I see nothing wrong if lootboxes exist for cosmetics, even if they are paid for material. No one forces you to pay a cent for them if the game works the same without it. And most games of such sort have occasional free drops so you still get some cosmetics entirely free.

But when lootboxes and tokens affect your leveling, your character selection when they have different play perks and so on, that is something I'll never be fine with.

For example, Killing Floor 2 works fine with loot stuff. Same with Quake Champions. I didn't pay a think and probably never will and I already got quite few visually really epic items. There is also a limit with ability to make custom modes, but I'm fine with that. The modes I can play are no different for me than for everyone else. And for the champions, I'm just gonna grind for them with Favr points. I'm very close to unlocking another one and one more in 2 weeks time. 8 weeks for free unlock of extra champion ain't that bad if you don't want to pay a thing.

Anyway, bottom line is, if Forza had only cosmetics, I don't really see a problem. But if they kept cars or car performance upgrades behind loot walls, then it's nice they removed that. I've hated NFS Payback because performance upgrades were stuck behind stupid absurd loot box grinding that sucked all fun out of the game...

I don't know @RejZoR - it's one of those "give an inch take a mile" or "if you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk" thing for these developers.

If people want to pay for visual updates, that's their own prerogative and no one is going to stop them. But I think it's pretty shitty on the developers side to offer anything behind extra pay walls or microtransactions. Kids these days have no mind to avoid impulse buying for something they really want. What's $2 here and $2 there?

Kind of like those people that live to gamble. They play to get that rush of endorphins from winning....they keep at it until they win again.
Or kind of like those people that love to shop. It makes them feel good.
Some kind of habit forming need that makes you feel good - people will dump tons of cash simply to have a toon that looks different because it makes them feel "important" or "different" and that's what the developers know and wish to take advantage of. We let the developers know they can be okay with the extra microtransactions that people will dish tons of cash out for, what's to keep them from finding other ways to dig deeper or going back to shady loot box tactics?

If they simply offered visual drops based on goals earned through gameplay and nothing else, that would be ideal. Cut out the extra money gouging and let people enjoy a game they already paid for.

"Some developers have taken steps to remove them from their games entirely - such as Monolith Studios' Middle-Earth: Shadow of War"

I didn't buy Shadow of War because of the loot box crap they put in the game. I stopped following the game once I heard about it. I didn't know they were working on or may have already pulled the loot box paid aspect out of the game. If that is the case I may look into picking up a copy.

STAR TREK ONLINE should also remove their lootbox system. Its out of controll. The chances are small and the grand prices worth 200+dollars which addicted players paying out fast. The company getting more richer and richer and all the new content is about teasing the new lootbox crates contet which coming out more and more frequently. They destroyed that game with that greedy system..

Removing them off their games is a good start. Everyone wants perma rewards, not something that's been given at random.

StartrekfanSTAR TREK ONLINE should also remove their lootbox system. Its out of controll. The chances are small and the grand prices worth 200+dollars which addicted players paying out fast. The company getting more richer and richer and all the new content is about teasing the new lootbox crates contet which coming out more and more frequently. They destroyed that game with that greedy system..

In all fairness if you see what you're seeing over there, run away fast. Its beyond saving because the whole business model is based on the lootboxes. Been there done that, won't change and if you think it does, you're living a delusion.

neatfeatguyI don't know @RejZoR - it's one of those "give an inch take a mile" or "if you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk" thing for these developers.

If people want to pay for visual updates, that's their own prerogative and no one is going to stop them. But I think it's pretty shitty on the developers side to offer anything behind extra pay walls or microtransactions. Kids these days have no mind to avoid impulse buying for something they really want. What's $2 here and $2 there?

Kind of like those people that live to gamble. They play to get that rush of endorphins from winning....they keep at it until they win again.
Or kind of like those people that love to shop. It makes them feel good.
Some kind of habit forming need that makes you feel good - people will dump tons of cash simply to have a toon that looks different because it makes them feel "important" or "different" and that's what the developers know and wish to take advantage of. We let the developers know they can be okay with the extra microtransactions that people will dish tons of cash out for, what's to keep them from finding other ways to dig deeper or going back to shady loot box tactics?

If they simply offered visual drops based on goals earned through gameplay and nothing else, that would be ideal. Cut out the extra money gouging and let people enjoy a game they already paid for.

"Some developers have taken steps to remove them from their games entirely - such as Monolith Studios' Middle-Earth: Shadow of War"

I didn't buy Shadow of War because of the loot box crap they put in the game. I stopped following the game once I heard about it. I didn't know they were working on or may have already pulled the loot box paid aspect out of the game. If that is the case I may look into picking up a copy.

It's disturbing how exploitative the whole thing is. I know people that have spent hundreds of dollars on skins/microtransactions but won't upgrade their hardware in spite of wanting to.

That's the sort of people we call idiots, but I might offend someone...

RejZoRThat's the sort of people we call idiots, but I might offend someone...

It is not completely true. Some people are just vulnerable to such exploits due to physiological reasons. You can call alcoholics and drug addicts idiots, but it's not the reason to let it be sold in every supermarket.
If I, for example, am totally aware of native americans weakness to alcohol, selling it to them in excessive amount will be the same kind of exploit. You might think that gambling is something totally different,
but as it was already said, some people are easily hooked up on such kind of thrills.

I just want to be able to earn certain cars instead of paying an extra $40 for the rest of the cars.

When you buy a car pack they just hand you one of each new car. I want to earn those cars instead of just getting them handed to me because I paid real cash which is the ONLY option. Let me unlock them by playing the game then pay for them with earned in-game currency. I know they are a business first but you have too be able to keep your customer to stay a business.

Tsukiyomi91Removing them off their games is a good start. Everyone wants perma rewards, not something that's been given at random.

And when you get your desired lootbox gear it will be obselite in 2 weeks.. very sad that people can be manipulated like this and this will make companies build upon this business model..

RejZoRI see nothing wrong if lootboxes exist for cosmetics, even if they are paid for material.

There should be no gambling. If you want a specific cosmetic that they decide to pay wall, you should be able to pay for it and get it.

The overwhelming feedback has been that this system feels out of place in the game.

Gambling doesn't belong in games that aren't of the casino genre.

neatfeatguyI didn't buy Shadow of War because of the loot box crap they put in the game. I stopped following the game once I heard about it. I didn't know they were working on or may have already pulled the loot box paid aspect out of the game. If that is the case I may look into picking up a copy.

There's still a lottery element to it but there's no money changing hands for it. I'm playing the game now and I don't have a problem with what I see currently in the game.

Well, it'll be their loss in the end if you can't pick exactly what you like. In Killing Floor 1 I've bought basically all character packs. Because I wanted them and felt good extra supporting the devs. In Killing Floor 2, I haven't spent a single cent on lootboxes. I did pay few € for second hand skins from market that people got from lootboxes. But there, I basically supported ppl who were selling them, not the devs directly.
But I guess there is enough idiots who buy them en mass that they still push this loot stuff.

I'd probably spend tons of cash on items I specifically want, but won't because I hate paying and then getting something random for it. So, in a way I agree with you, but at the same time I also disagree :D

Luckily, I haven't devoted enough time to feel compelled for new cars just yet (but I do own Forza 7... I had to have at least one racing game on Windows.. so I figured I'd just stick with MS since I already played these on Xbox up to 5).

I sincerely hope this trend continues across the industry, I'm personally sick of sp games now requiring Internet access to facilitate this predetory artificially flawed grindfest that adds little if not any gameplay value and at times punishes the gamer degrading experience if ignored.

This game closes randomly and stutters I would not even give 5€ for this game.
AI is stupid after rewind and again there is no pc games whit ps4 controller support only random weather is something new. If someone haw free money they can give to devs.

ReadlightThis game closes randomly and stutters I would not even give 5€ for this game.
AI is stupid after rewind and again there is no pc games whit ps4 controller support only random weather is something new. If someone haw free money they can give to devs.

It's not "AI" per se, but a hybrid collected from player data (your "Drivatar").. but yeah, it needs work.

As for PS4 controllers, don't expect a Microsoft specific/Xbox game to care. But you will found PC games that can be configured for it. Steam recognizes PS4/Xbox as well as it's own Steam controllers.

RejZoRI see nothing wrong if lootboxes exist for cosmetics, even if they are paid for material. No one forces you to pay a cent for them if the game works the same without it. And most games of such sort have occasional free drops so you still get some cosmetics entirely free.

But when lootboxes and tokens affect your leveling, your character selection when they have different play perks and so on, that is something I'll never be fine with.

For example, Killing Floor 2 works fine with loot stuff. Same with Quake Champions. I didn't pay a think and probably never will and I already got quite few visually really epic items. There is also a limit with ability to make custom modes, but I'm fine with that. The modes I can play are no different for me than for everyone else. And for the champions, I'm just gonna grind for them with Favr points. I'm very close to unlocking another one and one more in 2 weeks time. 8 weeks for free unlock of extra champion ain't that bad if you don't want to pay a thing.

Anyway, bottom line is, if Forza had only cosmetics, I don't really see a problem. But if they kept cars or car performance upgrades behind loot walls, then it's nice they removed that. I've hated NFS Payback because performance upgrades were stuck behind stupid absurd loot box grinding that sucked all fun out of the game...

+10000

RejZoRI see nothing wrong if lootboxes exist for cosmetics

I would have to agree. It is a consumers decision to pay the money and if that purchase doesn't give him a performance advantage over other players then there isn't anything wrong with it.

If anything it gives companies incentive to give their games more flair by creating so many cosmetics for us to customize the look of our gaming experience.

FxI would have to agree. It is a consumers decision to pay the money and if that purchase doesn't give him a performance advantage over other players then there isn't anything wrong with it.

If anything it gives companies incentive to give their games more flair by creating so many cosmetics for us to customize the look of our gaming experience.

I'm even against "flair" at this point. Because it's largely the main way companies seem to add "value" to their base games these days. It's cheaper than expansions and or even short story DLCs.. but seemingly makes as much or more cash. I'd prefer this trend go away.. and gamers demand more.

Well, you can' tcure stupidity. That has been proven many times, especially with lootboxes. People bitch when game costs 60€ and is a high quality package, but they feel no problem paying 10x more for bunch of dumb loot boxes on top of a usually quite mediocre game.

Haha.. I seem to remember DAI actually sold story DLC BUT... seperated the flair/armor DLC for a seperate purchase! Even though the armors only matched the content of the DLC (first story was Avvar/barbarian stuff.. and the second story had those Qunari dudes.. but they seperated the Avvar and Qunari armors for a different purchase).

That might take the cake of the most scummy thing I've seen.. outside of outright lootboxes (which it had also.. in it's MP feature).

But I'm kind of getting off the point.

StrayKATIt's cheaper than expansions and or even short story DLCs.. but seemingly makes as much or more cash. I'd prefer this trend go away.. and gamers demand more.

In many gamer's mind, the cosmetics add value especially when it doesn't take away from DLCs and any other expanded content. Some games have this concept down and it is a fine experience for all. Prime example: DotA.

FxIn many gamer's mind, the cosmetics add value especially when it doesn't take away from DLCs and any other expanded content. Some games have this concept down and it is a fine experience for all. Prime example: DotA.

That especially puzzles me. Because I was going to rant that this may be a console gamer specific thing.

But since you mention Dota, it seems even PC gamers are susceptible to bells and whistles. Which is pretty pathetic, in my mind. Because their machines are capable of adding so much more to a game, outside of flair. With a console gamer, I can almost understand. Their machines are crap and they don't know any better. They convince themselves into becoming satisified with superficial improvements to their games. Don't understand why a PC gamer would ever tolerate it. Their games are already being gimped and dragged down as it is.

StrayKATThat especially puzzles me. Because I was going to rant that this may be a console gamer specific thing.

But since you mention Dota, it seems even PC gamers are susceptible to bells and whistles. Which is pretty pathetic, in my mind. Because their machines are capable of adding so much more to a game, outside of flair. With a console gamer, I can almost understand. Their machines are crap and they don't know any better. They convince themselves into becoming satisified with superficial improvements to their games. Don't understand why a PC gamer would ever tolerate it. Their games are already being gimped and dragged down as it is.

Since when was bells and whistles a bad thing? Superficial is the wrong term when many people appreciate how it makes them feel attached to the virtual character they are playing. Make no mistake, all gamers are playing with "superficial" digital media when the majority of the world doesn't and feel we are wasting our time.

I am no one to judge other people in how they spend their time or how they like their characters to look with extra flair when they do so.

Again, as long as it doesn't detract from the functionality of the game or provide an advantage, it is an added value for those that wish to partake.

FxSince when was bells and whistles a bad thing? Superficial is the wrong term when many people appreciate how it makes them feel attached to the virtual character they are playing. Make no mistake, all gamers are playing with "superficial" digital media when the majority of the world doesn't and feel we are wasting our time.

I am no one to judge other people in how they spend their time or how they like their characters to look with extra flair when they do so.

Again, as long as it doesn't detract from the functionality of the game or provide an advantage, it is an added value for those that wish to partake.

Since I don't even play Dota.. or much multiplayer, I'll make some exceptions to want to personalize yourself in that setting. But even then, I'm not sure why it should cost you.. considering the flexibility of character creation these days.

Mostly though, I'm concerned with single player, and would prefer more story and level content and the revival of Expansions. And I want WORLDS to be richer and bigger.. not just details. I'd trade 100 armors any day for a huge open space.. and with cities bigger than 8 houses.... resembling one of those toy sets from Legos I used to play with.