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Why everyone say Zen 5 is bad ?

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Well it probably also helps that I'm not expecting miracles, just not regressions.

Tech is always fun wish I could grab one as well don't get me wrong. Assuming it's out by the time Arrow lake is as a real release should be interesting gaming wise now at least.
 
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SL2

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in his test the 9700X went from 1% faster to 2% faster than the 7700X..... 40 game sample. AMD is claiming 5-9% depending on what paragraph of their post you read so nowhere near that at least when testing a broad range of games....
So I haven't looked this up, but did AMD use 24H2 for the 7700X as well?
 
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Such a shame. I guess I'll live without the recent performance improvement, then. :(

I was noticing on my 7950X3D games performed pretty terribly when I limited them to the frequency CCD till I updated to this windows version. Thought my 7950X3D was broken lol becuase I've used multiple 7700Xs and know how they perform more or less with 6000CL30 mem and a 4090.

So I haven't looked this up, but did AMD use 24H2 for the 7700X as well?

They used the admin account which apparently already has the branch prediction of 24H2

I mean it isn't hard to cherry pick games to come up with their numbers especially the 5% it's the 10% you'd really have to try really hard to gimp zen 4 to achieve.
 
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SL2

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They used the admin account which apparently already has the branch prediction of 24H2
Those two aren't really the same thing, right?

Admin was used for automated tests which gives a bit more gaming performance (already tested by HUB in an earlier video), whereas 24H2 improves gaming performance further.
 
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Those two aren't really the same thing, right?

Admin was used for automated tests which gives a bit more gaming performance (already tested by HUB in an earlier video), whereas 24H2 improves gaming performance further.

It's just what amd told hub that the admin account already had the branch prediction and that the 24h2 update includes them... That's at least how I understood it.
 

SL2

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It's just what amd told hub that the admin account already had the branch prediction and that the 24h2 update includes them... That's at least how I understood it.
The way I see it, running admin (the real admin lol) basically disables VBS, and HUB used admin here. 3.8% faster in 13 games compared to normal account.

Then they used 24H2 which has the new branch prediction code optimizations, which I posted in a previous page. 11% faster in 42 games compared to 23H2.


L1 showed that admin (VBS off) and 24H2 (branch prediction code optimizations) doesn't do the same thing. I don't think anyone expects it anyway, two different things.

Disabling VBS on 24H2 improves performance even further IN THIS GAME. His results varied from game to game I think.
1724723308202.png
 
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In the custom BIOS score, Wendell was playing with the CPU features and force-enabling them. No overclocking was done. Gains are...significant.

Kinda shows that there's yet more untapped performance to come and i'm not sure why it took this long for all this to surface.
 
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The way I see it, running admin (the real admin lol) basically disables VBS, and HUB used admin here. 3.8% faster in 13 games compared to normal account.

Then they used 24H2 which has the new branch prediction code optimizations, which I posted in a previous page. 11% faster in 42 games compared to 23H2.


L1 showed that admin (VBS off) and 24H2 (branch prediction code optimizations) doesn't do the same thing. I don't think anyone expects it anyway, two different things.

Disabling VBS on 24H2 improves performance even further IN THIS GAME. His results varied from game to game I think.
View attachment 360810

Disabling VBS has been a thing since W11 launched though. I've always left it enabled.


They also stated this while saying they were using an Admin account so who knows again just going by what amd is saying....
  • AMD also tests with Windows Virtualization-based Security (VBS) enabled. This is the default Windows behavior and Microsoft recommends activating VBS to improve security, however it can affect gaming performance.
 
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Does the full administrator (SYSTEM account) really escape the hypervisor though? I have my doubts it truly does, but open to being proven wrong.
 
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Does the full administrator (SYSTEM account) really escape the hypervisor though? I have my doubts it truly does, but open to being proven wrong.
It might be due to software mitigations for Spectre et al. Zen 2 onwards had hardware mitigations for Spectre so many of the software mitigations were never necessary on them. This is also the case for Intel CPUs since Alder Lake.
 
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It might be due to software mitigations for Spectre et al. Zen 2 onwards had hardware mitigations for Spectre so many of the software mitigations were never necessary on them. This is also the case for Intel CPUs since Alder Lake.
I'm really doubtful, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Also, disabling Spectre mitigations on Zen4 in linux land at least hurt, not helped the chips performance according to phoronix. So it seems (from the limited evidence at hand) chips with hardware mitigations for spectre prefer mitigations on anyways.
 
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Disabling VBS has been a thing since W11 launched though. I've always left it enabled.


They also stated this while saying they were using an Admin account so who knows again just going by what amd is saying....
  • AMD also tests with Windows Virtualization-based Security (VBS) enabled. This is the default Windows behavior and Microsoft recommends activating VBS to improve security, however it can affect gaming performance.
Ah, so that's what it is? In that case, I won't bother. The 7800X3D has plenty of performance to sacrifice for a little extra safety anyway. :)

Edit: It makes me wonder if people on Windows 10 could see a similar improvement by disabling virtualisation in the BIOS.
 
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Another thought: what about people with anything less than a 4090? Do they see improvements, too?
 

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It's just what amd told hub that the admin account already had the branch prediction and that the 24h2 update includes them... That's at least how I understood it.
You don't have to run admin to get improved branch prediction in 24H2, right? And in 23H2 it's not there to begin with, even with admin, as shown by HUB.

AMD never says you have to run admin, only to get 24H2:

For “Zen 5” users, here is our recommendation for how to unlock the best performance. Optimized AMD-specific branch prediction code will be available in Windows 11, version 24H2 in preview through the Windows Insider Program (Release Preview Channel - Build 26100) or by downloading the ISO here.

Sorry, but I really don't se how admin and improved branch prediction are tied to each other, no matter the poor choice of words AMD used. I'm not trying to mess with you lol.
I think admin was used by AMD because it was a prerequisite for automated tests (I don't remember the source), but they have to mention it becuase it can affect performance (VBS or not).


Another thought: what about people with anything less than a 4090? Do they see improvements, too?
Smaller improvements is the most probable, but who knows. I don't expect it to improve APU gaming performance. Someone will have to test it.
 
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Another thought: what about people with anything less than a 4090? Do they see improvements, too?

In the top 9 most popular GPUs of the Steam hardware survey, the RTX 3060 TI was the most powerful on the list. (for July 2024)

I've been following this for a while now, but what I see for >90% of the new games is that on Ultra settings the RTX 3060 TI usually generates less FPS than what e.g. the Intel 12700KF in this game can generate at Ultra settings. This is about average FPS and not about the 1% low values.

For average FPS, an Intel 12700KF (for the top 9 most popular GPUs) is currently a very similar experience to using the fastest gaming CPU. This is a general statement. I know you can cherry pick games where the differences are noticeable. For the largest group of gamers, you will not have a significantly different experience on an Intel 12700KF or an AMD Ryzen 9 9950X, taking into account the GPU they use.

The Intel 12700KF also has good multi-core performance. Better than the Ryzen 9600X and similar to the Ryzen 9700X. Gaming engines are also becoming better optimised to efficiently use all the cores and threads a CPU has. I assume that the Intel 12700KF will be powerful enough for gaming for a long time to come. Especially for people with 60 Hz or 75 Hz screens.

Ryzen 9600X or 9700X is also less efficient at idle than the Intel 12700KF, and most desktops are in a situation similar to idle load more than 75% of the time.

An additional issue for Zen 5 is windows 10. Windows 11 had been released on 5 octobre 2021. But you can see that in August 2024, Windows 10 still has around 65% market share. A large group of people may feel they would rather use Windows 10 than Windows 11, and they probably won't want to put together a new system until Windows 10 runs out of support in October next year.
 
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In the top 9 most popular GPUs of the Steam hardware survey, the RTX 3060 TI was the most powerful on the list. (for July 2024)
Exactly. I love it when review channels blow things out of proportion with news like "OMG, this Windows update improves performance massively", while they forget about the fact that 99.9% of people either don't have a 4090, or don't game at 1080p, and other facts like the one that you can't feel 5-10% difference in any game, ever.

Ryzen 9600X or 9700X is also less efficient at idle than the Intel 12700KF, and most desktops are in a situation similar to idle load more than 75% of the time.
While true, that can be improved by lowering the RAM clock, which isn't as bad for performance as people may think. Like I said above, you can't feel 5-10%, so why waste the Watts?

An additional issue for Zen 5 is windows 10. Windows 11 had been released on 5 octobre 2021. But you can see that in August 2024, Windows 10 still has around 65% market share. A large group of people may feel they would rather use Windows 10 than Windows 11, and they probably won't want to put together a new system until Windows 10 runs out of support in October next year.
I still won't upgrade, can't give a rat's arse whether I'm getting new updates or not. If Windows 12 ends up being good, then I'll upgrade to that. Otherwise, I'll run 10 until it doesn't run my games anymore.
 
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I still won't upgrade, can't give a rat's arse whether I'm getting new updates or not. If Windows 12 ends up being good, then I'll upgrade to that. Otherwise, I'll run 10 until it doesn't run my games anymore.

I had moved on to another OS after my first experience with windows.

It was Windows XP on a Pentium 4 computer. Anytime I tried to change the look of the system (via 3th party tools) I noticed that every few days I had a complete system crash. I think windows XP just wasn't stable on the hardware because we had a second PC with the same hardware that I hadn't changed anything on and it also crashed very frequently.

Despite having already said goodbye to windows for good after windows XP, I do have an idea of its successors since people around me use it.

Windows Vista: this was far too heavy for the hardware that was popular at the time. Like windows XP, it was also not completely stable on much of the hardware at the time.
Windows 7: I found this to be the only windows that felt professional. It was reasonably light for the hardware at the time. It was also reasonably stable and had few flaws. And I still use it now in VirtualBox, it (fully) boots in 7 seconds (login included) on FreeBSD via VirtualBox. It kind of feels then that Window 7 starts up as fast on FreeBSD as e.g. opening Photoshop on windows, which is impressive.
Windows 8: The worst UI, worse than all the UIs I have used on Linux. Many loyal windows fans dumped it as soon as possible for windows 7 or windows 10.
Windows 10: Feels a bit like they mixed the start menu of Windows 8 with the classic start menu of Windows 7/XP. I personally found this an ugly windows and didn't think it worked very well either. The UI of Windows 7 worked smoother.
Windows 11: A windows that uses a lot of RAM. I find the UI pretty OK for windows but a bit ugly and I also notice that Linux UIs perform many daily operations with fewer intermediate stops. Windows11's UI is less efficient than LXQt, KDE Plasma, Cinnamon, etc.

I used Linux for a very long time. Ubuntu 10.10 I really liked and was one of the first Linux systems I used.
The emerald themes that were available then are still not (visually) matched by other UIs I have used since then.

At one point, I had switched to FreeBSD, which I found to be similar or better than Linux in many areas. Something that bothered me was the default security. Eg Intel microcode from the CPU was not used automatically, I had to install and activate it manually.
Now I use OpenBSD which places more importance on the out-of-the-box security aspect.

What is often said about Zen 5 is that it is more stable than Intel gen 13&14. But it must be said that in experienced hands, FreeBSD and OpenBSD are more stable than Debian stable and 'any' windows. By which I mean that the Intel 12700KF on OpenBSD is more stable and reliable than Zen 5 + windows 10/11.

The ranking on stability of operating systems based on my extensive experiences.
1. FreeBSD (bspwm and Polybar)
2. OpenBSD -current (bspwm and Polybar)
3. Debian stable, GNU Guix
4. Windows and macOS (many open-source apps are very buggy on macOS)

I'm a big fan of bspwm (window manager) which feels a bit like a genius determined what the all-important features are that I will need. I think I only use the default configuration file with a few minor tweaks.
But as I use it, it makes multiple screen setups fairly redundant (or no great value).

The keybinding to switch workspaces works smoothly and very fast. It is a manual tiler so I can easily scale the ratio of windows to the size I want. I can also easily switch to floating or fullscreen modes.

What I also find very useful is that I can determine in advance whether a window will be scaled horizontally or vertically via Ctrl+Mod+h/j/k/l

I also find Ctrl+G incredibly powerful and I don't know if there is an equivalent in Windows and macOS. It swaps your current 'small tiled window' to the largest window that is open in another workspace.

There are also shortcuts to swap tiled windows directly and many other useful keybindings.

Furthermore, I have tweaked Polybar so that I can close/minimize/maximize any window with one mouse click. I have a configuration that I can no longer improve in terms of productivity and that I could reuse forever on any Unix-like system that supports bspwm. (=almost all Unix-like systems)
 
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The ranking on stability of besurin systems based on my extensive experiences:
Out of curiosity, what do you define as "stable"? Is it just uptime that you can manage?
 
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Actually Steve has been putingt Intel through the ringer on techspot and was a major AMD proponent on the 3xxx, 5xxx, 7xxx series. In fact many Intel fans consider him an AMD fan boy there.

Not sure why so many people are tossing hissy fits on Zen 5. You don't need to buy a new CPU every year. AMD doesn't owe you 15%+ gaming increase series after series. You can buy Intel, you can buy AMD, you can wait and sit out a series or two.
PERFECT!!!!
 
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Out of curiosity, what do you define as "stable"? Is it just uptime that you can manage?

What I mean by this I would describe as 'the number of times the system becomes completely unresponsive to anything you do and cutting the power is the only thing you can do to make the system available again'

My metrics.
-FreeBSD on an Intel 3240 = no incidents in over 5 years of constant and varied use
-OpenBSD on an Intel 12700KF = one incident in 8 months of constant and varied use. It was when I tried to open a 19 GB .mkv movie file with mpv media player. Maybe the resolution was not supported by mpv. Or maybe the GPU driver code had a problem with the format. I have the feeling that OpenBSD is almost as stable as FreeBSD and I can easily avoid the above incident by not opening .mkv files larger than 10 GB. This is quality that I don't need on my screen anyway.
-Linux with new kernels and Gnome/KDE Plasma are more prone to bugs.
-Debian stable has less problems with this but lags behind FreeBSD/OpenBSD -current (in package versions).
-I placed GNU Guix above Windows and macOS not because it does well in this metric where FreeBSD and OpenBSD are so good but rather for this unique feature:
Transactional upgrades and rollbacks have been a distinguishing feature of Guix since Day 1. They come for free as a consequence of the functional package management model inherited from the Nix package manager. To many users, this alone is enough to justify using a functional package manager: if an upgrade goes wrong, you can always roll back.

This feature of GNU Guix is not something that would really make FreeBSD or OpenBSD much better, since they have an unusually low number of issues after updates. But it can be an important asset for Linux/Windows/macOS users.
 
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You don't have to run admin to get improved branch prediction in 24H2, right? And in 23H2 it's not there to begin with, even with admin, as shown by HUB.

AMD never says you have to run admin, only to get 24H2:



Sorry, but I really don't se how admin and improved branch prediction are tied to each other, no matter the poor choice of words AMD used. I'm not trying to mess with you lol.
I think admin was used by AMD because it was a prerequisite for automated tests (I don't remember the source), but they have to mention it becuase it can affect performance (VBS or not).



Smaller improvements is the most probable, but who knows. I don't expect it to improve APU gaming performance. Someone will have to test it.

Not disagreeing with you and I feel AMD is full of shite as well... I'm just repeating what they are saying.

Admin account used and vbs enabled for their gaming benchmarks that tend to not make any sense anyways.

They are saying using 24H2 will reproduce the same results without the need of an admin account while performance is a lot better it doesn't change the fact that 9000 mostly performs the same as 7000 in gaming.
 

SL2

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New Windows update, new BIOS, new PCH driver. Reviewers might want to wait a bit more for a retest, unless they want to do it once a week.

Yeah Zen5 is still half baked.

 
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Case 011 Dynamic XL/ Phanteks Evolv X
Audio Device(s) Arctis Pro + gaming Dac/ Corsair sp 2500/ Logitech G560/Samsung Q990B
Power Supply Seasonic Ultra Prime Titanium 1000w/850w
Mouse Logitech G502 Lightspeed/ Logitech G Pro Hero.
Keyboard Logitech - G915 LIGHTSPEED / Logitech G Pro
New Windows update, new BIOS, new PCH driver. Reviewers might want to wait a bit more for a retest, unless they want to do it once a week.

Yeah Zen5 is still half baked.


By the time Arrow Lake comes out hopefully it's mostly baked lol.
 
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