AMD to Detail Zen 2, Navi Architectures Come Hot Chips in August

[notb]

Talk about Drama , it's now the loudest fan in a pc, if they're going to that quite extreme ,a bit more effort would be nothing.

Yes, the small high rpm fans tend to be louder than larger low rpm ones. How can you not know this?

Doesn't intels latest hedt feature fans on the Vrms , dya think that's noisey.

I have no idea. And I can't say I care very much about Intel HEDT). If you have a lot of money and you spend it on a PC, it's your choice (conscious, I hope).
I've mentioned earlier that a chipset fan is something that shouldn't happen in consumer PCs, i.e. be forced on buyers who don't care about benchmarks.

If similar fans will appear on lower AM4 chipsets, it'll make this platform even less interesting in the mass market.
And if they don't (despite PCIe4.0 support), it'll mean it wasn't the controller but X570 design/tuning after all.

 

[HD64G]

But the people that mock the offtopic haven't really tried to discuss Zen2. So maybe no one is interested in Zen anymore? Maybe our fan fun gave this topic a life?

And yes, chipset is part of the Zen2 platform. If Zen2 forces fans on chipsets in any way (could be technical, could be simply not giving mobo makers enough time), then we are entitled to discuss this in "Zen2 architecture" topic.

We all know that apart from some X570 motherboards that will be the only ones to support PCIE4 and the top TDP Zen2 cpus, the rest will have the same basic design as the previous 2 gens fro Ryzen cpus. You just pretend to be ignorant of this info just to troll AMD as usual...

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Yes, the small high rpm fans tend to be louder than larger low rpm ones. How can you not know this?

I have no idea. And I can't say I care very much about Intel HEDT). If you have a lot of money and you spend it on a PC, it's your choice (conscious, I hope).
I've mentioned earlier that a chipset fan is something that shouldn't happen in consumer PCs, i.e. be forced on buyers who don't care about benchmarks.

If similar fans will appear on lower AM4 chipsets, it'll make this platform even less interesting in the mass market.
And if they don't (despite PCIe4.0 support), it'll mean it wasn't the controller but X570 design/tuning after all.

I said bye ages ago , your just re typeing the same shit over and over , without any proof THIS fan is anything like you say, total bullshit.
Your not interested in buying Amd , you troll every thread ,sat at a total shitter i wouldn't game on.
That could just about play CsGo.
You know f all about tech yet spend hours on forums chatting ball's.


We are no longer debating , we disagree ,we went over it all twice,now stfu unless you have actual proof on THESE board's precisely.
And do not speak to me regarding this shit again.

 

[NdMk2o1o]

I said bye ages ago , your just re typeing the same shit over and over , without any proof THIS fan is anything like you say, total bullshit.
Your not interested in buying Amd , you troll every thread ,sat at a total shitter i wouldn't game on.
That could just about play CsGo.
You know f all about tech yet spend hours on forums chatting ball's.


We are no longer debating , we disagree ,we went over it all twice,now stfu unless you have actual proof on THESE board's precisely.
And do not speak to me regarding this shit again.

Don't be dragged down, just report it, he's a professional troll

 

[Chomiq]

AMD has chipset fan, OMG! Impossibru! We're back to 2007! OMG!

Oh wait...

 

[Vayra86]

You know the TDP of X570?

As I've tried to point out earlier in this thread, the chipset gets really hot when NVMe is used in RAID, hence the "need" for fans.



Just ignore him, he can't even tell the difference between mm and cm and someone that ignorant is't worth seeing in the forums.

So it has a purpose beyond shoddy engineering and is used situationally. Sounds exactly like most other boards that use a small fan. I think we can move on

 

[TheLostSwede]

So it has a purpose beyond shoddy engineering and is used situationally. Sounds exactly like most other boards that use a small fan. I think we can move on

X570 should have 16 PCIe 4.0 lanes for peripherals, plus SATA and USB 3.1 Gen 2... It's not possible to make a cool running chipset unless you move to a more advanced manufacturing node and it's something AMD didn't do for whatever reason, be it cost, time, resources, something else... Unfortunately this means that those that want an X570 board, has to suffer with a bit hotter running chipset. However, from my understanding of what I know so far, the chipset only gets really hot when NVMe RAID is enabled or if you do a lot of high-speed data transfers over the PCIe bus. My guess is that the fans won't kick in unless the chipset goes over a certain temperature threshold.

 

[ZoneDymo]

Mods...seriously, I dont want to tell you how to do your job but you can see the bait fanboy reactions going on in every threat right?
Care to do anything about this?

 

[NdMk2o1o]

Mods...seriously, I dont want to tell you how to do your job but you can see the bait fanboy reactions going on in every threat right?
Care to do anything about this?

No they won't, they rather wait until someone finally reacts and then infract them instead, going by personnel experience. And yes this happens in every related thread with the same usual suspects every time repeating the same stuff over and over.

 

[notb]

We all know that apart from some X570 motherboards that will be the only ones to support PCIE4 and the top TDP Zen2 cpus, the rest will have the same basic design as the previous 2 gens fro Ryzen cpus. You just pretend to be ignorant of this info just to troll AMD as usual...

To be honest, I didn't know that has been confirmed. I'm not surprised at all, but it would erode the platform attractiveness even further.
X570 motherboards will be very expensive because of OC/gaming features. Do I really need a X570 mobo for Zen2 PC used for rendering or scientific computing?

As a result, aren't you worried about top Zen2 power consumption? Why would they not be supported on lower motherboards if they're good enough for 8C Zen+ (95W TDP). Just how much more will a 12C Zen2 pull? I think most AMD fans hoped it'll be at least similar.

It's not possible to make a cool running chipset unless you move to a more advanced manufacturing node and it's something AMD didn't do for whatever reason, be it cost, time, resources, something else...

So isn't this the right topic to discuss this after all?
AMD put everything in the part that's benchmarked: R&D money, new node supply etc.
Zen2 may be a good CPU, but if the platform is weak, it will struggle to compete with Intel's more robust approach.

Unfortunately this means that those that want an X570 board, has to suffer with a bit hotter running chipset. However, from my understanding of what I know so far, the chipset only gets really hot when NVMe RAID is enabled or if you do a lot of high-speed data transfers over the PCIe bus. My guess is that the fans won't kick in unless the chipset goes over a certain temperature threshold.

As I mentioned earlier: this is a problem since most airflow in the case is driven by CPU, which may be almost idle when chipset is under full load. Hence the need for more robust cooling. It's just a pity they didn't focus on this a bit more and just went for a fan.

That said, I understand PCIe4.0 support will also appear in cheaper chipsets and cheaper motherboards - if not this year then the next for sure. If AMD doesn't deliver cooler chipsets, we'll see fans in the whole AMD lineup. And while I'm very skeptical whether X570 fans will be of high quality (Noctua-level), the ones put in future $50 motherboards certainly won't be.

I said bye ages ago , your just re typeing the same shit over and over , without any proof THIS fan is anything like you say, total bullshit.

That's the thing about discussing rumors. There are no proofs. Do you have a proof that Zen2 Ryzen will appear at all? Maybe AMD will change their mind and become a console maker?

Your not interested in buying Amd , you troll every thread ,sat at a total shitter i wouldn't game on.
That could just about play CsGo.

I think this argument is really old by now. Don't you have something new? I don't game on a PC (literally not even a minute this year, just occasionally earlier). For example: I haven't played CS, ever.

And you, repeatedly mocking people for having cheaper PC parts than you do, is rather shameful. But maybe my expectations for this forum are too high.

You know f all about tech yet spend hours on forums chatting ball's.

I know more about tech than you do - that's for sure.
Having an expensive PC is neither necessary nor a guarantee of extensive computer knowledge.
Just like living in UK hasn't (clearly) made you learn proper English.

And do not speak to me regarding this shit again.

You have no power to force that, just like I have no power to make you behave properly. Life is rough.

 

[EarthDog]

but if the platform is weak,

I think we'll see a rehash of bulldozer/piledriver. Remember many low-end/midrange on down boards could barely cope with overclocking (some at stock) the big chips.

It's going to take higher-end x470 and x570 to drive these puppies or more likely, be heat limited and possibly first depending on the setup.

I'd imagine sticking to the cpu compatibility list is going to be paramount with the higher core count/TDP chips.

 

[Tomorrow]

Fans, fans, fans. Problem with PCH 'radiators' is that those aren't radiators at all. Often it is just square slab of aluminium which has basically no thermal conductivity. Even worse, many have PCB inserts with LEDs which acts as an additional insulator and adds extra heat when lighting is on.

For radiator to be A Radiator it must have fins, and tons of it. Of course you can't put RGB on fins.

Take for example Zenith Extreme PCH (v1 not the Alpha). There is thin (~7mm) piece of aluminium on PCH. It comes in two parts. When you unscrew the top cover (which is about 3mm) you're left with remaining 4. Underneath the shroud is M.2 port. Now any NVMe drive plugged there will be cooking itself to death (I know I'm using it) because pocket in the shroud traps hot air and not transfers it away - no fins on top. So after a while, removed the top shroud, unpluged the RGB piece of PCB and now running M.2 drive with beefy heatsink, but for PCH there is absolutely no difference in temperature with or without top shroud. On warm day 65C no problem. Especially when I trash the system like doing sculpting in ZBrush, there is plenty of I/O access with PCH.

I say bollocks to such design of workstation class products.

Yep that's the problem. If manufacturer can't put RGB on it they won't use it these days.
Back in the day there used to be full copper finned heatsinks on VRM and NB/SB. Now that's expensive and heavy but black painted finned alu block would work pretty well. Too bad noone makes then out of the box. You really have to mod yourself these days to get the best temps.

I slapped a mammoth Morpheus II cooler on my GTX 1080 with two high pressure 120mm fans. Now it never exceeds 60c where as before it went to 93c despite dual 92mm fan heatpipe cooler (Zotac model).

 

[cucker tarlson]

Maybe slightly off topic, but hey...

Source: https://videocardz.com/80714/msi-mpg-x570-series-leaked-gaming-pro-carbon-gaming-plus

lol,you certanly made fanboys angry

 

[oxidized]

Yea course you were with your amd never does anything wrong s/ comment, I believe you....

Well what i'm feeling in this forum is pretty much anyone being for some reason favoring AMD in every situation, and that's exactly why i posted that, since i'm no fanboy, intel produced much better products for the last 10 years or more, AMD was always very respectable, and sometimes they did come close to intel's level, and prior those 10 years they even manage to surpass them, after that, a continuous decrease in performance and quality, until bulldozer and piledriver, where they touched rock bottom, luckily after that ryzen came and changed everything for AMD, a very very competitive product, new architecture, new everything, thank god i'd say, but still, with a new everything they "only" managed to come close to intel in several fronts while staying above intel in one, which is price, where they always had a clear advantage, besides price AMD has nothing to teach intel as of now, since they're battling intel with they new shining architecture while intel is still with a ~ 10 years old architecture, and they're keeping ahead with only slight silicon optimizations. That's how facts are. Ryzen is an incredible product, especially when compared to what AMD had before that, they managed a miracle, but this miracle seems to be needing some more polishing and improving to surpass their competition, and honestly going back to fans on PCH isn't a good signal.

AMD has chipset fan, OMG! Impossibru! We're back to 2007! OMG!

Oh wait...

Look better sherlock, it clearly says m.2 cooler, so unless x570 has fans for the same reason, that has nothing to do with this mobo's m.2 cooler fan. Besides x299 is a HEDT platform, not mainstream unlike x570

 

[cucker tarlson]

Look better sherlock, it clearly says m.2 cooler, so unless x570 has fans for the same reason, that has nothing to do with m.2 cooler fan.

pins on the cpu,fans on the chipset,no igpu,small things that we really moved from a decade ago.not dealbreakers but just annoying cause it makes you go why the hell?
I wouldn't worry about them as long as I was building a pc for sb else,for myself personally I'd rather not have that.

 

[oxidized]

pins on the cpu,fans on the chipset,no igpu,small things that we really moved from a decade ago.not dealbreakers but just annoying cause it makes you go why the hell?

I have no problem with fans, but why is the fan there? What's the problem? Is it needed for dissipating heat from the chipset? Why would the chipset need further dissipation? Could it be that it's not that well designed, and can't guarantee a steady throughput (underengineered)? I hope not, probably not, but then why is it there?
That's what i'm thinking at the moment.

 

[Chomiq]

Look better sherlock, it clearly says m.2 cooler, so unless x570 has fans for the same reason, that has nothing to do with this mobo's m.2 cooler fan. Besides x299 is a HEDT platform, not mainstream unlike x570

Dear Watson, look at other x570 board designs (Biostar and Colorful) with the exact same style of M.2 covers next to the chipset fan.

 

[cucker tarlson]

I have no problem with fans, but why is the fan there? What's the problem? Is it needed for dissipating heat from the chipset? Why would the chipset need further dissipation? Could it be that it's not that well designed, and can't guarantee a steady throughput? I hope not, probably not, but then why is it there?
That's what i'm thinking at the moment.

if it is there,it's probably cause it gets hot,and I don't wanna have to deal with the noise of a small,high rpm fan.
if it is there just for "in any case" scenario that'd piss me off a little too,unnecessary point of failure,plus you've got to be careful about that when handling the pc,those blades are super tiny.

Dear Watson, look at other x570 board designs (Biostar and Colorful) with the exact same style of M.2 covers next to the chipset fan.

on msi it's clrearly for the chipset
plus if the chipset really gets that hot I don't know if you wanna blow that air on nvme directly.

 

[TheLostSwede]

To be honest, I didn't know that has been confirmed. I'm not surprised at all, but it would erode the platform attractiveness even further.
X570 motherboards will be very expensive because of OC/gaming features. Do I really need a X570 mobo for Zen2 PC used for rendering or scientific computing?

As a result, aren't you worried about top Zen2 power consumption? Why would they not be supported on lower motherboards if they're good enough for 8C Zen+ (95W TDP). Just how much more will a 12C Zen2 pull? I think most AMD fans hoped it'll be at least similar.

So isn't this the right topic to discuss this after all?
AMD put everything in the part that's benchmarked: R&D money, new node supply etc.
Zen2 may be a good CPU, but if the platform is weak, it will struggle to compete with Intel's more robust approach.

As I mentioned earlier: this is a problem since most airflow in the case is driven by CPU, which may be almost idle when chipset is under full load. Hence the need for more robust cooling. It's just a pity they didn't focus on this a bit more and just went for a fan.

That said, I understand PCIe4.0 support will also appear in cheaper chipsets and cheaper motherboards - if not this year then the next for sure. If AMD doesn't deliver cooler chipsets, we'll see fans in the whole AMD lineup. And while I'm very skeptical whether X570 fans will be of high quality (Noctua-level), the ones put in future $50 motherboards certainly won't be.

I never said the chipset was weak, I simply implied that it's made on the wrong fabrication node.
To my knowledge, it performs perfectly fine, it's just a tad on the hot side under certain circumstances.

I would not bet on the board designer keeping the same designs. This might be true for lower-end models, but not higher-end ones. Again, to my knowledge.

There have been no confirmations as to what PCIe standard the B550 will support. Obviously the top x16 slot can always support PCIe 4.0 as long as the PCB design is good enough, as the lanes are from the CPU. The same can apply to an M.2 slot from the CPU.

lol,you certanly made fanboys angry

No charge for that one.

I have no problem with fans, but why is the fan there? What's the problem? Is it needed for dissipating heat from the chipset? Why would the chipset need further dissipation? Could it be that it's not that well designed, and can't guarantee a steady throughput (underengineered)? I hope not, probably not, but then why is it there?
That's what i'm thinking at the moment.

Please read my earlier replies instead of asking the same question over and over.

 

[Tomorrow]

Well what i'm feeling in this forum is pretty much anyone being for some reason favoring AMD in every situation, and that's exactly why i posted that, since i'm no fanboy, intel produced much better products for the last 10 years or more, AMD was always very respectable, and sometimes they did come close to intel's level, and prior those 10 years they even manage to surpass them, after that, a continuous decrease in performance and quality, until bulldozer and piledriver, where they touched rock bottom, luckily after that ryzen came and changed everything for AMD, a very very competitive product, new architecture, new everything, thank god i'd say, but still, with a new everything they "only" managed to come close to intel in several fronts while staying above intel in one, which is price, where they always had a clear advantage, besides price AMD has nothing to teach intel as of now, since they're battling intel with they new shining architecture while intel is still with a ~ 10 years old architecture, and they're keeping ahead with only slight silicon optimizations. That's how facts are. Ryzen is an incredible product, especially when compared to what AMD had before that, they managed a miracle, but this miracle seems to be needing some more polishing and improving to surpass their competition, and honestly going back to fans on PCH isn't a good signal.

People always mistakenly think lower price is AMD's only advantage. What about security? I don't hear Ryzen being plagued with holes every other month. Lower temperatures too. Upgradeability thanks to long term support for sockets and chipsets.

Yes Intel is faster except for specific use cases like tiled rendering (CineBench) and decompression. But that speed advantage comes at the cost of 30-100% higher depending on what products you compare. For some people it's worth it to get that extra 10-15% IPC on top even with higher temps and potential security issues.

Frankly i get the feeling that AMD is relegating both Intel and Nvidia more and more to the high end enthusiast market where buying 550$ CPU's and 1200$ GPU's is the norm.
Ryzen has already made everything below i7 models not worth it and done the same with APU's to graphics cards below the 125$ mark.

 

[notb]

People always mistakenly think lower price is AMD's only advantage. What about security? I don't hear Ryzen being plagued with holes every other month.

This one is fairly simple. Because they aren't tested as much as Xeons.
Companies that exist thanks to servers (like Google) are spending huge amounts of cash on testing Xeons.
This is not true for EPYC yet, as the market share is fairly small.
Don't be so shocked by vulnerabilities being found in general. It is normal. There's just no way to make a product without holes and no way to test every possibility before launch. Hence, vulnerabilities have been found in CPUs since they got mainstream.

Don't be surprised that some vulnerabilities found in Xeons don't exist in AMD's products. They are different and they have different holes.

Most importantly: you shouldn't really believe that AMD's products are more secure in general. Why would they be? There's no physical or financial reason. AMD has lower R&D budget (something AMD fanboys love to mention), they're smaller, they have weaker support from the market.

 

[HTC]

Complaining about aesthetics instead of function ... priorities ...

I'd complain if the fan turns out to be noisy but that's about it because, if it's required for the board to work properly, i have no problems with it being there.

Reminds me of the argument i had over with a superior @ work where he was complaining my green pen was bad (which writes great in an oily environment, something that usually kills most pens) and i should use a blue or black one instead, so he gave me a "proper color" pen and ... you couldn't understand about four words out of every five ... but it was the "proper color" ... so he complained when he couldn't read one of the "checks" we use to call for assistance when one of the machines we operate stops working properly, so he gave me another "proper color" pen which was better since you could actually understand half the words ... so he gave me another "proper color" pen that was somewhat in between the 1st two ... and then he gave up and told me to get my green pen back ...

 

[Tomorrow]

This one is fairly simple. Because they aren't tested as much as Xeons.
Companies that exist thanks to servers (like Google) are spending huge amounts of cash on testing Xeons.
This is not true for EPYC yet, as the market share is fairly small.
Don't be so shocked by vulnerabilities being found in general. It is normal. There's just no way to make a product without holes and no way to test every possibility before launch. Hence, vulnerabilities have been found in CPUs since they got mainstream.

Don't be surprised that some vulnerabilities found in Xeons don't exist in AMD's products. They are different and they have different holes.

Most importantly: you shouldn't really believe that AMD's products are more secure in general. Why would they be? There's no physical or financial reason. AMD has lower R&D budget (something AMD fanboys love to mention), they're smaller, they have weaker support from the market.

I doubt it's the lack of testing or market penetration. AMD themselves have always come out declaring they are not or do not believe they are vulnerable to latest thing affecting Intel.
Also i feel like much of Intel performance advantage was/is built on speculative execution. Every time a hole is patched they lose small amount of performance. Well not that small in some cases. Storage performance has also taken a hit on latest Intel platforms coming from an older platform.

Sure no product is truly secure and every company tries to downplay any issues that are disovered (AMD included). I just feel like people sometimes only see the price difference and assume that's the only advantage AMD has.

 

[Lorec]

After all the bullshit MSI tried to pull with ryzen 3000 series, MSI --> no way. MSI is usually the last well known motherboard vendor I think when I buy motherboards. Asrock, Asus, Gigabyte and then MSI.

I'm not going to buy any motherboard with a fan and I think as far as I can remember, I never bought a motherboard with a fan, heat-sink is the way to go. They tried to add a fan on a monitor, bad idea too. Fans is only good for gpus, cpus and the sort. I remember they tried to normalize fans to memory too, pure bullshit, nobody went along with it.

I had only good experience with MSI boards though... had msi x58, msi 970, now msi x470 "it just works" lol
also tbh I dig that chipset fan. thats sooo x79ish. lovin it

 

[notb]

Complaining about aesthetics instead of function ... priorities ...

It seems you don't understand the discussion. We are talking about function.

I'd complain if the fan turns out to be noisy but that's about it because, if it's required to work properly, i have no problems with it being there.

An argument that "a fan exists because it is required" is true, but why is it required? Aren't you interested? What if AMD platform required 7 fans? What if it required you to sacrifice a virgin during boot?

We haven't seen fans on consumer chipsets for a very long time. And as people interested in tech we are discussing this (quite worrying) situation.
And people who are only interested in fps in games, like @theoneandonlymrk , are mocking this discussion.

I doubt it's the lack of testing or market penetration. AMD themselves have always come out declaring they are not or do not believe they are vulnerable to latest thing affecting Intel.

As I said: they aren't vulnerable because they use different architecture. Most things found lately are specific to Intel, because they were searched for in Intel CPUs.

Also i feel like much of Intel performance advantage was/is built on speculative execution.

Yes, speculative execution is a great feature envisioned a long time ago. Intel knew how to implement it so they did.
Of course there was a change of a security problem, but for a very long time no one knew how to exploit it.

I feel like people think of "speculative execution" as something fundamentally bad. Is it because people don't like the word "speculative"?

Every time a hole is patched they lose small amount of performance.

Not exactly.
Every time a whole is quickly patched via software, they lose a bit of performance, because that quick patch usually disables some functionalities.
And that's the moment everyone watches and notes.
But as new patches come around (and hardware solutions in next generations) at least some of the lost performance comes back. But at that point no one cares anymore.
In some ways it's similar to Radeon fanboys demanding tests to be updated after driver updates.