Why everyone say Zen 5 is bad ?

[Steevo]

Sounds like I should get the download going and see if it helps. AMD.has been dragging their feet on this months drivers too, I'm guessing to get out this fix and optimize for both.

 

[SL2]

I thought they were ending support soon - October 2025.

They will, but it's still 14 months left.

Sounds like I should get the download going and see if it helps. AMD.has been dragging their feet on this months drivers too, I'm guessing to get out this fix and optimize for both.

Tom's mentioned newer upcoming drivers, I wonder if they will change the performance.

 

[phanbuey]

When 9700X compared to 7700X brings only small improvement, why 9800X3D should be much better than 7800X3D?

I am not sure that the "normal wine maturation process" includes some oversights / fails in optimising AMD products and cooperating with MS to implement some optimisations in the OS so that the CPUs work as well as they can?

That's assuming they wont find any more performance on a chip that has 10-15% higher per-core IPC and suspiciously the same multi core results across many apps even at the same wattage.

^ There is something seriously wrong there. You have single core that tops the chart, and beats the 14900K, and then loses to 7700x in multicore when 8 RL P cores with e cores off easily beat the 7700x... Also disabling SMT gives you suspiciously higher FPS -- there's still a very obvious SMT bug with these processors that when fixed either through microcode/agesa or more software patching will find another 10%+.

This is not new, and happened to Zen4 as well, most notable example being Cyberpunk:

There were a bunch of patches across softwares to bring up performance on Zen4 Ryzen CPUs... AMD finewine. When zen 4 first launched it was slower in gaming to the 12900k and matched the 5800x3d - 6 months later the 7600X was consistently beating the 5800X3D by a narrow margin. Today I would bet that margin is even wider. We're currently comparing mature zen 4 to a fresh out of the oven zen 5 without any fixes.

 

[thesmokingman]

Congrats to all Zen4 and Zen5 Gamers! I guess Zen3 as well. The update is supposed to come to 23H2 later.

Just watched the first part and had to comment that the gains are freaking INSANO!

 

[chrcoluk]

Linux patches are sent before products launches, I believe AMD would send patches to microsoft too. They for sure cannot enforce microsoft to implement them.

Funny enough, on Proxmox forums there is Ryzen complaints, things not yet implemented in the kernel, and taking several months even over a year to be implemented, FreeBSD even worse. Intel has similar issues as well. There is posts where people have to use hacks, custom kernel flags etc. to get stability and/or better capability from the chips.

I suspect this was only recently discovered by AMD, and hence the late addition, wont surprise me if there is a similar Linux patch we see later on.

 

[igormp]

Funny enough, on Proxmox forums there is Ryzen complaints, things not yet implemented in the kernel, and taking several months even over a year to be implemented, FreeBSD even worse. Intel has similar issues as well. There is posts where people have to use hacks, custom kernel flags etc. to get stability and/or better capability from the chips.

I suspect this was only recently discovered by AMD, and hence the late addition, wont surprise me if there is a similar Linux patch we see later on.

Proxmox uses older kernel versions, which often lack the new features AMD adds (and also anything else new).
AMD sends patches before launches, but those often get into mainline only really close or a bit after the actual launch, so your stable software won't get it until an year or so later.

 

[Steevo]

They will, but it's still 14 months left.


Tom's mentioned newer upcoming drivers, I wonder if they will change the performance.

What I read they had 5+% gains for a lot of titles, I wonder if the driver team was comparing the CPU gains or if they are trying to squeeze all the performance they can out.

 

[SL2]

Just watched the first part and had to comment that the gains are freaking INSANO!

It's a GPU driver level uplift, honestly.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Windows is so bloated that i'm betting every CPU is seeing a bump with the update -- they probably found a scheduler incompatibiliity on ryzen systems ot they patched in a detect for AMD and shut off one of the 12400591759 nanny threads running in the background that was throwing off the prefetcher etc. Cyberpunk did something similar with their game where SMT on AMD was busted.

Unfortunately, for AMD this does not change the Zen5 value proposition vs the 7700. 9800X3D will be a beast though.

Everyone makes fun of the Fine Wine argument - but it's kind of classic AMD at this point.

Windows still has so much fat on it.

He did test an intel cpu it didn't see gains unless like in gears 5 the perfomance seems broken in general with Zen 4/5 getting 30%+ gains lol.

He's gonna do an intel vs amd one soon with 40 games.

 

[kapone32]

I think someone has said it already but for me AMD have put themselves into a pickle. I am sure AMD looked at AM4 (in terms of updates) when they gave us these. From ( I have said it before) 1700 to 2700 is about the same IPC and 200 mhz bump in clock speed. When those CPUs launched there were no X3D chips and those chips are excellent for PC Gaming. I expect the 12 and 16 core chips to sell better than the 9700X but the MBs are not good enough. When it was AM4 we went to X470 and that meant 4.0 @x8x8, 6 SATA Ports and great I/O but you could not convince me that there is a X870E board that is better than my X670E E Strix in flexibility. These will have to drop in price to get uptake but once the next X3D chips launch you will see the sales pickup for AMD. Does not matter though as I am sure AMD sells every 7800X3D to the channel and every single APU they make is already spoken for.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

I think someone has said it already but for me AMD have put themselves into a pickle. I am sure AMD looked at AM4 (in terms of updates) when they gave us these. From ( I have said it before) 1700 to 2700 is about the same IPC and 200 mhz bump in clock speed. When those CPUs launched there were no X3D chips and those chips are excellent for PC Gaming. I expect the 12 and 16 core chips to sell better than the 9700X but the MBs are not good enough. When it was AM4 we went to X470 and that meant 4.0 @x8x8, 6 SATA Ports and great I/O but you could not convince me that there is a X870E board that is better than my X670E E Strix in flexibility. These will have to drop in price to get uptake but once the next X3D chips launch you will see the sales pickup for AMD. Does not matter though as I am sure AMD sells every 7800X3D to the channel and every single APU they make is already spoken for.

Unfornatuetly board makers did not make a whole lot of 8x/8x boards. The x470 i think has maybe the same total as x570 or double. On x570 theres only 5 boards actually wired for 8x/8x (they usually have S.LI support when they do 8x/8x) Alot are hard wired 16x/4x.

 

[R-T-B]

They will, but it's still 14 months left.

Of promised security patches, AFAIK. Not sure I'd call this a security issue.

 

[kapone32]

Unfornatuetly board makers did not make a whole lot of 8x/8x boards. The x470 i think has maybe the same total as x570 or double. On x570 theres only 5 boards actually wired for 8x/8x (they usually have S.LI support when they do 8x/8x) Alot are hard wired 16x/4x.

Exactly, for me X570S was the ultimate AM4 platform. I have the X570S Ace Max with my Mining rig ( Used to be the Gaming rig) and it is the board that replaced the 990FX Sabretooth as my ultimate favourite MB. I really do not understand the USB 4.0 push as those GPU docks cost more than a budget GPU (6600, 4060) class GPU.

 

[sLowEnd]

They will, but it's still 14 months left.

MS has explicitly said that 22H2 was the final feature update for W10. It's just minor and security updates after that until Oct 2025.

Windows 10 - release information

Learn release information for Windows 10 releases

learn.microsoft.com

 

[Dr. Dro]

Exactly, for me X570S was the ultimate AM4 platform. I have the X570S Ace Max with my Mining rig ( Used to be the Gaming rig) and it is the board that replaced the 990FX Sabretooth as my ultimate favourite MB. I really do not understand the USB 4.0 push as those GPU docks cost more than a budget GPU (6600, 4060) class GPU.

X570S is just a marketing name for passively cooled motherboards with a X570 chipset, most X570 boards require active cooling due to the X570's high TDP, it's rated for 11 watts, more than twice the amount of power the B550 and X370/X470 chipsets. USB 4.0 docks are intended for systems newer than socket AM4, you could probably buy an add-in card and retrofit into a PCIe 4.0 slot in such a motherboard, but in general, it's above its market positioning right now.

MS has explicitly said that 22H2 was the final feature update for W10. It's just minor and security updates after that until Oct 2025.

Windows 10 - release information

Learn release information for Windows 10 releases

learn.microsoft.com

And that it is, although Windows 10's kernel is the same since build 19041 (version 2004). The subsequent updates are minor rollups. On October 2025 they'll phase out 22H2 client and security updates for 1507 (original 2015 build) LTSC, followed by 1607 LTSC in 2026, 1809 in 2029 and 21H2 LTSC (22H2 enablement is not available in LTSC) by 2032. Realistically, all development and maintenance on Windows 10 will end in October 2025, drivers for older versions of Windows are made intentionally unavailable by manufacturers, as Microsoft's aggressive schedule enables them to save money on maintaining obsolete operating systems.

 

[igormp]

Unfornatuetly board makers did not make a whole lot of 8x/8x boards. The x470 i think has maybe the same total as x570 or double. On x570 theres only 5 boards actually wired for 8x/8x (they usually have S.LI support when they do 8x/8x) Alot are hard wired 16x/4x.

Yooo, I actually did that math before when I was looking for my current AM4 mobo, and while looking for a possible future AM5 one.
On AM4 we have a grand total of B550 mobos that support x8/x8, and 20+ for X570.
On AM5, we have a grand total of 11 options, with only one being B650, while all the others are x670e, so AM5 was actually a downgrade in this regard.

I really do not understand the USB 4.0 push as those GPU docks cost more than a budget GPU (6600, 4060) class GPU.

I use USB4/TB4 for my USB-C kvm switch

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

Yooo, I actually did that math before when I was looking for my current AM4 mobo, and while looking for a possible future AM5 one.
On AM4 we have a grand total of B550 mobos that support x8/x8, and 20+ for X570.
On AM5, we have a grand total of 11 options, with only one being B650, while all the others are x670e, so AM5 was actually a downgrade in this regard.


I use USB4/TB4 for my USB-C kvm switch

You might need check the back of those boards. The original msi edge wifi board i had was claimed to support 8x/8x by PC gamer, but in reality its hard wired for 16x/4x. A lot of them are like that.

I really wanted to move am5 and keep my S.L.I. setup since i could use more clockspeed for the two rtx 2080 ti. I also play a lot of older (DX11) games that can still support it. Except the masses have have their way instead. losing out choices is getting annoying.

 

[igormp]

You might need check the back of those boards. The original msi edge wifi board i had was claimed to support 8x/8x by PC gamer, but in reality its hard wired for 16x/4x. A lot of them are like that.

I took a look at this spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-cw7A2MDHPvA-oB3OKXivdUo9BbTcsss1Rzy3J4hRyA/edit?gid=2112472504#gid=2112472504

Only MSI boards in there with x8/x8 support are the x570 MEG Ace and Unify.

I really wanted to move am5 and keep my S.L.I. setup since i could use more clockspeed for the two rtx 2080 ti. I also play a lot of older (DX11) games that can still support it. Except the masses have have their way instead. losing out choices is getting annoying.

I currently have a B550 proart, and I'm planning on moving to a B650 (maybe B850?) ProArt for my dual 3090. Cheap and work good enough.

 

[kapone32]

X570S is just a marketing name for passively cooled motherboards with a X570 chipset, most X570 boards require active cooling due to the X570's high TDP, it's rated for 11 watts, more than twice the amount of power the B550 and X370/X470 chipsets. USB 4.0 docks are intended for systems newer than socket AM4, you could probably buy an add-in card and retrofit into a PCIe 4.0 slot in such a motherboard, but in general, it's above its market positioning right now.

The truth is that X570 was a regression vs X470 in terms of PCie allocation. X570S for the most part solved that but also came with way more M2 slots. The best AM4 boards in terms of flexibility are.

Asus B550XE Strix
Asus X570E Strix
MSI X470 Unify
As Rock X470 Master SLI
MSI X570 Ace Max
MSI X570S Ace Max
Asus Crosshair X370
Asus Crosshair X470

There are others but those are the boards I have used in builds that all support x8x8. With X570S you get QOL improvements like the post code led being at the top of the board. Aesthetically speaking it is the most beautiful MB I have ever seen. Show me a X570 board that has 4 M2 and 8 SATA ports.

 

[SL2]

When 9700X compared to 7700X brings only small improvement, why 9800X3D should be much better than 7800X3D?

Because the difference isn't the same? Not only because AMD said so to PCWorld.

After 13:32 -

Yes. Rumors. I know lol.

 

[jormungand]

windows !!! i dont know if im mad or happy at the same time
oh boy Microsoft!!!

 

[oxrufiioxo]

windows !!! i dont know if im mad or happy at the same time
oh boy Microsoft!!!

It is amds product though they should know if somethings going on with it all the way back to Zen3 apparently. It would be interesting to see what version of windows 11 this started with if it was from day one with Zen4 lmao so bad.

 

[R-T-B]

This might explain why my 9950x 24h2 based IoT build has seen fine performance as far as I can tell...

 

[oxrufiioxo]

This might explain why my 9950x 24h2 based IoT build has seen fine performance as far as I can tell...

in his test the 9700X went from 1% faster to 2% faster than the 7700X..... 40 game sample. AMD is claiming 5-9% depending on what paragraph of their post you read so nowhere near that at least when testing a broad range of games....

 

[R-T-B]

in his test the 9700X went from 1% faster to 2% faster than the 7700X..... 40 game sample. AMD is claiming 5-9% depending on what paragraph of their post you read so nowhere near that at least when testing a broad range of games....

Well it probably also helps that I'm not expecting miracles, just not regressions.