeah, I'm not sure what to make of it. Nobody can be that unlucky, right? Both bought from Amazon.

 

[hat]

Maybe, or maybe Seasonic is beginning to ride the coattails of their own reputation, much like Corsair did with their power supply units. Originally they sourced them from... good old Seasonic, and then went with other ceaper/lesser quality brands, slapping the same Corsair label on them that had a reputation for quality...

I don't think you could be that unlucky, but I don't want to believe that one of the few known good power supply manufacturers is starting to put out shitty units, either.

 

[robot zombie]

Maybe, or maybe Seasonic is beginning to ride the coattails of their own reputation, much like Corsair did with their power supply units. Originally they sourced them from... good old Seasonic, and then went with other ceaper/lesser quality brands, slapping the same Corsair label on them that had a reputation for quality...

I don't think you could be that unlucky, but I don't want to believe that one of the few known good power supply manufacturers is starting to put out shitty units, either.

I'm right there with you. Not sure what to make of it. But I know at least one other person in here has had multiple noisy Seasonics.

The thing is, this exact unit tested exceptionally well with johnnyguru. I wish I had the means to test this one myself! I'm wondering if maybe it does test well, but is just noisy for whatever reason. I wonder about that with a lot of PSU's now... ...it's one of those things people never seem to talk about. And for me, it only matters because it seriously fucks with USB audio, which is still kind of a niche use. Everything else works fine. All rails run about as close to perfect as possible.

 

[hat]

I would expect coil whine to be covered by a review done by johnnyguru. If not, that's a pretty poor oversight on their part, as that is a major concern for a lot of people looking to buy a power supply. It's also possible maybe you really are that unlucky, or maybe quality has gone downhill at Seasonic at some point after that review, or maybe Seasonic sent them a cherry picked unit for review. Lots of possibilities here and no way to know for certain... not much point in doing anything else other than saying "well, fuck" and trying to find a good power supply once again.