Why Elden Ring doesn't impress me. Innovation in combat physics is needed in the gaming industry.

[Veseleil]

Remember Bushido Blade (1 & 2)?

Oh yes, it was the most annoyingly accurate interpretation of a cold weapon combat ever. One wrong move and you're dead. Even a wrong stance could get you killed fast. Frustrating as it can be, BB2 is the best fighting game I've ever played.

@Space Lynx properly recreated/simulated one-handed sword & shield technique in video games we probably won't see ever. The reason is dumbing down the games for the average console kid level of player, and the complexity of the said technicalities @dragontamer5788 perfectly explained (big thanks to him). Shields are good choice IRL, even some mounted warriors were using a shield along a sword, pike/halberd. There's a lot to be said about it, the Spartan group shield tactics (later largely adopted by Romans), even some archers/crossbowmen used a shield.
But unfortunately none of that shield usage was ever done right in games, even the basic one (with short sword), so If I had a choice (and screw the games that have no such choice really), I'd choose any other kind of armament combo, even the berserker style over any involving a shield option. It was always slow, underwhelming and not worth the hassle.

 

[Kapone33]

Oh yes, it was the most annoyingly accurate interpretation of a cold weapon combat ever. One wrong move and you're dead. Even a wrong stance could get you killed fast. Frustrating as it can be, BB2 is the best fighting game I've ever played.

@Space Lynx properly recreated/simulated one-handed sword & shield technique in video games we probably won't see ever. The reason is dumbing down the games for the average console kid level of player, and the complexity of the said technicalities @dragontamer5788 perfectly explained (big thanks to him). Shields are good choice IRL, even some mounted warriors were using a shield along a sword, pike/halberd. There's a lot to be said about it, the Spartan group shield tactics (later largely adopted by Romans), even some archers/crossbowmen used a shield.
But unfortunately none of that shield usage was ever done right in games, even the basic one (with short sword), so If I had a choice (and screw the games that have no such choice really), I'd choose any other kind of armament combo, even the berserker style over any involving a shield option. It was always slow, underwhelming and not worth the hassle.

Well Games back in the day were emulated from the Arcade. Ghouls and Goblins is probably hands down the most difficult video Game ever.....next to the Arcade version of Asteroids...well any version of Asteroids.

 

[Space Lynx]

So....what I'm hearing is that you want Gorn with slightly more realistic physics. That's a VR game that did arena combat...but it wasn't exactly designed to produce real fighting. The problem with that is that to then make the physics and tactics work you'll need to retool things...at which point the combat becomes less fun. Dark Souls, Elden Ring, and the like favor combat that is fun above realistic...because nobody really wants to get shredded while using a heavy sword...or have the entire screen swim about wildly because a single swipe not only cuts, but imparts enough energy to force you around.

Regarding what you want...I may be missing things. The ability to turn the shield and have it functionally trap the weapon of your opponent is very much entirely a game of timing. It's the same as using a trident/bident to disarm or control a weapon...and it's one of the reasons why swords have guards on them (otherwise each slash down the edge of a blade would slice the fingers/hand of the opponent and effectively disarm them).


I for one am happy with the results of gameified combat. If you've ever wielded a pick or maddox you'd understand that fatigue basically means you have a few swings in combat before it's impossible to do anything more than use its momentum to swing in wide arcs. That's with gardening tools, not a steel/iron sword and the like. It may sound silly, but if you really think you want combat realism go back to the PS2 era. There were quite a few games where everything had durability, status effects like bleeding or poison were a death sentence, and getting staggered on long wind-up attacks meant that while they existed in-game they were not functional. i-frames isn't exactly realism, but real combat with a stamina resource sucks.

I added it to my wishlist, thanks.

GORN on Steam

GORN is a ludicrously violent VR gladiator simulator, made by Free Lives, the developers of Broforce and Genital Jousting.

store.steampowered.com

I'm waiting on Valve's next VR hardware release before I finally give VR a go.

Oh yes, it was the most annoyingly accurate interpretation of a cold weapon combat ever. One wrong move and you're dead.

I'm not saying everything has to be hardcore, as I said before in this thread, I think we could improve combat physics and still have arcade level of fun too.

 

[dragontamer5788]

I for one am happy with the results of gameified combat. If you've ever wielded a pick or maddox you'd understand that fatigue basically means you have a few swings in combat before it's impossible to do anything more than use its momentum to swing in wide arcs. That's with gardening tools, not a steel/iron sword and the like. It may sound silly, but if you really think you want combat realism go back to the PS2 era. There were quite a few games where everything had durability, status effects like bleeding or poison were a death sentence, and getting staggered on long wind-up attacks meant that while they existed in-game they were not functional. i-frames isn't exactly realism, but real combat with a stamina resource sucks.

Note that most real weapons have excellent weapon balance and swing very nicely. Even spears. Polearms and Poleaxes are heavy of course. But you might be surprised at how light a meteor hammer or warhammer is.

Robin Swords is an expert HEMA fighter on Youtube and does a lot of weapon demonstrations. I do recommend people to visit his channel and watch his techniques.

Greatswords / Zweihanders are actually lighter than most gardening tools (!!!), and can be effectively weilded with one hand temporarily.

You'll tire out your hand if you do this technique too much, but its possible when you need that little bit of extra reach (the 2nd hand gives you a lot more strength, but you absolutely lose range, so its a tradeoff).

I've personally swung the spear with one hand as a surprise attack, and spears are a LOT larger than greatswords. I've even experimented (stupidly) with two-weapon Sword + Spear fighting because I was kinda-sorta seeing if Soul Calibur's Hildeguard had any basis in reality.

Answer: yes, you can do this. Its... uhhhhh.... very tiring. But you can go a few minutes with it for sure. I dunno about doing an entire battle over an hour, but spear in one hand + short sword in the other is surprisingly possible.

Video games kind of "lie" to you about how heavy these weapons are, because the motions in the game + the mocap actors need to "pretend" that these things have huge amounts of mass. But in reality, any weapon of war is comfortable to use in even just one hand (even two handed weapons). Weapons of war need to be swung by a human after all.

------------

The real issue is that the 2nd sword did nothing for me. Its a lot more effective to grip the spear in two hands most of the time, and use the 1-handed longspear style only as a surprise attack. If I needed a close-range weapon when the opponent got close, I can grip higher on the spear and have an effective weapon, or grip the middle of the spear and use it as a quarter-staff (illegal in my play matches as bludgeoning weapons truly hurt people. But using the butt-end of the spear as a short-weapon when the opponent closes the distance is 100% a legitimate war-move).

There's no blindspots with a spear, so there's no need to have a shortsword in a hand. Now if someone _YANKS_ the spear out of your hand (ex: you miss a one-handed lunge, the opponent then drops his weapon grabs your spear with both hands and yanks it out of your hand), you'll need a backup weapon, and a short-sword is easier to carry as a backup / sidearm. So its useful to carry a backup weapon. But as far as a "fighting style" goes, the spear is truly king by itself.

@cvaldes
You mean actual zweihanders that are more of a field anti-pike weapon here or just two-handers in general? Because depending on the specifics they can be very far from slow and ponderous. Long-swords are two handed (yes, unlike what DnD makes them out to be) and are generally rather quick and agile weapons.

Note: my play fighting group equipped smaller ladies and smaller people with longswords and longspears. Longsword is a dex weapon in reality with a ton of finesse. Its the opposite of video game world. In the real world, longer-stick moves faster because two hands on the weapon causes more leverage and more opportunities for it to swing despite smaller movements of your hands. The bigger your weapon, the faster it moves.

Japan, with its history of Samurai families and female fighters, explicitly recognizes this. The Naginata (aka: glaive in the Western world) is approximately a 6-foot long pole-blade, and is the traditional weapon for Samurai Wives to defend their families with.

You'll be surprised at how fast two hands + long stick moves. And to control fast moving sticks is not a strength thing, but instead a finesse thing.

 

[Onasi]

@dragontamer5788
I guess we can cut games some slack seeing as how, even today, many games design their sword in a way that they are hilariously, unnecessarily thick and wide (hurr-hurr, insert joke about Skyrim paddle swords). I guess if your definition of a “sword” is essentially a sharpened slab of metal then sure, it would be clumsy to wield. Hell, even on a picture of Hilde you linked (good taste, BTW, I was also a Hilde main) her short sword has much more metal than necessary. It’s not TOO bad and would probably be okay IRL, but still. Also, that guard paired with a flared decoration near the bottom part of the blade would do fuck all as an actual guard, but I digress.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Real combat with a zweihänder sword should be slow and ponderous with the wielder becoming quickly prone to fatigue. And anyone in metal armor should also plod stiffly; it's not silk lingerie. Knives should break more often, armor pieces should fall off when the leather straps used to attach them fail (from combat, poor quality, etc.).

Halberd in Half-Plate

#polearm #armor #hema #renaissance #shorts

www.youtube.com

Billhook in Half-Plate

#polearm #hema #fencing #martialarts #shorts

www.youtube.com

We have medieval training manuals of full-plate knights. The medieval knights practiced SWIMMING in full armor, in reality. There were moats in the medieval battlefield after all, so a degree of water-training while fully armored was necessary.

You actually don't slow down very much at all when in full armor. You tire out much quicker, but with some training its something your body can get used to. Medieval armor is actually lighter than a typical loadout of today's modern soldiers (Medieval Armor is ~50lbs distributed across the body, while modern soldiers could be walking with 80lbs+ of equipment).

@dragontamer5788
I guess we can cut games some slack seeing as how, even today, many games design their sword in a way that they are hilariously, unnecessarily thick and wide (hurr-hurr, insert joke about Skyrim paddle swords). I guess if your definition of a “sword” is essentially a sharpened slab of metal then sure, it would be clumsy to wield. Hell, even on a picture of Hilde you linked (good taste, BTW, I was also a Hilde main) her short sword has much more metal than necessary. It’s not TOO bad and would probably be okay IRL, but still. Also, that guard paired with a flared decoration near the bottom part of the blade would do fuck all as an actual guard, but I digress.

I was a Raphael main actually. But I still wanted to see if Hilde's technique was possible in real life, lol.

The age of Skyrim-esque Zweihanders was real though. They took that from history.

The issue is that real-life Zweihanders would be swinging that sword faster than you'd expect. The video game mo-cap actors really slow down for us.

The Zweihanders were the longest swords ever deployed to battle. It was during the landsknecht era, when frilly mercenary companies would dress in outrageous gear in the hopes of being "remembered" on the battlefield. It was basically a marketing tactic. They wanted to be remembered so that (both sides, the allies today and their enemies today) would remember them and get hired later.

As it turns out, swinging around the biggest sword on the battlefield would help you be remembered. So it was a strange era with oversized anime-style swords. But a real time period nonetheless. Guns were available so people stopped wearing armor, but Guns were so expensive that mercenary companies still used oversized weapons in practice.

Landsknecht - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Historical pieces make it clear how large the Landsknecht weapons truly were.

 

[Onasi]

The age of Skyrim-esque Zweihanders was real though. They took that from history.

Wasn’t talking about zweihanders. The iron and steel greatswords are actually some of the better weapon designs in that game. The problem was more with one handers there.
And I disagree with your assessment of zweihanders being used as a marketing tactics. It was an anti-pike weapon, essentially. And in that role it WAS an effective weapon. Even the hooks on the ricasso were more for deflecting and trapping pikes than for person on person fencing. It was the pike and shot era, after all.
You really don’t need to give me the history lesson, my dude. I am well aware of it already.

 

[cal5582]

its not that they arent capable of that level of detail. we've had dynamic combat systems for years now. the thing is theres no intuitive control scheme for it.
you have to be able to map these controls in a way that actually flows but at the same time the average normie can pick up. game devs are run by corporations and corporations arent interested in niche appeal.

honestly youd be better off taking something like blade and sorcerry and making a hardcore version with good ai.

 

[Space Lynx]

its not that they arent capable of that level of detail. we've had dynamic combat systems for years now. the thing is theres no intuitive control scheme for it.
you have to be able to map these controls in a way that actually flows but at the same time the average normie can pick up. game devs are run by corporations and corporations arent interested in niche appeal.

honestly youd be better off taking something like blade and sorcerry and making a hardcore version with good ai.

I've been thinking about this problem, I think it might be doable in a Max Payne esque slow down technique, like a button that removes functionality of your other buttons and only targets the shield, but again you would need a slow down effect to make changes to your shield before releasing that button to gain movement back to your character again.

I'm not sure though, I bet there are a lot of creative people out there that could figure it out.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

I've been thinking about this problem, I think it might be doable in a Max Payne esque slow down technique, like a button that removes functionality of your other buttons and only targets the shield, but again you would need a slow down effect to make changes to your shield before releasing that button to gain movement back to your character again.

I'm not sure though, I bet there are a lot of creative people out there that could figure it out.

So...Metal Gear: Revengeance style of gameplay, where the rapid attacks trigger something akin to a quick time event...only the quick time event would always be choosing where you slice instead of the occasional string of buttons, or "mash the A button" type things.

Oh yeah, Reveneance is a bit silly, but it and Asura's Wrath might...kind of....qualify.

 

[Space Lynx]

So...Metal Gear: Revengeance style of gameplay, where the rapid attacks trigger something akin to a quick time event...only the quick time event would always be choosing where you slice instead of the occasional string of buttons, or "mash the A button" type things.

Oh yeah, Reveneance is a bit silly, but it and Asura's Wrath might...kind of....qualify.

Well, that is just one idea, I still think someone more creative than me could do it better.

But yes, maybe like with shields, it could be a slow effect, then based on the difficulty mode you are in, the slow mode is either slower or faster. That could be cool. I want a shield with notches, so I can catch spears and twist them... hehehe

 

[Event Horizon]

Blame Hollywood (and to a lesser extent Anime) for popularizing extremely unrealistic melee/medieval combat. They're usually either too slow and telegraphed or too flashy and ineffective. Elden Ring has both issues. Stupidly slow and cumbersome swings, and rapid anime style flailing.

 

[AusWolf]

Proper combat skill gameplay should include techniques that developed naturally through history.

For example, every game I have played, from all of the God of Wars, to Dark Souls, to Elden Ring, lots and lots of games... none of them ever did shield combat right for example.

In medieval times, the round shield could be used to not just block a sword blow, but could be turned and since made of wood, catch the enemy sword on the edge, so the sword bites into the shield, you rotate the shield, then counter attack. Little details like this from actual historical combat records we have could have drastically improved many aspects of combat in modern games, not just Elden Ring imo...

I don't know, there are more examples than this, I just find it disappointing nothing has really changed, its all the same basic time this, dodge that, etc. Where as timing the shield to get the sword to bite would be similar, the difference would be in the rotation of the shield being an extra step, etc. There are a lot of combat situations (not just with the shield) where if the combat 'allowed' for one extra step, it could truly utilize "skill" as an actual term for combat in gameplay.

Thoughts? (I did play a game years ago called ExAnima https://store.steampowered.com/app/362490/Exanima/ which is to be fair trying to revolutionize combat with better physics, I know this would never work in a game like Elden Ring, I just am saying, like a hybrid format of combat of current Elden Ring meets innovative physics... does that make sense?

I agree.

The other bit I don't like is the light/heavy attack distinction. There is no such thing as a heavy attack with a sword. Try swinging it around in real life like you do in games, and you get stabbed in the face and you're dead in a fraction of a second. Swordfighting is about reflexes, precision and technique, not strength.

If one wants realistic fighting in a medieval game, there's only Kingdom Come: Deliverance, nothing else. But one needs to be ready for lots of practice in it, just like in real life.

 

[Space Lynx]

I just had another idea, the new steam controller 2 that is coming out, the concept art of it shows steam deck like trackpads. If you have ever used these trackpads before they are very intuitive (especially the OLED model Steam Deck version), there is a possibility that could be utilized to developed more in-depth control of a characters weapon.

 

[AusWolf]

I just had another idea, the new steam controller 2 that is coming out, the concept art of it shows steam deck like trackpads. If you have ever used these trackpads before they are very intuitive (especially the OLED model Steam Deck version), there is a possibility that could be utilized to developed more in-depth control of a characters weapon.

Having to focus on the trackpad for weapon movement while I'm already struggling with the sticks and buttons of the controller sounds like a nightmare to me. No, it has to be done with the mouse and keyboard.

Until someone can come up with something better, I'll stick to Kingdom Come: Deliverance offering the most realistic combat system of all games.

 

[Space Lynx]

Having to focus on the trackpad for weapon movement while I'm already struggling with the sticks and buttons of the controller sounds like a nightmare to me. No, it has to be done with the mouse and keyboard.

Until someone can come up with something better, I'll stick to Kingdom Come: Deliverance offering the most realistic combat system of all games.

I was thinking of simple stuff, like positioning a shield or rotating the shield, or maybe using the track pad to have direct control of a shield to block

Keep in mind the steam deck OLED track pad is extremely advanced, its not like any track pad you have ever used before, you would have to experience it first to know what i mean

the haptics on the track pad could be immersive for shield control as well

 

[AusWolf]

I was thinking of simple stuff, like positioning a shield or rotating the shield, or maybe using the track pad to have direct control of a shield to block

Keep in mind the steam deck OLED track pad is extremely advanced, its not like any track pad you have ever used before, you would have to experience it first to know what i mean

the haptics on the track pad could be immersive for shield control as well

I don't know... I'm getting a Deck from the missus for Christmas, so we'll see.

I still think that the keyboard and mouse are the most user-friendly input devices for first and third person games up to this day.

 

[Space Lynx]

I don't know... I'm getting a Deck from the missus for Christmas, so we'll see.

I still think that the keyboard and mouse are the most user-friendly input devices for first and third person games up to this day.

i still prefer mouse for my fps games, i 100% understand.

just some ideas is all this thread is about

also Deck OLED 512gb glossy is on sale in UK right now, its refurb edition, but valve does refurbs to make them like new basically is my understand, something to consider if she is trying to save money

 

[AusWolf]

i still prefer mouse for my fps games, i 100% understand.

just some ideas is all this thread is about

also Deck OLED 512gb glossy is on sale in UK right now, its refurb edition, but valve does refurbs to make them like new basically is my understand, something to consider if she is trying to save money

Nah, she's already got it. I told her the LCD is fine. I don't like OLED anyway because of the burn-in.

 

[TechBuyingHavoc]

If you want realistic combat, I recommend you practice the fencing arts, like sport fencing, HEMA, and other such organizations.

Video games just aren't designed for that level of granularity. A two-player fighting game provides a large amount of opportunity for footsie / mind-games with your opponent. A one-player fighting game (like Punch Out, Elden Ring, or Monster Hunter) is best when the bosses have sequences you can learn and improve against.

Its tough to strike that balance of "easy to memorize" vs "boss is too random, there's nothing to learn from them". But that's what these games really are at their core.

Exactly this. We don't have fully functional AI that act convincing as human agents (thinking and rationality but also creativity and bias all interacting in a semi-random manner that is hard to predict but also not perfect or infallible).

You can make a AI that is "accurate" vs the player and fully taking advantage of the computer's speed and accuracy but that is no fun in a video game because you will lose every time as the flesh-and-blood brain. Or you can make a AI that follows some flawed and repeatable behavior rules that are easily beatable with shortcuts or edge case situations and gamers will yell to the sky that the AI is brain-dead and not actually "intelligent".

Guess which side of the scale most developers are biased towards to avoid angering all of their customers.

 

[AusWolf]

Exactly this. We don't have fully functional AI that act convincing as human agents (thinking and rationality but also creativity and bias all interacting in a semi-random manner that is hard to predict but also not perfect or infallible).

You can make a AI that is "accurate" vs the player and fully taking advantage of the computer's speed and accuracy but that is no fun in a video game because you will lose every time as the flesh-and-blood brain. Or you can make a AI that follows some flawed and repeatable behavior rules that are easily beatable with shortcuts or edge case situations and gamers will yell to the sky that the AI is brain-dead and not actually "intelligent".

Guess which side of the scale most developers are biased towards to avoid angering all of their customers.

It's not just about angering customers. Who would want to play a game where the player loses every time because the AI is so clever? I'd say nobody.

 

[TechBuyingHavoc]

It's not just about angering customers. Who would want to play a game where the player loses every time because the AI is so clever? I'd say nobody.

Well, that is what I meant by angering customers. You will lose them for the reasons we both listed. (I was using "angering" loosely).

 

[Space Lynx]

You guys are missing some of the overarching points I was trying to make with this thread. All is well though. I recommend new readers to this thread read the first couple of pages, then quit the thread.

 

[JustBenching]

It feels and play like a 10-15 year old game. Might be a great game, but I couldn't get into it. It felt very floaty.

 

[EsliteMoby]

This upcoming medieval physic simulation caught my attention: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256270/Kinstrife/

Elden Ring is just standard slower-paced console hack n slash game