R-T-BIf they are somehow making a per-download kickback at the ms-store, perhaps it could. But I kind of doubt that...

I doubt it too.

R-T-BOneMoar and I have a mutual "mess with each other" relationship. He knows this and I know this. None of that was a personal attack. :)

Seemed like an attack from the outside.

Ah shucks, I wanted to post this on the last page :ohwell:

newtekie1Except EULA and Terms of Service are contract law, and in contract law you are not required to abide by the contract if you aren't aware of the contract and agree to it. Otherwise, I'd be able to just make up a contract saying you are required to give me all your worldly possessions, then sue you to enforce it without you ever even knowing what I put in the contract.

Again, we're discussing some basic aspects of living in 2019, not this particular case.
Whenever you sign a contract, be it installing programs or getting a mortgage, you're required to confirm that you've read it and you agree with the terms. Check it.

lexluthermiesterUnenforceable in the United States, unless they come here, even with existing treaties. They're not going to do that.

So again, POV of someone who finds ways to bend law and benefit. If only your theories were correct...
Now you moved to another one: I'm a USA citizen, I can do whatever I want in other countries, because they won't bother going after me. Excellent.

More importantly, why are we talking here about law technicalities? Especially since you're really wrong about most things.
This is a PC enthusiast forum. Why can't you simply show some respect to a fellow member of the "PC community"?
Maxon is not trying to take something from you. They simply want to control how their software is distributed.

hatI'll admit I didn't know that. But then, how would they keep track of who owns what? A separate "Windows Store" account that is technically not a Microsoft account?

Why would they need to track anything? It's just a repository.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure they have access to your windows key.

I don't think it cost them anything when TPU et al. were hosting it either. In fact, you yourself mentioned it actually costs them something to put their stuff on the Microsoft store. That may well be cheaper than hosting it themselves on their own site (especially if they did so exclusively), but I doubt W1zzard was ready to send them a bill for hosting their benchmark here. Of course, relying on TPU and other sites like ours to host it would be a fantastically bad way to reach their "intended audience", so I agree that the Microsoft store would help them there, if they want to do it in a cheap way. Why they want it exclusively at the Microsoft store, and are actively enforcing this remains a mystery to me, but they can do as they please with their software.

You have to at least consider a theory that Maxon just doesn't give a f... whether gamers use this benchmark or not. They have nothing from it other than exposure. What could be the ratio of Cinebench users that are gamers and 3D artists (not even clients of Maxon)? 10000:1 seems like a safe bet.
Sure, one can believe that a gamer will choose Maxon software because they know this brand from a benchmark (which I find funny, honestly).
But this exposure had negative results as well. Like accusations of being biased for one company or another. Or e-mails with suggestions from gamers that are just spam in their corporate e-mail.
Gaming community is a lot less mature than the people Maxon usually works with.

Maybe at some point Maxon gives an official response. Maybe they'll allow portable versions and sharing.
But it's more likely they don't care at all and even don't follow this whole shitstorm. :)

As for the repositories comment... I can't speak much for Linux, as I haven't used it much, but I do remember using the repository for a few things, mostly because it was easier than installing software the "normal way" in Linux. It's a lot more complex than Windows. iOS, as I'm sure you're aware, is a walled garden, and while this is is a whole different debate, they do get a lot of criticism for that because it does limit choice.

I got used to the Play Store on Android because, well, that's just how Android (mostly) works. I've also done a ton of things without the Play Store. As for my PC, though, I've never considered the thought of such a central app repository. If I was interested in some software, I went to their site and got it. The closest thing I use to anything like that on PC is Steam... which I don't think quite qualifies as being similar to the Play Store, or the Microsoft store.

So, you're criticizing Windows Store, because you're not used to using repositories and software managers which... actually are the "normal way" in the computing world. Manual installing using files you have to download from the net is a very weird approach, very specific to Windows.
And I can already tell you that moving to repositories / software managers is the direction Windows will be taking in the next decade. This is what a big chunk of Windows users expect, but also what the new generation of clients is used to (those that have grown up with a smartphone). And it's easier, and safer. And it results in less mess in the OS.

If you don't use Linux and haven't had much experience with software managers, try chocolatey. Maybe it'll convince you. Or maybe it won't. Either way, you'll at least know how working with Windows may look like 10 years from now.
And it's not like you can say "I don't like it, I'm leaving MS" because, as I said, this is how every other remotely mainstream OS works.

I was mailing Maxon that i can't download Cinebench R20 with Windows 7. I don't want to create a Microsoft account, but i have to, to get Cinebench with Windows 7 using the MS store via Website.

They didn't answer my question if the minimum specs are Win7, as statet on Maxons website, or Win10 as stated in the Win10 store.




Tanslation:

Dear Mr. --------

Cinebench is currently only available via the stores (Microsoft and Apple store), but it is planned to offer a direct download on our website (Maxon website).
Please excuse the delay.

Kind regards,
Sandro Wojcik

AerpoweronCinebench is currently only available via the stores (Microsoft and Apple store), but it is planned to offer a direct download on our website (Maxon website).
Please excuse the delay.

OMG. You had an issue with software and you asked the authors for help instead of sharing your hatred on forums. What a weird idea.

@hat it seems there will be a direct download possibility. Enough for you? :-)

Thanks, notb :)

Asking does not hurt, worst case you can get is a "NO".

Going crazy and writing if they possibly offer a portable version as well. And bringing up the article from Techpowerup. I just want to let the left hand know what the right one is doing :D

Just as an idea, Cinebench R15 exists on NuGET/Chocolatey, an absolutely wonderful tool to manage free Windows software very easily and almost automatically.
Basically, it's the "Microsoft Store" but without accounts and working on all recent windows OS'es (Vista and up).

It's still fairly unknown to the large populace at this point, and the list of offered software caters more towards developers/content creators, but there are plenty (and growing) number of packages available.

For example Wizzard's GPU-Z is on the platform (not sure if managed by Wizzard himself or someone else is).
I like this platform because it's community driven, not owned by one specific megacorporation (like MS, Apple, Google with their respective stores)

Going back to MAXON, when they do decide to offer a standalone version, someone in contact with them should point them towards offering it on Chocolatey as well.

AerpoweronI was mailing Maxon that i can't download Cinebench R20 with Windows 7. I don't want to create a Microsoft account, but i have to, to get Cinebench with Windows 7 using the MS store via Website.

They didn't answer my question if the minimum specs are Win7, as statet on Maxons website, or Win10 as stated in the Win10 store.




Tanslation:

Dear Mr. --------

Cinebench is currently only available via the stores (Microsoft and Apple store), but it is planned to offer a direct download on our website (Maxon website).
Please excuse the delay.

Kind regards,
Sandro Wojcik

Good job! This is exactly what I said people should do if it truly concerned them.

Just got another reply from Maxon support:

A portable version is either planned nor allowed, as far as the support person knows. But he has no detailed information about that.





Wavetrex, thanks for the info about the NuGET/Chocolatey software. I'll take a look at it and see if i can recommend it to the support person. I think i am in level 1 support so far. So don't get your hopes up. I won't recommend it, when cinebench R15 is not directly from Maxon released on there.
I am also thinking about to ask my way up, why they won't allow a portable version. Would be nice to know the reason behind that.

Anyways, bed time for me now. I should be asleep for hours by now...

I hope TPU staff is following this thread. They could learn a lot from a forum member with 29 messages. :-)

AerpoweronI won't recommend it, when cinebench R15 is not directly from Maxon released on there.

Correct. Package is maintained by "a bloke" and there is no information that it's an official download location supported by Maxon.
Maxon own EULA is very similar to that of Windows Store. No modifying, no sharing. Basic stuff.
All pre R20 standalone versions were just as illegal as the one discussed now. It's just that Maxon hasn't bothered (or hasn't noticed).

notbAnd I can already tell you that moving to repositories / software managers is the direction Windows will be taking in the next decade. This is what a big chunk of Windows users expect, but also what the new generation of clients is used to (those that have grown up with a smartphone). And it's easier, and safer. And it results in less mess in the OS.

Easier indeed...
arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/03/google-play-apps-with-150-million-installs-contains-aggressive-adware/
It certainly would have taken lot more work for those criminals to infect that many phones without that "safer" Google Play...

Any better safety of some single central repository/download source relies entirely on how much tighter "preventive censorship" there is for getting stuff in there.
And if that doesn't catch unsafe stuff, there's instantly huge amount of users exposed to downloading that malware.
Because all eggs are in the same basket.

And Microsoft wants Windows Store pushed everywhere, because they want to join Apple, Google and Valve in having own money press.
No wonder that Valve "forgot" Half Life (Episode) 3 when it's just so much easier for them to make money from Steam.

notbWhy would they need to track anything? It's just a repository.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure they have access to your windows key.

My Google/Gmail account, which is what grants me access to the Play Store, is what Google uses to keep track of any app(s) I may have purchased. Free apps anyone can download, of course, but paid apps (such as ePSXe for Android), well, you have to purchase first, and that info is tied to my Google account... unless there are no such apps on the Microsoft Store, then it wouldn't be necessary.

notbYou have to at least consider a theory that Maxon just doesn't give a f... whether gamers use this benchmark or not. They have nothing from it other than exposure. What could be the ratio of Cinebench users that are gamers and 3D artists (not even clients of Maxon)? 10000:1 seems like a safe bet.
Sure, one can believe that a gamer will choose Maxon software because they know this brand from a benchmark (which I find funny, honestly).
But this exposure had negative results as well. Like accusations of being biased for one company or another. Or e-mails with suggestions from gamers that are just spam in their corporate e-mail.
Gaming community is a lot less mature than the people Maxon usually works with.

Maybe at some point Maxon gives an official response. Maybe they'll allow portable versions and sharing.
But it's more likely they don't care at all and even don't follow this whole shitstorm. :)

Well, they released a benchmarking tool which is "useful for anyone", and now are actively pulling the "portable version" of the latest version of said benchmark. Some people who liked the previous (portable) version might not be happy about that, even if they were only interested in the benchmark (and they likely are, you brought up the idea of gamers using other Maxon software, not me :)). It's up to them whether or not they care about that.

notbSo, you're criticizing Windows Store, because you're not used to using repositories and software managers which... actually are the "normal way" in the computing world. Manual installing using files you have to download from the net is a very weird approach, very specific to Windows.
And I can already tell you that moving to repositories / software managers is the direction Windows will be taking in the next decade. This is what a big chunk of Windows users expect, but also what the new generation of clients is used to (those that have grown up with a smartphone). And it's easier, and safer. And it results in less mess in the OS.

If you don't use Linux and haven't had much experience with software managers, try chocolatey. Maybe it'll convince you. Or maybe it won't. Either way, you'll at least know how working with Windows may look like 10 years from now.
And it's not like you can say "I don't like it, I'm leaving MS" because, as I said, this is how every other remotely mainstream OS works.

That's not a normal way of installing programs for me. I've been using PCs since the very early 00's, and since that point up to now, I've never used such a repository on PC. Unless you count Steam, which I find... debatable. I've used such a repository on Android, because that's just how Android is (but I've also done a lot of things without the Play Store), but that's about as far as that goes.

As for Linux, I felt their repository was there to make things more convenient for Linux noobs, as installing software the usual way in Linux is... difficult. So they made the repository to automagically do it for you. Sure, I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I got as a first time Linux user.

notb@hat it seems there will be a direct download possibility. Enough for you? :)

Sure!

EsaTEasier indeed...
arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/03/google-play-apps-with-150-million-installs-contains-aggressive-adware/
It certainly would have taken lot more work for those criminals to infect that many phones without that "safer" Google Play...

Any better safety of some single central repository/download source relies entirely on how much tighter "preventive censorship" there is for getting stuff in there.
And if that doesn't catch unsafe stuff, there's instantly huge amount of users exposed to downloading that malware.
Because all eggs are in the same basket.

And Microsoft wants Windows Store pushed everywhere, because they want to join Apple, Google and Valve in having own money press.
No wonder that Valve "forgot" Half Life (Episode) 3 when it's just so much easier for them to make money from Steam.

Well, that's one benefit that comes with the walled garden that is iOS. There's less software, but there's also a lot less crap like this. Google hardly seems against ads, though. It's pretty tough to get a working adblocker on Android.

EsaTEasier indeed...
arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/03/google-play-apps-with-150-million-installs-contains-aggressive-adware/
It certainly would have taken lot more work for those criminals to infect that many phones without that "safer" Google Play...

Any better safety of some single central repository/download source relies entirely on how much tighter "preventive censorship" there is for getting stuff in there.
And if that doesn't catch unsafe stuff, there's instantly huge amount of users exposed to downloading that malware.
Because all eggs are in the same basket.

Have you thought this through? Actually, it's the opposite of what you said. :)

All eggs are in the same basket anyway, because an application is prepared by a single author (and that's the party that would have to put malware into the package available in the official location).

This is exactly the situation described in the article you've linked. Authors of apps included the adware. Or rather: the purpose of these apps was to spread adware. Stores like Google Play simply make it easier to get to users.
Alternative download locations could have been edited by other parties, so risk of malware goes up, not down.

Moreover, on places like Google or Windows Store all apps are somehow checked (at least scanned for viruses) by the store.
Don't be afraid of stores. Just don't install apps made my unknown people - just like (I hope) you don't run ".exe" files that you've found in random places on the web or got via e-mail. :)

hatWell, they released a benchmarking tool which is "useful for anyone", and now are actively pulling the "portable version" of the latest version of said benchmark. Some people who liked the previous (portable) version might not be happy about that, even if they were only interested in the benchmark (and they likely are, you brought up the idea of gamers using other Maxon software, not me :)). It's up to them whether or not they care about that.

As I mentioned earlier: portable versions of previous Cinebench (and making them available on 3rd party download servers) have been violating Maxon general license as well.
Now, I can't rule out the possibility that a mainstream website (like cnet.com) or a large repository (Chocolatey) didn't get a permission from Maxon.
On the other hand: the way TPU is run, I'm pretty sure they haven't even thought of that. :)

So the big question is: why has Maxon started to enforce the license now? We don't know and there are countless possible reasons.
I suggested earlier that they're a pro-oriented company with somehow small client base that pays well. They may be fed up with all the noise gaming community generates.
Someone would have to ask Maxon. You usually expect journalists to do that, but since none are around, I place my hopes on guys like @Aerpoweron . :)

That's not a normal way of installing programs for me.

Of course. That's a normal way for almost everyone who spent most their time on Windows.
I'm just saying that Windows is an outlier OS in this regard (albeit one with 90% market share).
As long as OS situation looked like it did in 90s, MS hasn't really had a reason to change this. That's what their customers knew, liked and expected.
However, today not only virtually everyone has a *nix-based smartphone, but the first generation of people brought up with smartphones enters the job market. And they want a store. Microsoft has foreseen this - they have a software manager (pretty neat one as well). They just need to populate it with apps.

As for Linux, I felt their repository was there to make things more convenient for Linux noobs, as installing software the usual way in Linux is... difficult. So they made the repository to automagically do it for you. Sure, I could be wrong about that, but that's the impression I got as a first time Linux user.

That's definitely a wrong impression. :) But an interesting one.
So you think a tool that makes using an computer easier is made for noobs? As opposed to whom? Why do you want to make advanced Linux users' lives harder? :p

Hey everyone. The problem i have with the Windows store, is that you don't have much control about your apps or programs. But this opinion is bases on the game Gears of War Ultimate and the awful experience i had installing it. Half of the comments were, a year back, were that it was not working, download was broken... On other games as well. And to Download 50GB which fully block your internet connection without any option to limit it is terrible. Then you have a reconnect (yay Germany every 24 hours) the download starts again...

Please correct me (and i really hop you do) the these times are over with the windows store. Especially since there is hope for my loved Gears of War games now all coming to PC :)

To Maxon, i've written a longer mail to them, and suggested they get in contact with TPU for example. To get a portable version especially for the overclocking guys which run borderline stable systems. Maybe with a official an confirmed list of Benchmark results. There is no direct download at the Maxon site yet as of this moment.
I'm still hopeful to get some cooperation between Maxon and platforms like TPU. Since both profit from each others resources and knowledge :)

AerpoweronHey everyone. The problem i have with the Windows store, is that you don't have much control about your apps or programs.

Well, it's a double-edged sword. The whole idea is to make installing and updating as easy as possible, so some limitations are necessary. :)

On other games as well. And to Download 50GB which fully block your internet connection without any option to limit it is terrible.

Yes, Windows Store doesn't have an option to limit bandwidth and it shouldn't have.

This is a system-wide policy, affecting other programs. Let's say you have 100 Mbps connection. You limit Windows Store to 70 Mbps and Steam to 60 Mbps. If they start downloading at the same time, there's no way they would be able to communicate this. So you'll still end up with a locked connection and no guarantee which app will download first.

Hence, it should be governed by a single program. And it is. Windows has this built-in. It's just a question of how low-level would you like to go. ;-)
From the top:
1) You can download some sort of graphical bandwidth manager - a program that lets you set limits, priorities etc. I know only one: NetLimiter, but it's somehow expensive for what you need.
2) You can limit Windows apps by a feature in settings (it affects both Update and Store):
fossbytes.com/limit-download-speed-windows-update/
3) You can apply bandwidth limits via group policy editor or in the registry:
errorfixer.co/set-windows-store-bandwidth/
4) and finally: you can edit bandwidth quota policy via powershell (script it):
errorfixer.co/throttle-bandwidth-apps-windows-10/

Basically: (2) should do exactly what you want, assuming it works.
(3) is messy.
Ideally you either go for a robust tool (1) or the manual approach (4).

I mean, I get it... the Windows Store doesn't have that option and you're presenting alternative options to control bandwidth use, but those options are pretty terrible (and point 2 seems non-applicable, the article covers Windows Update only?), short of using a third party tool, which (should) be unnecessary. What I find odd here is you say (even in bold) that it shouldn't have an option for this?

Personally, I've never had trouble managing bandwidth. Not even when I was still living with my parents ages ago, and my dad and I were both running bit torrent applications and playing games online. And that was with, at best, 5mbps down, 512kbps up. If you are trying to download a bunch of crap on both Steam and the Windows Store with limits which, when combined, exceed your entire downstream capacity, you have another issue somewhere... probably between the computer and the chair. :laugh:

hatthose options are pretty terrible

Why?

(and point 2 seems non-applicable, the article covers Windows Update only?)

It is said to affect Windows Store as well (and it did a while ago).
Obviously, this is very easy to check. I'll do that when I get back from work. :)

short of using a third party tool, which (should) be unnecessary.

You don't need a 3rd party tool. Network badwidth is controlled by the OS (options 2-4 from the list).
I totally agree that a friendly GUI app is a better option for casual users.
MS hasn't made it, but there are at least a few options that look OK on paper (both free and paid). As I said: I only used NetLimiter (which is possibly the best option, but somehow expensive).

What I find odd here is you say (even in bold) that it shouldn't have an option for this?

Yes. In-app limiters and schedulers have their function, obviously. For example you can limit programs to only run heavy downloads at night. I used a metered connection at some point, but the limits where off between midnight and 7 am. So I liked the fact that downloads in things like Steam and Deluge can be blocked during the day.
You can do the exact same thing for Windows apps by saying your connection is metered (or, once again, using the more powerful terminal interface).

But by limiting bandwidth in each software you can't solve the problem @Aerpoweron has.
Few apps (e.g. Windows Store and Steam) can run download jobs at the same time and will block your connection anyway.

The only effective solution is to have a single program that limits other applications. That way you can limit software groups and define priorities.
If you run this program on the PC, you can limit particular apps. If you run it on router, you can limit (balance) all PCs in your network.

If you are trying to download a bunch of crap on both Steam and the Windows Store with limits which, when combined, exceed your entire downstream capacity, you have another issue somewhere... probably between the computer and the chair. :laugh:

That really depends how you use your gear and what needs/expectations you have.
I have Steam, GOG, Windows Store, Battle.net app etc all set to auto update. It's not a problem because I gave things like communicators and browsers higher priority. So even if every game I have suddenly gets an update, my PC is still usable.
But more importantly, I've also set priorities/limits on the router. TV has the highest priority (otherwise watching is really painful). A tiny server is second. Whatever is left goes to the other machines (PCs, phones).

I think those options are terrible because that isn't something that a typical user who would be interested in an easy app store would be doing. Personally, I'm comfortable with gpedit or even registry edits, given a guide that tells me where to find the option/key I need to change, but I'm not your average user. We seem to agree on this point. :)

I also agree that a third party app would offer more control over everything, but I also don't like a lot of unnecessary things running on my computer. This includes such an app. I'd rather make use of a bandwidth control option in the app I'm already using, and if the Windows Store aims to be this central repository where everybody goes to install everything, it needs such an option. You shouldn't have to control an app that's supposed to make managing other apps easier with gpedit options (which not everyone even has access to) or worse yet, registry hacks. Or another app altogether.

Someone learned a thing or two from M$. Remember that time M$ imprisoned a man for selling counterfeit windows on CDs that was actually just the free download (25 cents for the trouble)? All b/c they don't want PCs refurbished. No one has done anything and won't. All you need are a team of psychopath lawyers and a brain-dead, senior citizen judge.

I just checked, no stand alone download of Cinebench R20 on Maxons website (yet?)

TheGuruStudSomeone learned a thing or two from M$. Remember that time M$ imprisoned a man for selling counterfeit windows on CDs that was actually just the free download (25 cents for the trouble)? All b/c they don't want PCs refurbished. No one has done anything and won't. All you need are a team of psychopath lawyers and a brain-dead, senior citizen judge.

That was ages ago TheGuruStud, but Apple has refined the process even further. Describing every refurbished part as counterfeit and actively trying to hinder any repair. And on top you get badly designed hardware with sub par critical parts added.

So MS has some really catching up to do which i really hope they never will.

Anyways that was all off topic ;)
I've wrote quite a long mail to Maxon about how the Cinebench is usually used by most people. And they replied that it will be redirected to the right people. That was one week ago, so wish us all luck :)

AerpoweronI just checked, no stand alone download of Cinebench R20 on Maxons website (yet?)



That was ages ago TheGuruStud, but Apple has refined the process even further. Describing every refurbished part as counterfeit and actively trying to hinder any repair. And on top you get badly designed hardware with sub par critical parts added.

So MS has some really catching up to do which i really hope they never will.

Anyways that was all off topic ;)
I've wrote quite a long mail to Maxon about how the Cinebench is usually used by most people. And they replied that it will be redirected to the right people. That was one week ago, so wish us all luck :)

I knew it! You're one of those evil-doers turning macs into PCs by replacing 0 ohm resistors (which is only one of many blatant consumer fraud tactics, they magically fail all the time)! You sick bastard.

Perhaps maxon is just really pissy they don't get a pallet of cash from intel anymore. Anyone remember the 10 intel logos plastered all over the website back in the day? lol
I'm surprised they weren't bribed into completely rewriting everything.

its a classic case of maxon biting the hand that feeds them in a roundabout way, id be happy using the old one if thay want to be funny after all a benchmark is a benchmark.

Looks like cinebench is available as direct download on the Techpowerup site again :)

And there is a direct download on the Maxon website :)
www.maxon.net/de/produkte/cinebench-r20-overview/