Windows 11 General Discussion

[Klemc]

If they have a question, they contact MS, or MS anticipates, don't they install unattended ?

 

[Onasi]

If they have a question, they contact MS, or MS anticipates, don't they install unattended ?

The idea here is that such organizations get Enterprise licenses to avoid this whole hassle, methinks.

 

[windwhirl]

It is a simple fact that there are many users on local intranets (perhaps even stand-alone systems) where the organization simply does not allow normal Internet access for security reasons. Governments do this all the time. So do utility companies, financial institutions and more. This involves millions and millions of computers - in other words, a HUGE market Microsoft is not going to shut the door on.

Yeah, but most of those are expected to be using some form of Enterprise licensing.

At least for regular consumer editions (Home and Pro, not sure about Pro for Workstations or Education versions), a Microsoft Account is required normally, and the only thing that currently works to avoid that is using the OOBE command bypass or applying the bypass directly into the setup media (with Rufus, for example).

The fake email address bypass got removed some time ago, same with the network disconnect bypass.

 

[Klemc]

The best way for Windows to fight virus would be to be written on a non-modifiable media (likee bluray), but it updates so often that it can't happen, just i idea i had once !

 

[lexluthermiester]

What's the difference between bypassing the Internet and disconnecting from it?

The fact that the installer will not proceed by simply disconnecting from the internet. The bypass must be used in addition to staying offline.

in other words, a HUGE market Microsoft is not going to shut the door on.

You'd be shocked at how insane microsoft is getting. That company is likely going to implode and maybe even take the PC industry with it.

The idea here is that such organizations get Enterprise licenses to avoid this whole hassle, methinks.

Likely that.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You'd be shocked at how insane microsoft is getting.

LOL Oh no I wouldn't. I started working closely with Microsoft ever since I started supporting secure military computers way WAY back in the 1980s with DOS. That's when I signed my very first, among many, NDAs. We even had full time MS reps on site and it was funny but sad to watch them apologize (unofficially, of course) for some of their antics. It go really bad when LANs and WANs came to the Air Force big time in the 90s and 2000s. Not just for OSs but Office products too. Then when I was a MS-MVP for 11 years I encountered many more - antics and NDAs.

No doubt, there are some things I am no longer privy to, but shocked? Nah!

I got to tell you, however. As bad a Microsoft was, Cisco, Novell, IBM and a few others were even worse.

 

[lexluthermiester]

No doubt, there are some things I am no longer privy to, but shocked? Nah!

Perhaps. I'll take your word for that one. The things I've seen going on in the last few months are next level mindless scummery.

I got to tell you, however. As bad a Microsoft was, Cisco, Novell, IBM and a few others were even worse.

Oh, I totally believe you. I lived in Utah during Novell's heyday, had to deal with their nonsense frequently. It was a misery. Dealing with IBM wasn't much better.

 

[R-T-B]

It is a simple fact that there are many users on local intranets (perhaps even stand-alone systems) where the organization simply does not allow normal Internet access for security reasons. Governments do this all the time. So do utility companies, financial institutions and more. This involves millions and millions of computers - in other words, a HUGE market Microsoft is not going to shut the door on.

For them there are enterprise SKUs.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yes, enterprise SKUs are often used, but not everywhere. And for sure, Internet access still, to this day, is not everywhere either.

The things I've seen going on in the last few months are next level mindless scummery.

Mindless? Not even. There definitely is a plan behind it. Scummery? Perhaps. I certainly will admit, for some of their tactics it sure seems that way.

But are they really any different from essentially any other business trying to turn a profit?

That said, what about Symantec/Norton? Look at that big yellow banner! How "scummery" is Norton being with their scheme to lure Kaspersky users their way? What about Adobe? Oracle? Intuit/TurboTax just to name a few. Those companies have (or allegedly have) actively frauded their own customers!

Has Microsoft really tried to rip you off? I'm not talking about anecdotal examples of individual stupidity - like an inept tech support person. I am talking about company policy designed to rip their customers off?

I have to ask, when was the last time you paid for Windows? With most of our computers here, we got W10 free. And W11 was a free upgrade for every one of our W10 computers - all 100% legal.

If you did have to pay for it, maybe for a brand new build, did it cost a fortune?

I note Windows XP Home cost $199 ($99 if upgrading from W98). And Windows XP Pro cost $299 ($199 if an upgrade). Note with inflation, XP Home today would cost $353 and Pro would be $530.

Yet today, if you had to buy a new license for a new build, W11 Home is $139. W11 Pro is $199. Are those prices a rip-off? I don't see it that way.

I do get it. I've been complaining about the misguided Microsoft marketing weenies and many of their executive decisions for decades. But sometimes user complaints and MS and Windows bashings make me think of a homeless person refusing a handout of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich because it had grape jelly on it instead of strawberry.

Having said all that - I certainly may end up being proven wrong in the long run and I say that simply because of what Lex and others, including myself, have said about past MS marketing weenies and past executive decisions. But if MS does force users to have an internet connection just to install W11, or force users to use a MS account and block the use of Local accounts, they will lose sales. And that will get their attention.

BTW, I do NOT have a problem requiring access to a network that has access to the internet. That is, after all the most efficient and fastest way to get updates - particularly security updates (regardless your security solution of choice). It is just during installation and initial setup that I believe is the big issue - at least for me.

 

[lexluthermiester]

That said, what about Symantec/Norton? Look at that big yellow banner! How "scummery" is Norton being with their scheme to lure Kaspersky users their way? What about Adobe? Oracle? Intuit/TurboTax just to name a few. Those companies have (or allegedly have) actively frauded their own customers!

I know you're being sincere, however, this is a rabbit hole I have no interest in. We could go on for month's like this. It would get very off topic..

BTW, I do NOT have a problem requiring access to a network that has access to the internet. That is, after all the most efficient and fastest way to get updates - particularly security updates (regardless your security solution of choice). It is just during installation and initial setup that I believe is the big issue - at least for me.

This is where we disagree. There are MANY situations where stand-alone, network-less operations are needed and they're much more common that you might suppose. The powers at microsoft need to remember this fact.

I have to ask, when was the last time you paid for Windows? With most of our computers here, we got W10 free. And W11 was a free upgrade for every one of our W10 computers - all 100% legal.

2 days ago. Windows 11 Pro.

W11 Pro is $199.

I paid less, but not far off.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I know you're being sincere, however, this is a rabbit hole I have no interest in. We could go on for month's like this. It would get very off topic..

Totally agree - just pointing out there's a lot of evil out there, and MS is not the worst among them - by a long shot. Greedy? Perhaps. But not evil as many want us to believe.

This is where we disagree. There are MANY situations where stand-alone, network-less operations are needed and they're much more common that you might suppose. The powers at microsoft need to remember this fact.

We don't really disagree. In fact, your point totally reinforces what I said just yesterday in post #5,200 when it comes to "installing" Windows. In fact, I also specifically mentioned "stand-alone" systems and where internet access is not even allowed. So no, I am very aware of how common that is.

But to clarify my personal position, once installed, "I personally" don't have a problem requiring internet access to keep "my" systems current. For those as you describe, then I agree - there should be a procedure in place where those people can obtain critical updates via different, closed, and secure channels. Does that mean flash drives via certified, signature required, briefcase handcuffed to arm, licensed-to-kill, secret agent carrier? Perhaps.

As far as you buying Windows just 2 days ago, I suspect (1) you are nearly alone among those reading and (2) it was for a new build, not an upgrade from earlier Windows - and that only makes sense since new computers require new licenses. Still, if you paid less than $199 for a Pro license, one could argue you got a pretty good deal considering that is $100 less than XP Pro cost from more than 20 years ago. What inflation?

 

[lexluthermiester]

We don't really disagree. In fact, your point totally reinforces what I said just yesterday in post #5,200 when it comes to "installing" Windows. In fact, I also specifically mentioned "stand-alone" systems and where internet access is not even allowed. So no, I am very aware of how common that is.

Ah, ok! No worries then.

As far as you buying Windows just 2 days ago, I suspect (1) you are nearly alone among those reading and (2) it was for a new build, not an upgrade from earlier Windows

Of those of us reading this article? Sure. I am regularly buying OEM and Retail copies of Windows for clients. It's about a 50/50 spread of people wanting a cheap digital copy VS a solid physical copy. The trend for Windows 11 has been surprising as more people seem to be going back to the desire for a physical copy. With Windows 10, it was much less. Not sure what's driving that trend.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I always prefer having a physical copy. In fact, I prefer optical disk to flash drive. But that's the touch of Luddite in me.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I always prefer having a physical copy. In fact, I prefer optical disk to flash drive. But that's the touch of Luddite in me.

It's also a touch of practicality. Regardless of it's perceived age, it's still an amazingly useful data storage medium.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Well, I know the data on optical disks, especially "burned" (as opposed to "pressed") disks, does degrade over time. But personally, I have never encountered one. And of course, they can be scratched but I have found a dab of white toothpaste ("paste" not gel) and a good circular rubbing with your thumb does a great job of polishing most scratches out (if not too deep). FYI, toothpaste and thumbs work great on watch crystal scratches too.

But I have encountered more thumb drive failures than I can remember. I don't trust them for any type of long-term storage.

 

[SL2]

Does W11 download crap apps after setup just like W10?

That alone is a reason to unplug the cable (even if using a MS account), although I don't know if that works on W11.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Does W11 download crap apps after setup just like W10?

Yes it does, unless you opt out and block it.

 

[theFOoL]

You can use ChrisaTitians tool to remove all apps though (on my phone so I'll link the cmd when I edit) - use powershell "Admin"

iwr -useb https://christitus.com/win | iex

 

[eidairaman1]

Yes it does, unless you opt out and block it.

My ex gfs rig I built Christmas 2021 is still going with the og version of W11 (OEM DVD) I killed Windows Update completely. I would suggest using powershell to install only security updates

 

[AleXXX666]

Well, I know the data on optical disks, especially "burned" (as opposed to "pressed") disks, does degrade over time. But personally, I have never encountered one. And of course, they can be scratched but I have found a dab of white toothpaste ("paste" not gel) and a good circular rubbing with your thumb does a great job of polishing most scratches out (if not too deep). FYI, toothpaste and thumbs work great on watch crystal scratches too.

But I have encountered more thumb drive failures than I can remember. I don't trust them for any type of long-term storage.

I have never experienced with original bought software, but have had issues with self-recorded media.

 

[Klemc]

I have never experienced with original bought software, but have had issues with self-recorded media.

I remember have seen film protectors for DVD-R, long ago, pre-cut , but i doubt it's as protected as the ones sold for movies/softwares, they are indestructible lol.

 

[eidairaman1]

I have never experienced with original bought software, but have had issues with self-recorded media.

Get bad recordings from time to time

 

[Bill_Bright]

I have never experienced with original bought software, but have had issues with self-recorded media.

That's typical. Pre-made software disks (and music CDs and movie DVDs and Blu-rays) are actually "pressed" very much like vinyl records. So the 1s and 0s are essentially permanent and physical variations (lands and pits) "stamped" into the recording layer. Time does not cause those 1s and 0s to fade away or change but rather time can simply degrade the materials in the disk itself. But if properly stored, it takes time a long time to do that - like decades.

The data on writable disks is stored on a "dye" layer. The laser heats up and alters the appearance of the dye in precise locations to make those locations more or less reflective. Reflective would represent 1s, non reflective 0s (or the other way around, I forget!). Where there is data, it appears darker, thus the expression to "burn" a disk. Time is able to alter the appearance of that dye and so writable media may lose its data integrity in a few years.

Get bad recordings from time to time

Yeah, just like vinyl records, there can be a bad "pressing" at the factory. And since it would be cost-prohibitive to perform quality assurance tests on each and every disk before it leaves the factory, some escape and end up in the unlucky hands of the consumer. At that point the consumer better hope they don't scratch the disk or else they will have a hard time getting a free replacement.

 

[eidairaman1]

That's typical. Pre-made software disks (and music CDs and movie DVDs and Blu-rays) are actually "pressed" very much like vinyl records. So the 1s and 0s are essentially permanent and physical variations (lands and pits) "stamped" into the recording layer. Time does not cause those 1s and 0s to fade away or change but rather time can simply degrade the materials in the disk itself. But if properly stored, it takes time a long time to do that - like decades.

The data on writable disks is stored on a "dye" layer. The laser heats up and alters the appearance of the dye in precise locations to make those locations more or less reflective. Reflective would represent 1s, non reflective 0s (or the other way around, I forget!). Where there is data, it appears darker, thus the expression to "burn" a disk. Time is able to alter the appearance of that dye and so writable media may lose its data integrity in a few years.

Yeah, just like vinyl records, there can be a bad "pressing" at the factory. And since it would be cost-prohibitive to perform quality assurance tests on each and every disk before it leaves the factory, some escape and end up in the unlucky hands of the consumer. At that point the consumer better hope they don't scratch the disk or else they will have a hard time getting a free replacement.

It's why everything is made in batches

 

[P4-630]

Once I bought a new OEM 8.1 OS DVD and it had scratches from the factory....