We need a dedicated Power Supply Forum

[_JP_]

I like the idea of a PSU forum .. could someone count how many recent threads, like from the last week, could be moved into such a new forum?

You could have a low number of threads since there isn't a forum to begin with, or actually there isn't that much of a following for the topics outside the common troubleshooting to identify if it's the whole unit to be replaced or not.
The moving factor I see would be if the community heavily discussed the reviews (so obviously outside what you, crmaris, and recently suvirintojas have produced over the years), benchmarks, new units, OEMs and built our own units, which I recall has not been the significantly case since I registered here.

 

[Pawelr98]

I do think there is content for the PSU section.
When you think of the average ATX PSU, it is more or less boring.
But then you have a load of things which are not covered by usual reviews.

Such as low power OEMs, picoPSU-like devices, server power supplies and many other things.
Those first two being very neglected in reviews, when it comes to low power servers.
Nowadays it can be hard to find reviews of <400W power supplies because "who is going to buy that in this day and age".
You would be surprised, how many gems are hiding out there, just because it has a Dell sticker on it. 10-15USD 80+ Gold power supplies.
And you don't really need "special" equipment to verify things, just a kill-a-watt (or equivalent) plus hardware specs is often a sufficient guidance for certain applications.

Then you can talk about converting between standards, such as how to make nvidia high power connectors on older units, general recabling, calculating the actual power needs of a machine (no, full combined load as the guidance is not always the correct way).

 

[Bill_Bright]

I like the idea of a PSU forum .. could someone count how many recent threads, like from the last week, could be moved into such a new forum?

Even if the number is not high from the last week, part of that may simply be confusion over what is an appropriate question for the Hardware Forum.

Why not consider a trial period? That is, create a new PSU Forum for discussing and comparing specific PSUs, PSU technologies and associated ATX standards for PSUs in order to help folks with their purchasing decisions and general education about PSUs while leaving threads concerning help with troubleshooting potential PSU and power problems to the Hardware help forum?

Keep this forum open for 30 - 90 days. That should give posters (especially us regulars who already have a big interest in PSUs) time to find it, "Watch" it, point others to it, and participate in it. Then see how it goes. If not enough activity to warrant keeping it separate, merge it hardware and delete it.

What is a Japanese capacitor?

Marketing hype! There is nothing to suggest a Japanese capacitor is superior or a Chinese is inferior because one was made in Japan and the other in China. But that's for another discussion.

 

[Shrek]

Cool, there are some links in Aris’s article with more info. I don’t think it would be useful for a layperson though, since “understanding the topology” implies having some knowledge of electrical engineering already.

that actually helps a lot as it cuts down the efficient ones to perhaps just one.

 

[Onasi]

@Shrek
Yup, and it’s that one that’s used in pretty much every modern PC PSU worth its price. So, essentially, for this specific application the point becomes moot.

Such as low power OEMs, picoPSU-like devices, server power supplies and many other things.
Those first two being very neglected in reviews, when it comes to low power servers.

This is extremely niche. Scratch that, SFX PSUs are niche, this is a niche within a niche. I don’t think something like this requires a sub-forum. Though having a dedicated stickied thread for those interested might be worthwhile.

 

[Shrek]

I wonder if active rectification is used a lot these days (to save power); I also recall a trick to run rectifiers hot as they are more efficient then.

 

[wheresmycar]

A dedicated PSU forum is essentially only a "filter" to get all PSU related threads (which exist) in one place. Nothing wrong with that. In-fact, if TPU deployed a forum for each component I'd welcome that too. I prefer everything categorised, made simple and easily accessible.

I'm no stranger to misinformation, lack of engagement and generally less interesting material when it comes to PSUs but that's no justification for missing out on the potential benefits.

 

[maxfly]

Teaching proper troubleshooting procedures to new members and members who aren't familiar with PSU issues. As well as helping those same types of members go about finding a solid unit when configuring their new rig (as Crazybc mentioned)are easily the most common PSU threads I see in the forum. I don't think it would be wise to omit those types of questions in a PSU centric section of the forum right off the get go. Rather, it seems like we are obligated to educate these members who are new to a PSUs intricacies, if a PSU section is the ultimate goal. Start their understanding off on the right foot vs. having them wade through the mish mash of bs information they are inevitably going to be exposed to on Google, Reddit and other forums.

 

[sneekypeet]

We used to have this... https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/psu-guide.39758/

panchoman did a great job of tending to the thread. One member, likely with a lot of help, but at the time it was a sticky, and was easy to find at the top of GH.

 

[maxfly]

We used to have this... https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/psu-guide.39758/

panchoman did a great job of tending to the thread. One member, likely with a lot of help, but at the time it was a sticky, and was easy to find at the top of GH.

That's exactly the type of sticky a PSU section would need IMO.

 

[Bill_Bright]

A dedicated PSU forum is essentially only a "filter" to get all PSU related threads (which exist) in one place.

Actually, no it isn't. The dedicated PSU forum would NOT be for troubleshooting potential PSU or power problems. Those would stay in the Hardware section. This is necessary, in part, because many symptoms presented with computer problems don't always appear to be PSU related. These often are not isolated to the PSU until well after troubleshooting as started. For example, sudden reboots or freezes are common symptoms of many different faults. Bad RAM, bad graphics card, bad CPU, corrupt drivers, faulty motherboard caps are all potential causes of sudden reboots or system lockups. But so is a failing PSU. Those issues should remain in the Hardware section.

 

[Onasi]

That's exactly the type of sticky a PSU section would need IMO.

But again, why make it a section though? This sticky is arguably ALL that’s needed and users can be funneled/directed there. What will even be posted, in your opinion, in the PSU section outside of this sticky except for the usual help threads?

No, I am with @Dr. Dro on this one - streamlining the forums is the way, not separating everything into smaller and smaller chunks. Because, as I mentioned, once you start, you might as well have a dedicated sub for every single thing. At least for every Review topic that currently exists.

Actually, no it isn't. The dedicated PSU forum would NOT be for troubleshooting potential PSU or power problems. Those would stay in the Hardware section.

Then you have a wasteland of a sub. Every other one does allow for troubleshooting threads for their hardware topic.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Then you have a wasteland of a sub. Every other one does allow for troubleshooting threads for their hardware topic.

And I believe (with exceptions of course) that is because those type problems typically are easily identified from the start as related to that type hardware. As I noted, computer problems caused by a flakey PSU frequently do not present themselves initially as PSU problems. Since everything inside the case depends on good, clean, stable power, it is not uncommon for a graphics card, RAM, the CPU or whatever to "appear" at fault when they are not receiving clean power.

There have been posters who RMA's their motherboard's, CPUs, RAM, graphics cards thinking they were bad, when in fact, it was the PSU all along. They then get stuck with additional shipping or restocking fees when the maker finds not trouble. I am not saying this happens all the time, but it happens.

No, I am with @Dr. Dro on this one - streamlining the forums is the way

Oh? Okay. Then why have a Graphics Cards forum? Motherboards & Memory forum? Cases, Modding & Electronics forum? Storage forum? Why not "streamline" them all into one, big fat Hardware forum?

Why have separate forums for GPU-Z, ATITool, MemTest64, NVCleanstall, ThrottleStop, Realtemp, SSD-Z, and RBE? Why also have a forum for Games? They are software! Why a General Software forum? Benchmarking? Why not lump them all under Software?

Personally, I don't see why you and others who are against this, are against it? What does it matter to you? It will not cause you more work. Nobody is making you subscribe to that forum.

 

[wheresmycar]

Actually, no it isn't. The dedicated PSU forum would NOT be for troubleshooting potential PSU or power problems. Those would stay in the Hardware section. This is necessary, in part, because many symptoms presented with computer problems don't always appear to be PSU related. These often are not isolated to the PSU until well after troubleshooting as started. For example, sudden reboots or freezes are common symptoms of many different faults. Bad RAM, bad graphics card, bad CPU, corrupt drivers, faulty motherboard caps are all potential causes of sudden reboots or system lockups. But so is a failing PSU. Those issues should remain in the Hardware section.

If someone suspects a PSU related concern, i see no harm in throwing a post up in its devoted sub. We have other existing component related threads (GPU, mobo/memory, storage, etc) which can also fall victim to suspecting one part being the culprit to find another putting the spanner in the works. If we remove the troubleshooting aspect of any part/peripheral we immediately trim the subs engagement. If the OP is seeking to address hardware issues comprehensively then no doubt the hardware sub absolutely makes sense.

 

[Onasi]

Oh? Okay. Then why have a Graphics Cards forum? Motherboards & Memory forum? Cases, Modding & Electronics forum? Storage forum? Why not "streamline" them all into one, big fat Hardware forum?

Some can be streamlined, sure. Or, if we go the opposite way, we need a sub for EVERY type of product that is discussed and reviewed on TPU. I am not sure why PSUs are special in this regard.

Why have separate forums for GPU-Z, ATITool, MemTest64, NVCleanstall, ThrottleStop, Realtemp, SSD-Z, and RBE? Why also have a forum for Games? They are software! Why a General Software forum? Benchmarking? Why not lump them all under Software?

As Dro mentioned, obsolete and no longer supported software subs can be archived. I am not sure why you are going straight for absurd options and notions. Nobody has proposed trimming EVERYTHING into one forum that I have seen.

Personally, I don't see why you and others who are against this, are against it? What does it matter to you? It will not cause you more work. Nobody is making you subscribe to that forum.

Readability, visibility and engagement. I can ask the same question though - why does it matter for PSUs to have their own sub? Is there some issue with PSU related issues being in General Hardware? Worked this way so far and people didn’t complain.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Yeah. Besides, ThrottleStop and GPU-Z are the only actively maintained software anyway. In both cases W1zzard and unclewebb respond to threads and questions posed regularly.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Gee whiz Onasi - pick one side or the other.

In your #62 post you clearly are against a dedicated PSU forum.

But again, why make it a section though?

streamlining the forums is the way

Then you thumbs up wheremycar who clearly indicates a PSU devoted sub is fine.

Now you degrade the thread with personal criticisms of the opinions of others you don't agree with, calling them absurd.

You say you don't see why PSUs are special. I say, why not? Many argue the choice of the PSU is one of the most critical purchasing decisions builders must make with new builds. And definitely the general consensus among almost all helpers is to avoid cheap, generic PSUs.

Do you see such recommendations with motherboards? Graphics cards? Storage? RAM? What makes them so special then?

Those are all rhetorical. Please don't bother answering.

Readability, visibility and engagement.

Bullfeathers!

@W1zzard - I think you have seen the arguments on both sides. I recommend this thread be closed to avoid further degradation. Then you can make the decision to have a separate forum, not have a separate forum, or have a 30 - 90 day trial period with a temporary forum and see how it goes.

Either way, I'm stepping out.

 

[Bobaganoosh]

I wish I understood the various topologies

• Buck
• Synchronous Buck
• Boost
• Inverted Buck-Boost
• Septic
• ...

lol. Not trying to nit-pick, but it's SEPIC, so that's a fun typo.

As for these, you can find a lot of information through a web search, but I'll paraphrase/over-simplify some of these while I have a few minutes and it's always a fun refresher for me.

• Buck
  • step-down converter. Uses an inductor, FET, and Schottky diode. There are losses in the diode and switching noise to counteract. Output must always be lower than input.
• Synchronous Buck
  • This uses a more advanced controller to synchronize a pair of FETS, one of which replaces the diode, removing the losses there. Still have to deal with noise and circuit layout is at least as critical, but these are super efficient step-down converters.
• Boost
  • step-up converter. Similar to buck, but it's set up differently to always boost higher (output can't be same as input)
• Inverted Buck-Boost
  • This allows you to have a variable input and always get the same output voltage. It's likely it doesn't expect the output to actively vary, but it can be set up to accept a voltage higher or lower than the output. It does, however, invert the output.
• Septic
  • This is like a non-inverting buck/boost that allows an output voltage to be the same as, higher, or lower than the input voltage. There's usually still a diode, so there are still losses involved.
• CulkĆuk
  • it's named after a person, not the bird or...other...situations...anyway, it's a different type of buck/boost that's also generally inverting and I haven't used inverting converters much, so I'm not super familiar with these. I guess they have a low ripple and continuous current, but there's a lot of stress on the switching FETs.
• Zeta
  • These can step up or down and also provide constant input/output currents, so they're good at reducing noise. They can also offer output isolation (from the input), which has advantages.
• Fly-Buck
  • This is like adding a transformer to a synchronous buck. The FETS switch in a way to alternate current into the transformer's primary, and can be timed to provide a regulated output voltage on secondary side of the transformer. Very efficient and can offer input/output isolation via the transformer.
• Flyback
  • uses a transformer with a PWM-driven FET on the primary side of the transformer (which is often just coupled inductors in this case) controlling the voltage (chopping the input DC voltage). The transformer primary inductor coil then acts as a boost or buck converter to store the energy, so the switch controls the input energy and the transformer coil ratio helps produce isolation as well as gives the ability to add a ratio multiplier to equation. You can also use this topology to provide multiple outputs (because you can have multiple secondaries) on a single input control.
• Two Switch Flyback
• Active Clamp Forward
• Single Switch Forward
• Push-Pull
• Weinberg
• Half-Bridge
  • converts AC to DC but only captures half the current (either positive or negative). This can be as simple as a diode.
• Full-Bridge
  • Converts positive and negative currents from AC into single-polarity DC. Usually uses 4 diodes, but can also be done with controlled FETs to reduce losses.
• Phase Shifted Full-Bridge
• LLC Half-Bridge
• LLC Full-Bridge

...and I'm out of time. There are tons of articles online and it is pretty interesting if you have any idea what they're talking about. What gets interesting with actual PC Power Supplies is that most of the high-end ones are using the same topologies more or less. Some will put half-bridge rectifiers in for low power rails to save money, some will cheap out on individual components or they'll have really crappy layouts that result in hot-spots, noise, or early failures. It's sometimes hard to spot that stuff with a just a topology block diagram or some pictures online. You'd have to dig into the BOM or the board layout files, and they don't just offer those up for competitive reasons. The other thing to consider is that not all circuits, topologies, or ICs are created equal. So a "buck-converter" does not always equal "a buck-converter"...you can have two that do the same thing and are described the same way, but use any number of hundreds of options of buck-converter ICs that control the switching timing and to a large extent the efficiency, noise, and reliability. Of course, the FETs, caps, diodes, and even traces all play a part, but the point is that even if the topology is identical, you can have two different designers make the same circuit, but with different parts and you'll get very different performance. Where a lot of the PSUs get really creative is the whole box layout and the circuit board interfaces they use. some of the custom bus-bar connections and whole-edge-solder-joints are kind of crazy to me, but they're pretty sweet, and it's one thing that always fascinates me from a manufacturing perspective (think about making those repeatedly lol).

 

[Shrek]

Got to hate spell correctors.

 

[Onasi]

Those are all rhetorical. Please don't bother answering.

I will still do so, actually. This IS a discussion and I’d like to use your response to extrapolate on some of my points. Whether you choose to engage further or not is your business.

You say you don't see why PSUs are special. I say, why not? Many argue the choice of the PSU is one of the most critical purchasing decisions builders must make with new builds. And definitely the general consensus among almost all helpers is to avoid cheap, generic PSUs.

That is correct. However, as you pointed out, there IS a consensus. No one really discusses PSUs because there isn’t much to discuss. If a person poses a correct question (hardware that’s planned to be used, budget and desire for overhead, if any), then it’s extremely easy to link to the Tier List, for example, and point out several widely available models as a ballpark which said person should be shopping in. That’s it.

Do you see such recommendations with motherboards? Graphics cards? Storage? RAM? What makes them so special then

Easy. All of those components have actual user-facing properties beyond “provide power”. Be it the UEFI and OC potential of the motherboards, GPU technologies and AIB partner models differences, RAM tuning potential and platform appropriate choices, SSD sustained performances and throttling - all of those differ between models, suit different peoples needs and are often actually tweakable, i.e the user actually can interact with the part, in however small capacity. There is merit to their discussion, even subjective experiences can be valuable. One does not interact with a PSU beyond setting and connecting it. Not unless one is either an electrical engineer or has a deathwish.

 

[sneekypeet]

I mean sub forums withing the main topic I can see.....

I could see adding sub headings like with the Graphis Cards section, but otherwise, meh.
Also, threads like these need a poll, makes it so much easier for W1zz to see what we all think that way.

 

[Onasi]

Yeah. Besides, ThrottleStop and GPU-Z are the only actively maintained software anyway. In both cases W1zzard and unclewebb respond to threads and questions posed regularly.

NVCleanstall too, let’s be fair.

 

[Bobaganoosh]

Got to hate spell correctors.

haha, yeah, sorry that wasn't the point of my post. I was just trying to answer some of your question, but septic gave me a chuckle.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I will still do so

Of course you will. Can't let the last word go to someone else.

No one really discusses PSUs because there isn’t much to discuss.

Total nonsense! Come on dude! You've only been posting here for a few months. Please don't pretend you speak for this site or everyone on it, or even have a clue what happens here for clearly you don't. Sadly, you believe you do since you don't even bother to check! That's sad.

"No one really discusses PSUs"? How about 12 pages of "threads" with the search string "power supply" in the title? Plus there are countless more threads where "power supply" and "PSU" are discussed in the posts within those threads.

Edit add: FTW, there are another 16 pages of threads with "PSU" in title. And all can easily see, many of those threads with "PSU" or "power supply" in the titles have dozens of replies. So to suggest "no one really discusses PSUs" is just ridiculous. Clearly, there is lots of interest in, and discussions about power supplies - with 1/2 dozen of those threads in just this last week!

Now I'm out the door to hit the bike trails so I really am stepping out of this discussion. But before I go,

Also, threads like these need a poll, makes it so much easier for W1zz to see what we all think that way.

I second that!

 

[maxfly]

But again, why make it a section though? This sticky is arguably ALL that’s needed and users can be funneled/directed there. What will even be posted, in your opinion, in the PSU section outside of this sticky except for the usual help threads?

No, I am with @Dr. Dro on this one - streamlining the forums is the way, not separating everything into smaller and smaller chunks. Because, as I mentioned, once you start, you might as well have a dedicated sub for every single thing. At least for every Review topic that currently exists.


Then you have a wasteland of a sub. Every other one does allow for troubleshooting threads for their hardware topic.

A single sticky answers every question? C'mon man.

All manner of power supply information will be shared amongst our members. That's primarily what interests Ferret and Bill.

You do realize help threads are the very reason our forum exists right? Our different sections exist to simplify the process of our members finding answers. These sections group questions together, attracting the attention of other members with similar problems, making it easier to find solutions. We HELP each other solve problems by sharing reliable information (usually).

This notion you keep expressing that TPU having a PSU section will somehow unleash an avalanche of hundreds of new sections is beyond me. Where is this coming from? No one else has mentioned anything along those lines, yet you keep bringing it up as if it's a forgone conclusion that if the PSU section is allowed to be created...poof instant and utter chaos. While at the same time flip flopping all over the place regarding anything PSU section as if arguing about it is your one and only goal...Seriously, what's up? Is there something personal between you and Bill and or Ferret? You have some unknown bone to pick? This adamant negativity bordering on outright toxicity sure makes it look that way.