RTX 3080 Crash to Desktop Problems Likely Connected to AIB-Designed Capacitor Choice

[mtcn77]

I don't get the reception that I'm signalling for, but what about chain of excellence?
This is what TSMC posted a month before. Fluke or coincidence?
Nvidia is trying to reinvent the wheel, maybe...

Introducing TSMC 3DFabric: TSMC’s Family of 3D Silicon Stacking, Advanced Packaging Technologies and Services - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited

Computing workloads have evolved more over the past decade than perhaps the previous four decades. Not too long ago, word processing, spreadsheets, presentation graphics and the occasional game of solitaire were the typical workload for even the most advanced processors in the world.

www.tsmc.com

 

[blobster21]

Come on, we need more insightful comments here ! (and i'm bored to death anyway, so keep them coming please )

 

[lexluthermiester]

Nvidia never admits being wrong and always blames the partners (TSMC, Apple, etc.), so here they will say that the fault is with the AIB and the fix will be based on downclocking...

It's not NVidia's fault. The AIB's are solely to blame for not following the recommendations and not doing proper testing. The reality is, people will need to do a little bit of downclocking to keep those card stable. It's not the end of the world and likely will not even affect over-all card performance to a noticeable degree.

 

[Chomiq]

It's not NVidia's fault. The AIB's are solely to blame for not following the recommendations and not doing proper testing.

Nvidia has to approve each partner board design. Also, aib partners didn't even get the drivers until review samples were shipped out.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Nvidia has to approve each partner board design.

The design, yes. That doesn't mean it was tested buy NVidia. That is the responsibility of the AIB's.

Also, aib partners didn't even get the drivers until review samples were shipped out.

And that is still not NVidia's fault. The problem would not exist if the AIB's had followed the recommendations stated by NVidia. That is what recommendations are for.

 

[zlobby]

It's beautiful

Indeed so, most indeedely!

 

[BoboOOZ]

It's not NVidia's fault. The AIB's are solely to blame for not following the recommendations and not doing proper testing. The reality is, people will need to do a little bit of downclocking to keep those card stable. It's not the end of the world and likely will not even affect over-all card performance to a noticeable degree.

We don't know yet what's happening exactly, but you are already sure Nvidia has no responsibility in this? That's very unbiased of you.

 

[asdkj1740]

subbed

 

[EarthDog]

subbed

just an FYI, there is a "watch" button at the top of the page just for subscribing.

We don't know yet what's happening exactly, but you are already sure Nvidia has no responsibility in this? That's very unbiased of you.

What is Nvidia's role in this?

 

[lexluthermiester]

We don't know yet what's happening exactly, but you are already sure Nvidia has no responsibility in this?

So far, these problems are NOT happening with NVidia's own cards, nor the higher-tier cards from AIB's. It's just the lower tier offerings from AIB's. The responsibility rests with the AIBs. Please review;

That's very unbiased of you.

Bias has nothing to do with it. The info out there is showing the problem.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

So far, these problems are NOT happening with NVidia's own cards, nor the higher-tier card from AIB's. It's just the lower tier offerings from AIB's. The responsibility rests with the AIBs. Please review;

No company shouts more about their work with partners, Devs and AIB.
The reference spec design they passed AIB was different to their own reference card's.
And they compressed development and testing time to near zero.
And they allowed such design variation in their development reference kit instead of both knowing that it needed specific voltage conditioning and informing AIB partners or limiting those AIB designs.

It's not all on Nvidia but they share the blame.

 

[BoboOOZ]

So far, these problems are NOT happening with NVidia's own cards, nor the higher-tier cards from AIB's. It's just the lower tier offerings from AIB's. The responsibility rests with the AIBs.


Bias has nothing to do with it. The info out there is showing the problem.

That's not true, and Jays2c is fun and all, but his technical abilities aren't awesome. he might be onto something, but apparently, FE crashes as well

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309659834468298753

Most of the time, in this type of situation, the responsibility is shared, but the chances than Nvidia gave very clear and correct specifications and the AIB just blatantly disprespected them are close to 0.

Time will tell, but it looks like we were expecting another Pascal and we got another Fermi... They'll fix it soon, I imagine, if it's just a matter of dropping the frequency a tad should be easily fixable.

 

[Dave65]

It's not NVidia's fault. The AIB's are solely to blame for not following the recommendations and not doing proper testing. The reality is, people will need to do a little bit of downclocking to keep those card stable. It's not the end of the world and likely will not even affect over-all card performance to a noticeable degree.

You GOT to be kidding , right?
This is exactly on Nvidia.

 

[Radi_SVK]

So, as an Electronics Engineer and PCB Designer I feel I have to react here.
The point that Igor makes about improper power design causing instability is a very plausible one. Especially with first production runs where it indeed could be the case that they did not have the time/equipment/driver etc to do proper design verification.


However, concluding from this that a POSCAP = bad and MLCC = good is waaay to harsh and a conclusion you cannot make.


Both POSCAPS (or any other 'solid polymer caps' and MLCC's have there own characteristics and use cases.


Some (not all) are ('+' = pos, '-' = neg):
MLCC:
+ cheap
+ small
+ high voltage rating in small package
+ high current rating
+ high temperature rating
+ high capacitance in small package
+ good at high frequencies
- prone to cracking
- prone to piezo effect
- bad temperature characteristics
- DC bias (capacitance changes a lot under different voltages)


POSCAP:
- more expensive
- bigger
- lower voltage rating
+ high current rating
+ high temperature rating
- less good at high frequencies
+ mechanically very strong (no MLCC cracking)
+ not prone to piezo effect
+ very stable over temperature
+ no DC bias (capacitance very stable at different voltages)


As you can see, both have there strengths and weaknesses and one is not particularly better or worse then the other. It all depends.
In this case, most of these 3080 and 3090 boards may use the same GPU (with its requirements) but they also have very different power circuits driving the chips on the cards.
Each power solution has its own characteristics and behavior and thus its own requirements in terms of capacitors used.
Thus, you cannot simply say: I want the card with only MLCC's because that is a good design.
It is far more likely they just could/would not have enough time and/or resources to properly verify their designs and thus where not able to do proper adjustments to their initial component choices.
This will very likely work itself out in time. For now, just buy the card that you like and if it fails, simply claim warranty. Let them fix the problem and down draw to many conclusions based on incomplete information and (educated) guess work.

Amen and thank you!
Dont think I have to look for more informative and unbiased opinion.

 

[lexluthermiester]

It's not all on Nvidia but they share the blame.

There's likely some truth to that, but people are acting like it's ALL on NVidia which is a crock of poop.... Example you ask?...

You GOT to be kidding , right?
This is exactly on Nvidia.

There you go..

 

[MelonGx]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309840810880282625

For those people who insisted TUF won't crash, I post an evidence video of my TUF crashed.

 

[lexluthermiester]

That's not true, and Jays2c is fun and all, but his technical abilities aren't awesome.

His are better than yours it would seem...

 

[asdkj1740]

His are better than yours it would seem...

you should check his latest response on his twitter.

 

[harm9963]

The one i want!

TUF-RTX3080-10G-GAMING｜Graphics Cards｜ASUS USA

TUF Gaming graphics cards add hefty 3D horsepower to the TUF Gaming ecosystem, with features like Auto-Extreme manufacturing, steel backplates, high-tech fans, and IP5X certifications. And it’s all backed by a rigorous battery of validation tests to ensure compatibility with the latest TUF...

www.asus.com

 

[mtcn77]

Amen and thank you!
Dont think I have to look for more informative and unbiased opinion.

Agreed. People who show up at such a debate make it almost into a fortune to behold.

 

[BigBonedCartman]

RTX 2000 series had faulty brand new card randomly dying, RTX 3000 series has AIB partners cheaping out on capacitors, AMD constantly has driver issues..... WTF is wrong with GPU manufacturing?

 

[lexluthermiester]

you should check his latest response on his twitter.

Who's? What response are we talking about?

WTF is wrong with GPU manufacturing?

Nothing. They are making ever more complex and powerful cards to push the limits of performance in very tight time constraints. I'm not excusing these problems, only offering explanation. The industry needs to slow it down a little and focus on quality more.

 

[Sybaris_Caesar]

I don't get it tbh. POSCAP is supposedly more expensive than MLCC (per that reddit post). So supposedly overbuilt cards aren't performing as intended or something? But damn, people are gonna run towards ASUS now. Both Strix and cheaper TUF use all-MLCC design.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I don't get it tbh. POSCAP is supposedly more expensive than MLCC (per that reddit post).

The Reddit post was wrong. The whole process of mounting the smaller components is a more expensive one. The components themselves are not all that expensive it's just getting them soldered on that presents the more involved process.

 

[blobster21]

I don't get it tbh. POSCAP is supposedly more expensive than MLCC (per that reddit post). So supposedly overbuilt cards aren't performing as intended or something? But damn, people are gonna run towards ASUS now. Both Strix and cheaper TUF use all-MLCC design.

No, it's not THAT easy. If anything, those components will to the job within their respective operating range nicely. It's just that the gpu boost is too much to handle for them. 2 contributors wrote it already :

concluding from this that a POSCAP = bad and MLCC = good is waaay to harsh and a conclusion you cannot make.


Both POSCAPS (or any other 'solid polymer caps' and MLCC's have there own characteristics and use cases.


Some (not all) are ('+' = pos, '-' = neg):
MLCC:
+ cheap
+ small
+ high voltage rating in small package
+ high current rating
+ high temperature rating
+ high capacitance in small package
+ good at high frequencies
- prone to cracking
- prone to piezo effect
- bad temperature characteristics
- DC bias (capacitance changes a lot under different voltages)


POSCAP:
- more expensive
- bigger
- lower voltage rating
+ high current rating
+ high temperature rating
- less good at high frequencies
+ mechanically very strong (no MLCC cracking)
+ not prone to piezo effect
+ very stable over temperature
+ no DC bias (capacitance very stable at different voltages)

Just replacing everything with MLCCs will NOT help the design to reach higher speeds and stability. Why? Because one need to use all different caps in tandem, as their frequency response is different, as well as ESR, ESL and other factors.

Having everything with MLCC like glorified asus does means you have single deep resonance notch, instead of two less prominent notches when use MLCC+POSCAP together. Using three kinds, smaller POSCAP, bigger POSCAP, and some MLCCs gives better figure with 3 notches.. But again, with modern DC-DC controllers lot of this can be tuned from PID control and converter slew rate tweaks. This adjustability is one of big reasons why enthusiast cards often use "digital" that allows tweaking almost on the fly for such parameters. However this is almost never exposed to user, as wrong settings can easily make power phases go brrrrrr with smokes. Don't ask me how I know...


Before looking onto poor 6 capacitors behind the die - why nobody talks about huge POSCAP capacitor bank behind VRM on FE card, eh? Custom AIB cards don't have that, just usual array without much of bulk capacitance. If I'd be designing a card, I'd look on a GPU's power demands and then add enough bulk capacitance first to make sure of good power impedance margin at mid-frequency ranges, while worrying about capacitors for high-frequency decoupling later, as that is relatively easier job to tweak.

After all these wild theories are easy to test, no need any engineering education to prove this wrong or right. Take "bad" crashing card with "bad POSCAPs", test it to confirm crashes... Then desolder "bad POSCAPs", put bunch of 47uF low-ESR MLCCs instead, and test again if its "fixed". Something tells me that it would not be such a simple case and card may still crash, heh. ;-)