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Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

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We could try not fearing nuclear energy.

Our current course is wholly unsustainable. We aren't ever going to eliminate fossil fuels entirely but our present use is crazily over the edge.
Petrol has withstood the test of time. It is due to its chemical inertness that it has become the ideal chemical candidate among the many. Our world has the necessary conditions which make it quite the decent Hydrogen bond storage device. Had there been any higher pressure and we wouldn't be able to store the energy in hydrocarbon organic compounds.
Is there any other element with a lower acidity? Carbon is as high and up the periodic table that there can be without turning into the alkaline earth metal groups which aren't anionically the same. I think Venus is as acid buffered as it can be.
 
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Petrol has withstood the test of time. It is due to its chemical inertness that it has become the ideal chemical candidate among the many. Our world has the necessary conditions which make it quite the decent Hydrogen bond storage device. Had there been any higher pressure and we wouldn't be able to store the energy in hydrocarbon organic compounds.
Is there any other element with a lower acidity? Carbon is as high and up the periodic table that there can be without turning into the alkaline earth metal groups which aren't anionically the same. I think Venus is as acid buffered as it can be.



I'm also unsure why you keep going on about acidity: You have yet to establish it's relevance.
 
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I'm also unsure why you keep going on about acidity: You have yet to establish it's relevance.
You are right. I'm inferencing from Ayn Rand's book, don't ask why just look at the analogy. There, even with a free energy source there is still the alternator running on petrol(a similar analogy might have been in my recollection by a nuclear physicist, it is easier recalling anectodally), so I know you can have nuclear, but what about intermediaries? You cannot store nuclear...
 
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so I know you can have nuclear, but what about intermediaries? You cannot store nuclear...

I'll humor you here because you bring up a very valid question. Battery technology is indeed insufficient at present. I'd argue to truly store the energy generated fuel cell tech might be useful.
 
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I'll humor you here because you bring up a very valid question. Battery technology is indeed insufficient at present. I'd argue to truly store the energy generated fuel cell tech might be useful.
Okay, I'll accept it when I see it as you can see in my post above questioning the plentifulness of such a compound. We know beryllium is less acidic than carbon, but good luck concentrating enough of that. I botched my organics studies, but fair is fair: carbon chemistry started prior to today's battery tech. Even in the future, I'm not sure we will have electrodes with the same lifespan of a carbon engine. Tesla has statements on that, but give me the benefit of doubt. The guy is hovering above his charisma than what not...
PS: Oh, I misunderstood, you were saying 'insufficient'. I'm not so stuffy to go on like that.
 

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gotta go for nuclear = electricity which can be stored via Hydrogen Fuel Cells ( and by desalination will help solve the water crysis thats inpending)
Hydrogen fuel cells give mobility ( after needed infrastructure ie adapting current refueling stations )
Wind and hydro power as additional/supplementary Power source.
The world needs to worry more about water managment than it does
 
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Having just finished the Chernobyl series on tv I will say I support more development of nuclear power.... (must see btw, eye opener)

Energy has always been a mix, everywhere and climate concerns will simply change that mix, quite drastically hopefully.

We never want less, we want more. The only way to get more is to specialise further. Adapt stuff more for a specific purpose. Create the perfect engines for each purpose. Long or short distance travel for example. Its not like carbon didnt do similar either.
 
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Hydrogen fuel cells give mobility ( after needed infrastructure ie adapting current refueling stations )
I'm sort of an eclectic kind of person, but what are the infrastructural costs of turning nuclear power into hydrocarbons? I still feel missing a step in between nuclear>chemical>electrical is in need of some sort of validation.
 
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In the UK nuclear has not really gone away (15 operational nuclear reactors across 8 plants)) and is set to grow by a third over the next 15 years, it currently generates around 20% of the UK's electricity and in terms of total UK energy production/consumption low carbon fuels make up 20%, of which by far the greatest contributor is Nuclear …….. still a long way to go though.
Once the fusion reactor in the south of France is up and running, it will show how robust that type of reactor can be. The physics are known and well understood, the power output is supposed to be much higher than fission type reactors.
 
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gotta go for nuclear = electricity which can be stored via Hydrogen Fuel Cells ( and by desalination will help solve the water crysis thats inpending)
Hydrogen fuel cells give mobility ( after needed infrastructure ie adapting current refueling stations )
Wind and hydro power as additional/supplementary Power source.
The world needs to worry more about water managment than it does
You're not all wrong, but generating hydrogen is an extremely inefficient process, so you'll need a massively overbuilt nuclear power infrastructure for large scale hydrogen based storage to be viable. Also, hydrogen can't be stored long term; being the smallest atom in existence it will eventually leak through anything and everything. Combine that with it being highly explosive and you have a recipe for trouble.
 

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In the UK nuclear has not really gone away (15 operational nuclear reactors across 8 plants)) and is set to grow by a third over the next 15 years, it currently generates around 20% of the UK's electricity and in terms of total UK energy production/consumption low carbon fuels make up 20%, of which by far the greatest contributor is Nuclear …….. still a long way to go though.
Yeah, USA has hovered around 20% too by reducing power consumption overall and by extending the service life of exisiting reactor fleets. Virtually all reactors running today were installed before 1986 (Chernobyl). Last I checked, the Obama administration permitted two new reactors to be built at existing nuclear power facilities. One was projected to cost something like $4 billion and last I checked, they were already $9 billion in and it wasn't done. I think the other that got permits, seeing all the problems in Georgia, abandoned it. So USA is only going to have one or two reactors that aren't 30+ years old.

This is going to be a problem over the next 10-20 years as older reactors have to be decomissioned.

You cannot store nuclear...

I'm sort of an eclectic kind of person, but what are the infrastructural costs of turning nuclear power into hydrocarbons? I still feel missing a step in between nuclear>chemical>electrical is in need of some sort of validation.
The idea is to get away from hydrocarbons which fission and fusion do. They're thermal generators rather than combustive.

When you have excessive power from fission and fusion, you can use it to desalinate water and/or electrolyze water to produce hydrogen/oxygen. There's already some hydrogen test vehicles out there with GM being the main researcher on the technology.

Once the fusion reactor in the south of France is up and running, it will show how robust that type of reactor can be. The physics are known and well understood, the power output is supposed to be much higher than fission type reactors.
ITER is a test bed. It's not a design for practical power production. Ideally, it will cost 50 MW to run and produce 500 MW when operational.

DEMO, which will follow ITER, is the first to be a viable fusion power plant:
The goal there is 80 MW to operate and 2 GW output.
 
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Yeah, USA has hovered around 20% too by reducing power consumption overall and by extending the service life of exisiting reactor fleets. Virtually all reactors running today were installed before 1986 (Chernobyl). Last I checked, the Obama administration permitted two new reactors to be built at existing nuclear power facilities. One was projected to cost something like $4 billion and last I checked, they were already $9 billion in and it wasn't done. I think the other that got permits, seeing all the problems in Georgia, abandoned it. So USA is only going to have one or two reactors that aren't 30+ years old.

Well, the UK is spending around $120 Billion on a high speed rail network over the next 15 to 20 years so I consider the costs relating to nuclear energy as a reasonable investment, you make a good point about the longevity of these reactors and I can only hope that the development of more efficient and innovated technology goes some way to addressing that. Part of me feels that if the wealthiest countries cannot develop affordable (eventually) and more efficient cleaner energy what hope is there for anyone else. I mean fossil fuels are not in limitless supply so at some point in the planets future, yes maybe a significant distance away, these decisions will have to be made, for me it's the sooner the better.
 

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This page is kind of confusing because the bottom row belongs on the right (will only do so with a really wide monitor). The numbers that matter are the totals on the bottom row:

Nuclear: 23.86
Fossil Steam: 35.86
Hydro-electric: 10.65
Gas Turbine and Small Scale: 32.43

Nuclear has the highest operating and maintenance costs, but the cheapest fuel.


I think if there was a reliable, pre-certified design that cost $x billion and always comes in on time and on budget, old nuclear power plants would probably start being replaced by the new design and more would be added to fleets. It's not the money that's the issue because they have a great return on investment; it's the uncertainty and risk associated with such a massive undertaking as Georgia is finding out.

Dear lord, it's over $25 billion ($12 billion of that is federal loan guarantees) as of 2018 (up from $14 billion in 2017) and they won't be coming online until 2021 and 2022 at the earliest.

It was a facility in South Carolina that backed out.

Vogtle 3 is looking almost done:
 
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I think if there was a reliable, pre-certified design that cost $x billion and always comes in on time and on budget, old nuclear power plants would probably start being replaced by the new design and more would be added to fleets. It's not the money that's the issue because they have a great return on investment; it's the uncertainty and risk associated with such a massive undertaking as Georgia is finding out.
Sadly that won't ever work - building something like this requires very specific adaptations of the design to the location, from seismic protections to waste handling to foundations to weather conditions to ... well, everything. Building in a flood risk area is different from building in a tornado risk area is different from building in an earthquake risk area, etc. And beyond that, no building plan survives the first day of building; things always change, you can't plan for everything, and you have to adapt to anything and everything discovered during building. Any type of one-size-fits-all design is as such destined to be extremely bloated and contain a lot of allocations for "adapt design to condition X" with the budget then being largely make-believe. Not to mention that material costs can vary quite dramatically based on location and a time of purchase.
 

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Actually, not really. They have to be able to withstand deliberate attack anyway which means tornadoes aren't a problem (the walls are 5 feet thick of concrete and steel). Flooding risk is mitigated by elevating the site and moving it out of the flood plain. Seismic risk can be compensated for by placing the facility on bushings and springs.

These new AP1000 reactors have passive coolers integrated into the control/power building roofs. When there's a catastrophic failure, valves are opened and stream is released directly from the pressure vessel to the passive cooling unit to cold shutdown the reactor without power. In other words, it shouldn't be possible for it to meltdown.


I'm thinking the way of the future will be similar to reactors used in submarines with unified cooling systems. Can literally load one on a truck and deliver them to the containment structure.
 

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I am guessing £20 Billion is realistically what it would cost so yes $25 Billion is about right, one fifth of our forthcoming high speed railway line :) ...…………..

 

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Those are actually bigger units (1600 MW) than what is being installed at Vogtle (1250 MW). Vogtle is much further along though than Hinkley so costs could keep rising more so at Hinkley than Vogtle.

It's the same deal with USA and UK though: these are the first nuclear power plants for each country in decades. Subsequent reactors of the same design should be cheaper.
 
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ITER is a test bed. It's not a design for practical power production. Ideally, it will cost 50 MW to run and produce 500 MW when operational.
True, but once running it will provide power for practical application. And that is only one small reactor.
DEMO, which will follow ITER, is the first to be a viable fusion power plant:
Ah but this is just a proposal so far. However, it has great potential. Enough to replace, en masse, all of the fission based reactors in the nation with equivalent fusion reactors. The problems are solvable. Even more interesting is the possibility of capturing the energy given off by the reactions directly instead of using a heat exchange system. The next 30 years are going to be very interesting for the power generation industry.
 
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ITER is a test bed. It's not a design for practical power production. Ideally, it will cost 50 MW to run and produce 500 MW when operational.

DEMO, which will follow ITER, is the first to be a viable fusion power plant:

ITER still needs to prove some very important tokamak concepts before DEMO and/or PROTO can even be considered. Considering ITER is only expected to become initially operational by 2025 with full operation a decade later (timeline likely to be pushed out a decade or more due to factors like Brexit stupidity and inherent deadline slips). So that's 2045 earliest that maybe fusion is actually proven.

In other words, it shouldn't be possible for it to meltdown.

That's what was said about the Gen II BWRs, and look at Chernobyl and Fukushima...

Subsequent reactors of the same design should be cheaper.

If everyone doesn't go "oh, these new reactors are so expensive so we won't build any more". Imagine if the people who were responsible for financing these projects could be made to realise that the more you build the cheaper it gets.
 

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True, but once running it will provide power for practical application. And that is only one small reactor.
ITER is not "small" at all. Further, the facility is riddled with sensors and equipment that wouldn't be in a production facility because it's for research first and foremost.


That's what was said about the Gen II BWRs, and look at Chernobyl and Fukushima...
The reactors at Pripyat were Gen II RBMK, Fukushima was Gen II BWR, Vogtle is AP1000 which is Gen III+ PWR. They're not comparable at all other than basic principle.
 
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It was originally about "Climategate" but has long become a thread about energy/climate change in general. I'm glad it got changed too.
 
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The reactors at Pripyat were Gen II RBMK, Fukushima was Gen II BWR, Vogtle is AP1000 which is Gen III+ PWR. They're not comparable at all other than basic principle.

Chernobyl and Fukushima are very comparable, both are BWRs based on half-a-century old designs that are basically ticking times bombs should they lose coolant.

The Gen III/+ designs are a lot safer in principle, but again, the proof of the pudding is in the making. The flaws in the Gen II designs were mostly due to inexperience, ignorance and incorrect assumptions, which can be fixed... any flaws in the Gen III designs is more likely to be related to cost-cutting, and that's an entirely different problem.
 

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RBMK has no containment and relies entirely on control rods to moderate it. #3 exploded because the rods were removed, the uranium deformed from meltdown, and the rods could only be partially reinserted. There was no stopping it.


BWRs have containment and can passively cool to some extent (not completely dependent on control rods).


RBMK are cheap to build and capable of producing a lot of power but they don't have much in the way of safety features. They are very much part of the Soviet Union design mentality. BWR are very costly to build and have relatively limited power production capabilities because the containment is so large and costly.

Daiichi is the only case of leakage and most of it was because of all the spent fuel held on site and emergency gas venting to prevent a steam explosion (which happened at Chernobyl). All of the uranium is still contained within the facility.

Fukashima Daiichi had a primary containment vessel ("containment structure" in the picture above) with concrete 25 feet thick. Unit 1, which is estimated to have >70% melted down, only managed to make it's way 10% into that. BWRs are all about safety. It took mother nature's worst to upset that facility

Chernobyl happened because of stupidity (the Russians haven't made that mistake again). Fukashima happened because of a 9.0 earthquake which is firmly at the back of every nuclear engineer's/architect's mind in designing new power plants.



Nuclear is still by far the safest electric power source known to man.

The reason why Vogtle is getting passive emergency coolers is because the cost of installing and maintaining them is far less than dealing with the associated costs with a meltdown. These are a $25 billion investment, a billion now to save dozens or hundreds of billions of latter, is a good investment.

Also, the main defining feature of Gen III is that it has a 60+ year service life instead of 40+ years.
 
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These are a $25 billion investment, a billion now to save dozens or hundreds of billions of latter, is a good investment.

That argument falls down when you consider that there has been zero financial penalty, and zero successful criminal prosecutions, against the companies that designed, built and operated the Fukushima reactors. Some Tepco executives got to resign, oh how terrible, and since Tepco is a state-owned company all costs will effectively be paid for by the Japanese government, which means the Japanese public.

If a similar accident happened in America, the company responsible would just declare bankruptcy, get the government to assume the financial responsibility for cleanup, then magically emerge from bankruptcy a couple years later. Then they'd either rebrand or get bought out by another company so that their old, bad name was no longer a problem, and it's back to building unsafe junk! Hell, it worked for the auto manufacturers and the banks - they didn't have to change their names!

So yeah, my trust in US companies to design stuff that is safe isn't particularly high, and it isn't helped by the Ignoramus-in-Chief of that country who's currently gutting any agency that produces facts he or his voters don't like, and filling them with his yes-men.
 
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