Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[AsRock]

I understand your arguments. Now I simply wonder why Toyota bothers with it, or why the UK airplane decided to use hydrogen... perhaps these are simply models in the hopes someday there will be a breakthrough in how to harvest hydrogen easier/cleaner. I am unsure. Maybe these things are an RnD program so to speak, and it's just a waiting game to see if some genius figures out a way to get hydrogen easier.

Any chance in part it could be so they can patent idea's and such ?, maybe they get loans just like most of these rich company's do to fund a idea.

 

[eidairaman1]

More likely it will never happen. BEVs are too good and too far ahead. Toyota seems more interested in slowing BEV adoption to keep ICE sales than FCVs. No one else really has a contender for the BEV vehicle array. While the theory is good, FCVs are just too expensive to run. Check the Toyota Long Beach experiment to see what I mean. 3 years and Toyota is showing no interest in selling the trucks, let alone footing the bill for infrastructure.

Evs are trash

BEV took learning how to tame the Lithium Monster, a chemical solid at room-temperature. EASY.

Hydrogen will light itself an invisible fame if it comes into contact with any oxidant. You also have ti store it at 10k psi in liquid form in order to get any level of competitive density (making the flame-up problem worse).

Also, anything that touched the H2 will self-destruct within 10-15 years: the Mirai Fuel cells are rates for 5000 hours before the entire stack must must be replaced (a 5-10k undertaking), and the Carbon-fiber reinforced steel tanks have a designed lifetime of 15 years , with this replacement cost direct from Toyota:

Toyota Mirai Fuel Tank - 77A2062081 | Daytona Toyota, Daytona Beach FL

Fuel Tank. Toyota Mirai. Genuine Toyota Part - 77A2062081 (77A20-62081). Ships from Daytona Toyota, Daytona Beach FL

parts.daytonatoyota.com

The cost of 35-40k every 15 years to rehab an old Mirai (3x fuel tanks,plus one fuel cells) is going to be a huge price to pay, compared to the replacement cost of most battery packs 5-10k:

How much does a Tesla Model 3 Battery Replacement Cost? | Current Automotive

A real work invoice shows just how much it costs to replace a Tesla Model 3 battery pack out-of-pocket. Plus, how does Tesla supply replacement packs?

www.currentautomotive.com

Yup wait till windings burn up and thermal runaway.

 

[defaultluser]

You are talking about battery vs hydrogen fuel cells as they are now thats why I said technological breakthroughs need to happen before it comes viable. Look at what companies like Plasma Kinetics are working on.

And this is a single company running some amazing thing with "zero leakage" and "zero emissions"? My ass!

It's dubious when you have to use Click-bait like\:

This BANNED Technology Could Push Hydrogen Cars Over BEV,​

when it isn't banned, nor is it a new idea.

Nikola truck had similar Slick Marketing Page, with tons of promises, but the truck didn't even have a working electric Drive train. If there's any real truth to Plasma Kenetics, they're probably hiding tons f bad side-effects of the tech, along with a lot of Pure Uncut BS in those Positive Claims!​

PR without any 3rd-party verification is just Hype.​

 

[Operandi]

And this is a single company running some amazing thing with "zero leakage" and "zero emissions"? My ass!

You know you're full-of-shit when you have to use Click-bait like\:

This BANNED Technology Could Push Hydrogen Cars Over BEV,​

when it isn't banned, nor is it a new idea.

Nikola truck had similar Slick Marketing Page, with tons of promises, but the truck didn't even have a working electric Drive train. If there's any real truth to Plasma Kenetics, they're probably hiding tons f bad side-effects of the tech, along with a lot of Pure Uncut BS in those Positive Claims!​

PR without any 3rd-party verification is just Hype.​

Thats Sany Munro from Munro and Associates. He's worked his entire life in the automotive industry now runs a design firm that works with all the many of automotive manufactures, specifically now with EVs. You don't get that far in your field by accident so I think its safe to say he knows more about this field than you and anyone else in this forum. Talk shit about whatever new unproven tech you want but have Plasma Kinetic done something shady that I'm not aware of?

Besides, nobody is saying this is the one thats going to change the world but if fuel cells are going to work its going be disruptive tech like this to make it happen and if industry epxerts like Sandy shows interest in it than so do I.

 

[DOA]

Besides, nobody is saying this is the one thats going to change the world but if fuel cells are going to work its going be disruptive tech like this to make it happen and if industry epxerts like Sandy shows interest in it than so do I.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this looks like a hydrogen holding system, not a hydrogen creation system. Something Toyota could use to get rid of the high pressure tanks which Sandy has said is a problem.
But it does not address the basic problem of how expensive hydrogen is and will be compared to BEV charging.

 

[Operandi]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this looks like a hydrogen holding system, not a hydrogen creation system. Something Toyota could use to get rid of the high pressure tanks which Sandy has said is a problem.
But it does not address the basic problem of how expensive hydrogen is and will be compared to BEV charging.

Correct but the hydrogen infrastructure is a pretty big part of the problem. Right now as it is storing and moving it high in pressure vessels has so much loss in efficiency that even if you used 100% renewable energy (which isn't the case) to create the hydrogen most of the green benefits are lost in infrastructure.

 

[DOA]

Evs are trash


Yup wait till windings burn up and thermal runaway.

90K miles, hundreds of 1/4 mile runs (all the Hellcats and Demons quit due to breakage) and still not one dime in maintenance. 0-60 has slipped to 2.4 though on Dragy.
If EVs are trash, they are still way ahead of any other tech right now. I am not sure any Taycan owner would agree with you either.

 

[defaultluser]

Correct but the hydrogen infrastructure is a pretty big part of the problem. Right now as it is storing and moving it high in pressure vessels has so much loss in efficiency that even if you used 100% renewable energy (which isn't the case) to create the hydrogen most of the green benefits are lost in infrastructure.

Even with this Magic Beans to hold your Hydrogen, it doesn't fix the efficiency hit you get pumping it through a Fuel Cell.

We've been trying unsuccessfully to figure that one out for the last 60 years; currently, the efficiency for compresses H2 to Fuel Cell Cycle is about 1/4 that of battery (and the pumped-storage is only half of that issue!)

And, you also still have to replaced the Mirai's pathetic/overpriced Fuel Cell every 5000 hours, for between 5k (mass-produced) to 10k (current prices for something as low-production as the Mirai) , regardless of your Magic Beanstalk storage.

90K miles, hundreds of 1/4 mile runs (all the Hellcats and Demons quit due to breakage) and still not one dime in maintenance. 0-60 has slipped to 2.4 though on Dragy.
If EVs are trash, they are still way ahead of any other tech right now. I am not sure any Taycan owner would agree with you either.

Right, putting any production ICE on the track will mean you have to fix the engine every 20k miles. Electric motors have been designed to take such a beating from day-one (just look at all these diesel-electric trains we have running long distances.)

A traditional ICE only lasts hundreds of thousands of miles when you let it run in it's designed performance range .

 

[Operandi]

Even with this Magic Beans to hold your Hydrogen, it doesn't fix the efficiency hit you get pumping it through a Fuel Cell.

We've been trying unsuccessfully to figure that one out for the last 60 years; currently, the efficiency for compresses H2 to Fuel Cell Cycle is about 1/4 that of battery (and the pumped-storage is only half of that issue!)

And, you also still have to replaced the Mirai's pathetic/overpriced Fuel Cell every 5000 hours, for between 5k (mass-produced) to 10k (current prices for something as low-production as the Mirai) , regardless of your Magic Beanstalk storage.


Right, putting any production ICE on the track will mean you have to fix the engine every 20k miles. Electric motors have been designed to take such a beating from day-one (just look at all these diesel-electric trains we have running long distances.)

A traditional ICE only lasts hundreds of thousands of miles when you let it run in it's designed performance range .

Wow, whats with the dismissive attitude? Millions of dollars have been lost by people shorting Tesla stock by people who thought they'd fail now all the traditional auto manufactures are scrambling to catch up....

They have demonstrated that it works, at what point does stop being "magic beans"? Will it work commercially?, who knows but it looks promising and if it does that alone is enough to hydrogen a viable fuel for transportation. Even with the losses in the fuel cell the energy density is there compared to batteries and the efficiency is still way better than the best ICE engines and no toxic by products. And thats with the millions of engineering man hours that have gone into ICE engines to get them where they are (30-40% efficient at best), we're just at the tip of the ice berg with fuel cell potential, and frankly battery tech is also just in its infancy too.

 

[Aquinus]

Wow, whats with the dismissive attitude? Millions of dollars have been lost by people shorting Tesla stock by people who thought they'd fail now all the traditional auto manufactures are scrambling to catch up....

They have demonstrated that it works, at what point does stop being "magic beans"? Will it work commercially?, who knows but it looks promising and if it does that alone is enough to hydrogen a viable fuel for transportation. Even with the losses in the fuel cell the energy density is there compared to batteries and the efficiency is still way better than the best ICE engines and no toxic by products. And thats with the millions of engineering man hours that have gone into ICE engines to get them where they are (30-40% efficient at best), we're just at the tip of the ice berg with fuel cell potential, and frankly battery tech is also just in its infancy too.

The problem with hydrogen is how you get the fuel. Hydrogen is not an abundant element on earth and is highly reactive. So you're either getting hydrogen from cracking hydrocarbons, in which case you're about in the same boat as ICE engines, or you're using electrolysis to split water, where even under the best of conditions (with a heat assisted mechanism from a nuclear power plant or something,) you're still worse off than current battery and ICE tech. Forget the volatility of hydrogen, metal embrittlement, its colorless flame, and the complication of storing it under extremely high pressures. All in all, hydrogen is expensive, hard to work with, and comes with a lot of risks. Battery tech is far less risky and is far easier to take power from any number of sources, which you can say about hydrogen, but electrolysis is god awful in terms of efficiency, even compared to electrolysis. Even if cracking hydrocarbons is efficient, it still requires us using fossil fuels to derive that hydrogen, so it's really not any more green than an ICE engine.

Simply put, hydrogen has very few up sides for the number of down sides it has.

Seriously, if we had access to free hydrogen, it might make sense, but we have to get the hydrogen from somewhere and it's that process that makes this so unpalatable from a cost perspective. Hydrogen is also incredibly dangerous compared to other fuels and storage mediums.

 

[Space Lynx]

The problem with hydrogen is how you get the fuel. Hydrogen is not an abundant element on earth and is highly reactive. So you're either getting hydrogen from cracking hydrocarbons, in which case you're about in the same boat as ICE engines, or you're using electrolysis to split water, where even under the best of conditions (with a heat assisted mechanism from a nuclear power plant or something,) you're still worse off than current battery and ICE tech. Forget the volatility of hydrogen, metal embrittlement, its colorless flame, and the complication of storing it under extremely high pressures. All in all, hydrogen is expensive, hard to work with, and comes with a lot of risks. Battery tech is far less risky and is far easier to take power from any number of sources, which you can say about hydrogen, but electrolysis is god awful in terms of efficiency, even compared to electrolysis. Even if cracking hydrocarbons is efficient, it still requires us using fossil fuels to derive that hydrogen, so it's really not any more green than an ICE engine.

Simply put, hydrogen has very few up sides for the number of down sides it has.

Seriously, if we had access to free hydrogen, it might make sense, but we have to get the hydrogen from somewhere and it's that process that makes this so unpalatable from a cost perspective. Hydrogen is also incredibly dangerous compared to other fuels and storage mediums.

From what I understand, the reason Toyota (specifically Toyota in Japan) is still focusing on hydrogen is because Japan is sitting on a hydrogen reserve one of the largest in the world from what I read. SO hydrogen will make sense, but specifically for those regions of the world that have hydrogen reserves, everyone else will need to do EV or hybrids.

Can't find the source now... bit busy, but I did read something like that earlier this morning actually.

 

[defaultluser]

From what I understand, the reason Toyota (specifically Toyota in Japan) is still focusing on hydrogen is because Japan is sitting on a hydrogen reserve one of the largest in the world from what I read. SO hydrogen will make sense, but specifically for those regions of the world that have hydrogen reserves, everyone else will need to do EV or hybrids.

Can't find the source now... bit busy, but I did read something like that earlier this morning actually.

There is no such thing -it's all methane under the water around Japan, and they want to Reform it just like everyone else is already doing
(to supply what little H2 the world already needs).

Methane Hydrate are a bit harder to unlock than Methane, but they produce the same results:

Japan eyes undersea 'fire ice' as source of clean-burning hydrogen

Oil platform maker Modec looks to strike gold as it tests methane hydrates extraction

asia.nikkei.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/12/japan-tries-to-unlock-the-worlds-biggest-source-of-carbon-based-fuel/

Japan achieves first gas extraction from offshore methane hydrate

A Japanese energy explorer said on Tuesday it extracted gas from offshore methane hydrate deposits for the first time in the world, as part of an attempt to achieve commercial production within six years.

www.reuters.com

Much like there is no magic carpet that is anywhere near production-ready for storing H2 at standard pressure, there is no magic pixie dust that produces H2 without greenhouse effects from the water around Japan.

 

[Aquinus]

From what I understand, the reason Toyota (specifically Toyota in Japan) is still focusing on hydrogen is because Japan is sitting on a hydrogen reserve one of the largest in the world from what I read. SO hydrogen will make sense, but specifically for those regions of the world that have hydrogen reserves, everyone else will need to do EV or hybrids.

Can't find the source now... bit busy, but I did read something like that earlier this morning actually.

There is no such thing -it's all methane under the water around Japan, and they want to Reform it just like everyone else is already doing
(to supply what little H2 the world already needs).

Methan Hydrate are a bit harder to unlock than Methane, but they produce the same results:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/03/12/japan-tries-to-unlock-the-worlds-biggest-source-of-carbon-based-fuel/

Japan achieves first gas extraction from offshore methane hydrate

A Japanese energy explorer said on Tuesday it extracted gas from offshore methane hydrate deposits for the first time in the world, as part of an attempt to achieve commercial production within six years.

www.reuters.com

@defaultluser got to it before I did. They're cracking hydrocarbons. There is very little free hydrogen on Earth. It's part of the whole, "hydrogen is very reactive" thing.

Edit: Honestly, I do think that electrolysis is the right way forward if hydrogen were to be a sustainable energy storage solution. The problem is that we have physical limitations with how efficiently we can split water. The sad reality is that it's cheaper to crack hydrocarbons, which doesn't really make it green.

 

[glsn]

in a nutshell:

we are fossil fuel depend, fossil fuels companies don't like the idea of ceding domincance, so they keep bailing out other solution or make up bullshit claims/stuff such as co2 filters, thanks to accomplices politicians/lawmakers who also like easymoney

2050 global net 0 emission my ass, they just pretend into sending firetrackers across the world to show off, while doing nothing at the root cause

 

[Space Lynx]

Porsche and Siemens Energy break ground on low-carbon e-fuel plant in Chile

Electrolyzed hydrogen is combined with CO2 to make methanol, then gasoline.

arstechnica.com

this is interesting... hydrogen becomes clean gasoline...

also I read this earlier https://www.nh3fuel.com/index.php/f...prising-details-about-using-ammonia-as-a-fuel

ammonia could be next source of fuel and better than hydrogen vs ev/gas/diesel

weird, I wonder why we haven't heard of ammonia until now...

 

[R-T-B]

The main issue I see with hydrogen is the "where do we get it?" equation. Hydrogen is abundant in water on earth but freeing it via electrolysis requires electricity... right now that would suck anywhere that has a coal fired grid.

Chicken and the egg issue.

 

[Space Lynx]

The main issue I see with hydrogen is the "where do we get it?" equation. Hydrogen is abundant in water on earth but freeing it via electrolysis requires electricity... right now that would suck anywhere that has a coal fired grid.

Chicken and the egg issue.

looks to me like hydrogen and EV are dead in the water. ammonia gas makes the most sense. looks very promising from everything I have read on it. maybe I should make a new thread.

 

[R-T-B]

looks to me like hydrogen and EV are dead in the water. ammonia gas makes the most sense. looks very promising from everything I have read on it. maybe I should make a new thread.

It'd be worthy of discussion maybe. I admitedly know little about how it works etc.

 

[cvaldes]

The main issue I see with hydrogen is the "where do we get it?" equation. Hydrogen is abundant in water on earth but freeing it via electrolysis requires electricity... right now that would suck anywhere that has a coal fired grid.

Chicken and the egg issue.

Again, this ignores the infrastructure & distribution issues.

Let's say you live in a place that gets its electricity from a combination of fossil fuel plants (natural gas, coal, etc.) and renewable energy sources (solar, wind, etc.).

In Scenario #1 (EV), the electricity is sent through the established electric grid to the EV which stores the electricity in its batteries until needed.

In Scenario #2 (FCV), the electricity is used to generate hydrogen via electrolysis, stored in tanks, pumped (likely using electricity) into tanker trucks (which are likely powered by diesel engines), transport it to fueling stations, pump (likely using electricity) the hydrogen to the the stations' tanks, pump (likely using electricity) the hydrogen to the FCV tank, then finally convert that hydrogen back into electricity to power electric motors which drive the FCV.

What is the cost of manufacturing fuel-grade hydrogen? It's not free, that's for sure. And even if you have really, really cheap electricity, it's still going to be more expensive than transmitting electricity over the existing electric infrastructure.

EVs don't charge in five minutes. However it's not too difficult to dig a trench, drop in some electrical conductors, and put a charging station in a convenient place (like a residential garage) and recharge the vehicle overnight.

FCVs might be able to be refueled fairly quickly but you can't do it at home. Right now there are are only two places where hydrogen fuel stations are at a density that satisfies Toyota enough to market the Mirai: Japan and California.

Ultimately infrastructure will be the showstopper for FCV. Hell, my guess is that only 25% of the gas stations in my area have diesel pumps.

Porsche and Siemens Energy break ground on low-carbon e-fuel plant in Chile

Electrolyzed hydrogen is combined with CO2 to make methanol, then gasoline.

arstechnica.com

this is interesting... hydrogen becomes clean gasoline...

also I read this earlier https://www.nh3fuel.com/index.php/f...prising-details-about-using-ammonia-as-a-fuel

ammonia could be next source of fuel and better than hydrogen vs ev/gas/diesel

weird, I wonder why we haven't heard of ammonia until now...

The problem is that gasoline still generates greenhouse gases.

Porsche's synthetic gas is a PR stunt. That's fine.

In the end it will be EVs using better batteries than what we have today, fueled by more renewable electricity sources. Germany already generates enough electricity via renewable sources for residential needs.

Remember that the ultimate problem is greenhouse gases, not about generating electricity or power.

 

[Space Lynx]

Again, this ignores the infrastructure & distribution issues.

Let's say you live in a place that gets its electricity from a combination of fossil fuel plants (natural gas, coal, etc.) and renewable energy sources (solar, wind, etc.).

In Scenario #1 (EV), the electricity is sent through the established electric grid to the EV which stores the electricity in its batteries until needed.

In Scenario #2 (FCV), the electricity is used to generate hydrogen via electrolysis, stored in tanks, pumped (likely using electricity) into tanker trucks (which are likely powered by diesel engines), transport it to fueling stations, pump (likely using electricity) the hydrogen to the the stations' tanks, pump (likely using electricity) the hydrogen to the FCV tank, then finally convert that hydrogen back into electricity to power electric motors which drive the FCV.

What is the cost of manufacturing fuel-grade hydrogen? It's not free, that's for sure. And even if you have really, really cheap electricity, it's still going to be more expensive than transmitting electricity over the existing electric infrastructure.

EVs don't charge in five minutes. However it's not too difficult to dig a trench, drop in some electrical conductors, and put a charging station in a convenient place (like a residential garage) and recharge the vehicle overnight.

FCVs might be able to be refueled fairly quickly but you can't do it at home. Right now there are are only two places where hydrogen fuel stations are at a density that satisfies Toyota enough to market the Mirai: Japan and California.

Ultimately infrastructure will be the showstopper for FCV. Hell, my guess is that only 25% of the gas stations in my area have diesel pumps.


The problem is that gasoline still generates greenhouse gases.

Porsche's synthetic gas is a PR stunt. That's fine.

In the end it will be EVs using better batteries than what we have today, fueled by more renewable electricity sources. Germany already generates enough electricity via renewable sources for residential needs.

Remember that the ultimate problem is greenhouse gases, not about generating electricity or power.

nice job completely ignoring my comment about ammonia fuel being the future. lol. mmk.

 

[cvaldes]

nice job completely ignoring my comment about ammonia fuel being the future. lol. mmk.

I was replying to your comment about using electrolyzed hydrogen to make synthetic gasoline. And before that I was reply to someone else if you haven't noticed. Please pay attention.

Again, liquid ammonia as a motor vehicle engine fuel source still has the same transportation/distribution challenges as hydrogen.

My guess is that for another liquid fuel to seriously threaten gasoline, it probably needs to be cheaper by a magnitude of order, i.e., ten times cheaper. The gasoline extraction, transportation, refining, and distribution infrastructure is so well developed that something that is 10-25% cheaper isn't going to be a real player.

Clear heads here have pretty much nailed why hydrogen is basically a failure as a candidate for mainstream motor vehicle fuel. You are free to become increasingly shrill and defensive about your love for hydrogen.

But tell us this: who is going to fund this infrastructure and distribution buildout? Governments? Non-profit organizations? Consumers?

Japan can't even get FCVs mainstream despite a government mandate. And that's in a market with exceptionally efficient distribution due to extremely high population density.

I actually live in one of the markets where the Toyota Mirai is marketed (California) and I don't think I've ever seen one on a public road. This is in a place where autonomous driving prototypes are ALL OVER THE PLACE and have been for years.

 

[Caring1]

nice job completely ignoring my comment about ammonia fuel being the future. lol. mmk.

I can't imagine Ammonia being a safe fuel.
It's a toxic gas in a confined space and a poison.

 

[Space Lynx]

I can't imagine Ammonia being a safe fuel.
It's a toxic gas in a confined space and a poison.

there are many different types of ammonia. i can't find all the details right now, but I did read and watch a bit about it on youtube. seems interesting anyway.

 

[cvaldes]

Japan has a government FCV mandate which is why Toyota has pursued it.

It is important to consider Japan's situation. While it has about 38% of the USA's population, Japan is very poor in natural resources, particularly fuel sources. Japan imports all of their petroleum whereas the USA has multiple crude oil sources (Alaska, Midwest, Texas, California, etc.), its own refining in multiple locations, etc. Japan is also very poor in natural gas resources. Again, the USA has multiple natural gas sources. Here in my home state of California, natural gas is frequently used for electricity generation (as opposed to coal) because the former is readily available.

Without a doubt, Japan's FCV mandate is to provide an alternative to fossil fuel imports since they are entirely dependent on outside sources. While the USA still imports lots of crude oil, it's not entirely dependent on other nations or large petroleum cartels. The USA isn't going to kick OPEC back to the curb in my lifetime but for sure every EV that hits the road will ease a little bit of America's dependence on foreign oil.

Undoubtedly ammonia as a fuel source will also be influenced by the availability of natural resources to provide fuel-grade ammonia, the technology requirements for production, distribution, and infrastructure. The natural resources availability will not be equal everywhere on the planet.

There's a lot more to it than synthesizing a small amount in a lab for a proof-of-concept experiment or doctoral thesis.

 

[Shrek]

Isn't efficiency something against a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine? If one releases the hydrogen by electricity then one already has one lot of thermal engine inefficiency in producing the electricity; then if one uses the electricity directly there is not a second, but if one runs an internal combustion engine on that hydrogen there is.