Mantle API presentation by AMD, DICE and Oxide - AMD Summit 2013

[erocker]

What does it matter? I haven't seen a serious post out of you in this thread either.

Here's an idea.

Post relevant information in this thread.

Okay, it's not an idea but more a rule of this forum... To keep on topic.

Thanks.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

@ MailMan,
Any developer whom did not partake in the development and is testing it is technically a 3rd party, so I beg to differ on your claim of it being mere smoke and mirrors "gorilla marketing".

Oxide are showing real world results via demos. It may not be the same as testing actual existing games, but it DOES show what the API can do just the same. The only real question is how that will extrapolate into using it in games.

Developers would be stupid to make bold claims that they didn't think they could back up by real world game use. There's a certain amount of credibility at stake here, and they know the entire gaming industry, including it's customer base, have a close eye on the proceedings here.

It's funny how when John Carmack makes a comment, it's taken as truth and trust worthy, despite a lot of failings of his lately, yet when a team like Oxide show real results, suddenly it's snake oil "hearsay" that we can't trust.

 

[ShiBDiB]

someone needs to tl;dr this thread

 

[TheMailMan78]

@ MailMan,
Any developer whom did not partake in the development and is testing it is technically a 3rd party, so I beg to differ on your claim of it being mere smoke and mirrors "gorilla marketing".

Oxide are showing real world results via demos. It may not be the same as testing actual existing games, but it DOES show what the API can do just the same. The only real question is how that will extrapolate into using it in games.

Developers would be stupid to make bold claims that they didn't think they could back up by real world game use. There's a certain amount of credibility at stake here, and they know the entire gaming industry, including it's customer base, have a close eye on the proceedings here.

It's funny how when John Carmack makes a comment, it's taken as truth and trust worthy, despite a lot of failings of his lately, yet when a team like Oxide show real results, suddenly it's snake oil "hearsay" that we can't trust.

The developers are "Gaming Evolved" developers. Of course they are going to say Mantle is awesome. I want a W1zz review of a real world game. Not some tech demo that really proves nothing.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Serious of what ?

Just wait 7 days until it's out, im not discussing much anymore, got other things to worry about now (freaking cold got me on new year, now im sick as hell with a big ear and headache), all this mantle discussion is way over what I planned to use time discussing anyways ... an well It's not really much to discuss, not trying to downplay anything but I feel everything's been kind of said, any newcomers, late guys go ahead and discuss. (and besides, I was pretty sick of all the early discussions because I kind of couldn't control even my self out of frustration,, so some of the middle few pages of this thread are more of a trainwreck, unfortunately)

Oh, I mean a "small thing" as in it's not just a small feature, it's a major milestone, it's not some feature on top.

EDIT: UPDATE

Here you go, mr. serious:

numbers numbers numbers ovar ziben thauzand units

 

[Frag_Maniac]

The developers are "Gaming Evolved" developers. Of course they are going to say Mantle is awesome. I want a W1zz review of a real world game. Not some tech demo that really proves nothing.

That's a very narrow and unrealistic viewpoint. Developers aren't of the corporate mindset. They don't buy into a concept ahead of time unconditionally. Case in point CryTek, whom have waffled back and forth from Nvidia to AMD for Crysis, one of the biggest AAA titles.

My point is, just because some have chosen to support Mantle, does not necessarily mean they are in bed with them to the point of compromising their credibility to the extent of exaggerating and even lying about results as you seem to imply. There's also plenty developers out there whom are working on or planning projects that have yet to decide whether they want Nvidia or AMD endorsement whom are taking a serious look at Mantle.

You're oversimplifying this as if it's a handful of AMD fanboy devs and that's it. You're also belittling the purpose and value of the tech demos. They CAN show how many draw calls Mantle is capable of. If you're going to cry foul with that you may as well just say every synthetic benchmark ever in gaming has no purpose.

The only real difference is we don't know how it will extrapolate to games, but what you're not appreciating is that it DOES show raw rendering power. The main reason you can't guarantee how well it plays out in actual games is because it's heavily dependent on how graphically intense the game is and how well it's coded, and of course how well Mantle is implemented by the dev team.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Update:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/14/oxide-star-swarm-real-time-strategy-mantle-demo/
"It's a difference of at least an order of magnitude," says Oxide founder Dan Baker (who was previously Graphics Lead on Civilization V). "Take the most complex scene you've ever seen in StarCraft II and multiply it by 10."

I've seen so many "smart-gamer-heads" talking how starcraft 2 won't benefit from Mantle, on various gaming and SC2 related forums, like a month ago, i can't link some of those discussions because the debates got heated too much the threads got deleted and some of the people banned including me (i couldn't care less honestly, not interested in kindergarden)

 

[BiggieShady]

Funny thing is that all these years developers are leveraging CPU and GPU usage against inefficient API, resulting with less batches (draw calls) where each one is relatively complex for the GPU (shaders and polycount wise). Now with Mantle to max the usage (and scene complexity) they suddenly need to back off with "big static complex objects reused on scene as much as possible" principle and think more in terms of "greater number of less complex objects but all different and all dynamic or animated". The question is how to change mindset of an entire industry?
Some game genres favor this approach more than others. Space sim genre for instance, no wonder oxide went for mantle first.

 

[Mathragh]

Funny thing is that all these years developers are leveraging CPU and GPU usage against inefficient API, resulting with less batches (draw calls) where each one is relatively complex for the GPU (shaders and polycount wise). Now with Mantle to max the usage (and scene complexity) they suddenly need to back off with "big static complex objects reused on scene as much as possible" principle and think more in terms of "greater number of less complex objects but all different and all dynamic or animated". The question is how to change mindset of an entire industry?
Some game genres favor this approach more than others. Space sim genre for instance, no wonder oxide went for mantle first.

I think the need for this change isn't as needed as one would first think. Since consoles don't have this handicap and most games also get developed for consoles(if not primarily for consoles) most developers will probably already have a similar mind-set, which they can now also use for developing on PC. Furthermore, continuing to program in a way similar to how dx optimally was programmed will probably still result in better performance, even though it would be far from optimal.

 

[TheMailMan78]

You're oversimplifying this as if it's a handful of AMD fanboy devs and that's it. You're also belittling the purpose and value of the tech demos. They CAN show how many draw calls Mantle is capable of. If you're going to cry foul with that you may as well just say every synthetic benchmark ever in gaming has no purpose.

Pretty much. Synthetic benchmarks are in fact useless for real world gaming.

 

[ShiBDiB]

numbers numbers numbers ovar ziben thauzand units

What game is that 0_0

Looks like a new homeworld AND I WANT IT

 

[RoutedScripter]

Oh I forgot the video:

^^ It's not a game, it's a barebone demo.

Homeworld survey is here https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QZGG77X‎

Upd: Fixed Link

 

[Mathragh]

Homeworld survey is here http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QZGG77X‎

Homeworld link is broken for me?

Edit: fixed

 

[RoutedScripter]

Weird link, some bug with copying from search engine and hyperlinking code, dunno, took me some time to fix, try it now.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Update:

Battlefield 4 in Mantle-Mode played on a laptop with EYEFINITY... okay it may be fake, this is breaking, so let me check it out deeper

http://www.nordichardware.se/CES2014/vi-spelar-mantle-versionen-av-bf4-i-eyefinity-pa-en-laptop.html

There are some screenshot of Johan saying that it's fake, but I don't find that tweet on his account, why would he delete it ?

The screenshot doesn't look like real either, unless it's from a twitter app that has different font, that I'm not aware of.

Here is the website translated:

Mantle version of Battlefield 4 has been delayed and is expected to appear sometime in January. During CES2014 we took the opportunity to test the forthcoming update of the BF 4 on a MSI GX70 laptop with R9 M290X graphics and an impressive resolution of 5760 x 1080 pixels.

As a replacement for DirectX, AMD promised performance increases of 45 percent in some circles and use scenario. Then it was all about the integrated graphics in the upcoming APU processor Kaveri and it is unclear what the performance improvements we will see in just the Battlefield 4 with different GPUs. AMD did not want to talk or show any performance differences between the traditional DirectX version of BF 4 with the next Mantle version. During a brief test session, we were able to observe that the substantial equipped MSI laptop was capable of driving Mantle version of BF 4 at around 30 fps with 5760 x 1080 pixel resolution and graphics settings set to high.

Unfortunately, we also managed to crash the system twice in ten minutes, which may be one of the reasons that AMD and Dice kept on the crisp version of Mantle update. The latest data we have heard are still talking about a boat launch in January, and of course we will come back with more information when it reaches we get the opportunity to test the final version of BF 4 with Mantle.

I think it's real, I think there would be AMD coming out saying it's fake it if really was.1

----------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

LoL the trolls have retreated to bunkers, so quiet .... all around the web, feels like a paradigm shift in these few days of that video getting out.

My analysis wasn't far from the reality was it ?

 

[Mathragh]

Update:

Battlefield 4 in Mantle-Mode played on a laptop with EYEFINITY... okay it may be fake, this is breaking, so let me check it out deeper

http://www.nordichardware.se/CES2014/vi-spelar-mantle-versionen-av-bf4-i-eyefinity-pa-en-laptop.html

There are some screenshot of Johan saying that it's fake, but I don't find that tweet on his account, why would he delete it ?

The screenshot doesn't look like real either, unless it's from a twitter app that has different font, that I'm not aware of.

Here is the website translated:





I think it's real, I think there would be AMD coming out saying it's fake it if really was.1

----------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

LoL the trolls have retreated to bunkers, so quiet .... all around the web, feels like a paradigm shift in these few days of that video getting out.

My analysis wasn't far from the reality was it ?

I've seen that exact same laptop demo (start at 1:15 for that specific system) at teksyndicate. Logan said it was just a an M290X aka rebadged Radeon 8970M aka rebadged Radeon 7970M aka clocked down version of the HD 7870 and he didn't say anything about it running mantle. Sooo unless Logan missed something, or they have an exact same set-up secretly running mantle somewhere else I'd say this guy is talking out of his behind .

Thanks for the digging though, moaar information!

 

[xenocide]

So, how about that Mantle version of Battlefield 4?

 

[Recus]

So, how about that Mantle version of Battlefield 4?

Glide delayed till February. https://twitter.com/antal120/status/427045152654249984/photo/1

 

[xenocide]

Glide revolutionized till February. https://twitter.com/antal120/status/427045152654249984/photo/1

Fixed that for you.

 

[Fluffmeister]

I bet DICE are already working on Battlefield 5

 

[RoutedScripter]

Example of a webshit article:

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...-again-as-battlefield-4-struggles-to-fix-bugs


If anyone was reading this, this article has major flaws, not only is the title written by a 10 year old ("battlefiled 4 struggles to fix bugs" .. right) and most importantly the constant mistake of mixing who claiming what, they mixed the 3x and 45% thing totally. Oxide Nitrous Demo is the one with 3x claims, and DICE's battlefield 4 is with the 45% claim, there is no AMD claims at all, yes the AMD logos are on the slides because the latest presentation was done by AMD but it does contain the numbers of those games or demos, there is no AMD claims at all, Developer decides the performance and only the developer knows the performance until they provide it, there is no "optimization" that AMD would do to get "their own numbers", there is no such thing.

This article appears to be written by someone who doesn't even speak proper english.

 

[erocker]

New driver should be tomorrow!

I believe the 45% "claim" is referring to Kaveri and possibly in hybrid CrossFire.

Also, the majority of bad "journalists" on the internet to the decent ones is like putting a basketball and a grain of sand next to each other for comparison.

 

[xenocide]

While AMD is allegedly releasing a new driver (it has a news post and everything) there is no sign of Mantle or TrueAudio in there.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Well, looks like the whole thing is just hours away ...

 

[15th Warlock]

I just hope this is not another broken promise...can't complain about my 290Xs, they are as fast as a bat out of hell, but the reason I decided to try an AMD card after so many years was the promise of Mantle and TrueAudio...

To be honest I don't really care about the BF4 patch anymore, the game is so broken I gave up trying to play it a long time ago...

Oh well, Chris Roberts said Star Citizen will use Mantle and I hope by the time it's finally released 290X users will finally be able to reap the rewards from our investment