• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

AMD Ryzen 9 7900X CPU-Z Benched, Falls Short of Core i7-12700K in ST, Probably Due to Temperature Throttling

Joined
Oct 6, 2020
Messages
35 (0.02/day)
The SPEC measurements were done at a set clock speed, yes, that's how you measure Instructions Per Clock.
You don't understand what I am talking about. IPC is no constant that is the same at every clock speed. It can vary at different clock speeds. And it can vary differently on different architectures. That's because IPC is also affected by uncore logic that use separate clock domains. And yes, I know what IPC is and how it is measured. ^^

Cpu-Z wasn't.
Where did I claim otherwise? ^^

We're going to see a higher power draw in part of the exchange for more performance, too.
No, we don't. 5950X vs 7950X, 65W TDP +74%, 105W TDP +37%, 170W TDP +35%. That are quite significant improvements AT THE SAME POWER DRAW. More than the usual generational improvements. Especially at 65W TDP and below the improvements seem to be massive. Which should make 16-core mobile Zen 4 an impressive powerhouse.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,747 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
You don't understand what I am talking about. IPC is no constant that is the same at every clock speed. It can vary at different clock speeds. And it can vary differently on different architectures. That's because IPC is also affected by uncore logic that use separate clock domains. And yes, I know what IPC is and how it is measured. ^^
Yes I understand what you are saying.

CPU-Z is not running at a specific clock speed though, it's not a measure of IPC.

So if you take the combination of IPC measured by SPEC at a fixed clock, then throw in CPU-Z results, you start to get a picture.

Raptor Lake has higher IPC, Raptor Lake clocks higher, Raptor Lake wins on CPU-Z.

Is more needed? Of course, that's why I said earlier that what remains is how fast and efficient the cache and main memory are.

But for round one of IPC and raw Mhz to make use of that IPC, Raptor Lake appears to be winning.

Maybe try to pretend AMD is Intel and Intel is AMD for a minute and you can uncloud your bias enough to comprehend the obvious that is right in front of you.
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2020
Messages
35 (0.02/day)
Raptor Lake has higher IPC, Raptor Lake clocks higher, Raptor Lake wins on CPU-Z.
That's still not correct. Raptor Lake doesn't have higher IPC. It's practically the same as Alder Lake and Zen 4 on average. As the SPEC leak shows. Which also doesn't tell the whole story. But at least SPEC is transparent and tests several different workloads to get a more meaningful average picture. Raptor Lake also doesn't clock higher. As I said before it's only the top model that has slightly higher single core boost clock. But the article is about 7900X, not 7950X. If you compare 7900X to its competitor 13700K then the Ryzen is supposed to have higher boost clock, 5.6 vs 5.4 GHz. Why Raptor Lake wins CPU-Z, at least ST, is mainly because of two reasons. First, ST isn't really limited by TDP at all. So, both can boost to and hold their maximum single core clock speed. Limit Ryzen 7000 and Raptor Lake to like 5-10W and I would expect the Ryzen to win it. Or at least showing similar scores. And second, CPU-Z is a microbenchmark that was intentionally changed in favor of Intel with version 1.79. It clearly exploits some Intel specifics. Funny enough, PassMark showed similar behavior when they changed their benchmark engine some time ago. But it wasn't intentional. The problem was a time function in a Microsoft library. That had been poorly implemented for AMD. And the way PassMark used it caused a lot of unnecessary waiting/initializing without actual benchmarking, resulting in lower scores. They used a different function and improved their program logic to fix the problem. The point is, lower scores in microbenchmarks are no good indicator of hardware capabilities. It also can be just a poor software implementation. Or weighting specific advantages to an absurd degree. That's why they are quite meaningless for real world performance.
 
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7,762 (2.77/day)
Location
Back in Norway
System Name Hotbox
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory 32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s) PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage 2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s) Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software Windows 10 Pro
Limit Ryzen 7000 and Raptor Lake to like 5-10W and I would expect the Ryzen to win it.
I don't have many real objections to what you're saying, but this shows that you're missing a significant point: Infinity Fabric/uncore power. Ryzen 5000 uses ~20W to run IF and uncore, vs about 10W for Intel. This is the cost of running a high speed fabric through the cpu package rather than having it in-silicon. But this also means that no Ryzen CPU can scale to those kinds of power levels and maintain any level of performance. Ryzen APUs, being monolithic, bypass this issue and are massively efficient at low power, but the CPUs don't scale that low.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2021
Messages
572 (0.42/day)
System Name Jedi Survivor Gaming PC
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard Asus TUF B650M Plus Wifi
Cooling ThermalRight CPU Cooler
Memory G.Skill 32GB DDR5-5600 CL28
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 3080 10GB
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro SSD
Display(s) MSI 32" 4K OLED 240hz Monitor
Case Asus Prime AP201
Power Supply FSP 1000W Platinum PSU
Mouse Logitech G403
Keyboard Asus Mechanical Keyboard
I don't have many real objections to what you're saying, but this shows that you're missing a significant point: Infinity Fabric/uncore power. Ryzen 5000 uses ~20W to run IF and uncore, vs about 10W for Intel. This is the cost of running a high speed fabric through the cpu package rather than having it in-silicon. But this also means that no Ryzen CPU can scale to those kinds of power levels and maintain any level of performance. Ryzen APUs, being monolithic, bypass this issue and are massively efficient at low power, but the CPUs don't scale that low.

Why are you talking about this when it is already fixed for Ryzen 7000. They have shrunk the node and massively lowered the power requirements for the IO die. And all the FUD bout the 20W uncore was proven false with the Ryzen 6000 mobile CPUs often having double the battery life of Alder Lake.

Which also proved the E cores are total garbage for battery life also... ADL wasn't improved versus Ryzen there either.
 
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7,762 (2.77/day)
Location
Back in Norway
System Name Hotbox
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory 32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s) PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage 2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s) Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software Windows 10 Pro
Why are you talking about this when it is already fixed for Ryzen 7000. They have shrunk the node and massively lowered the power requirements for the IO die. And all the FUD bout the 20W uncore was proven false with the Ryzen 6000 mobile CPUs often having double the battery life of Alder Lake.
But ... what? Ryzen mobile is monolithic and doesn't rely on IF through the package, hence its amazing efficiency. I literally brought this up myself in the post you just responded to? Though I guess thank you for providing the best possible demonstration that you don't actually understand what you're talking about. This isn't FUD, it's pretty basic physics: IF through silicon (as used for interconnects in the monolithic APUs) is orders of magnitude more efficient than IF through the package/substrate - as signal transfer is silicon is massively more efficient than through fiberglass-embedded copper, even of a very high grade. There is nothing AMD can do to "fix" this for their MCM CPUs through node improvements because it isn't caused by inefficiencies in silicon - it needs a new interconnect, one using direct die-to-die connections (LSI, InFO, CoWoS, etc.) rather than IF through the fiberglass substrate to fix this.

That this is due to IOD power requirements is also a misunderstanding - the IOD in terms of its I/O functionality is perfectly fine for efficiency - its memory, PCIe and other controllers are neither more nor less efficient than those found in APUs - it's the same or very similar silicon, after all, just on a slightly older node (which doesn't matter much for I/O purposes, as I/O power doesn't scale like logic power with node changes). It's just connected to the CCDs through a relatively high power interconnect (which, to be clear, is still the most efficient interconnect of its kind - it's just inherently less efficient than anything die-to-die). I have no doubt that AMD have worked on improving the per-bit efficiency of through-package IF, especially as they have to run it faster to match DDR5 - but there's nothing they can do to bring its power requirements down to a level where it matches a monolithic chip, save for direct die-to-die interconnects - which we know Zen4 doesn't have (at least in its AM5 iterations).

I mean, just look at EPYC and TR Pro - they run ~100W uncore power, even with essentially all PCIe and other I/O idle. Why? Becuase of those 8 IF links through the substrate. This is also why we still haven't seen MCM APUs from AMD for the mobile space - those won't be coming until they can mass produce them with a die-to-die interconnect at acceptable prices. I was hoping AM5 Ryzen CPUs would be using LSI, but sadly that didn't pan out - but I still hope we'll see it implemented for upcoming APUs, as that would be a massive benefit to these chips.
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
10 (0.00/day)
What the hell happened to btarunr??? o_O All of his articles for a good while now recently have been poorly researched and misleading if not outright false garbage. He's either gotten too lazy or too technologically illiterate to handle his current position IMO.

Better yet, what the hell has happened to this website?... -_-
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
1,227 (0.50/day)
Processor AMD Ryzen 9 5950X
Motherboard Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Hero WiFi
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer II 420
Memory 32Gb G-Skill Trident Z Neo @3806MHz C14
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX2070
Storage Seagate FireCuda 530 1TB
Display(s) Samsung G9 49" Curved Ultrawide
Case Cooler Master Cosmos
Audio Device(s) O2 USB Headphone AMP
Power Supply Corsair HX850i
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Cherry MX
Software Windows 11
"AMD Ryzen 9 7900X CPU-Z Benched, Falls Short of Core i7-12700K in ST, Probably Due to Temperature Throttling" Yeah, and the odd way that CPU-Z does the multicore bench first, which heats everything up and degrades the Single core bench scores...
 

kopatator

New Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
2 (0.00/day)
There is improvement from zen 3 for sure , that has been always the important goal , they promised Upgrade and I hope they do provide as they did so far , benchmarks never gave direct answers how good is a chip in gaming or workloads but only "Flexing" numbers and meaningless rankings, speculation, rumors and misleading fan based articles will just ruin your enthusiasm, until it's a full release with no embargo and fully tested and competed by adequate enthusiast's don't make a complete assessment and ruin their reputation.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,747 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
What the hell happened to btarunr??? o_O All of his articles for a good while now recently have been poorly researched and misleading if not outright false garbage. He's either gotten too lazy or too technologically illiterate to handle his current position IMO.

Better yet, what the hell has happened to this website?... -_-
You have simple facts and information presented with a new data point, and choose to disparage the messenger.

I absolutely deplore posts and posters like the one above. This is the type of fanboy pressure exerted on sites to come to the conclusions their viewers want to see, basically to become a source of confirmation bias, that ultimately leads to tech tubers and tech sites that just cater to telling their audience what they want to hear and ultimately makes them worthless.

Nobody said anything about Zen 4 being slower than Raptor Lake in actual applications, there's a lot more to a system than a one core synthetic test. And no there is nothing wrong with CPU-Z as a quick test, provided you know what it is testing. Same thing goes for Geekbench, or even full blown applications if taken in a vacuum.
 
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
9,434 (3.40/day)
System Name Best AMD Computer
Processor AMD 7900X3D
Motherboard Asus X670E E Strix
Cooling In Win SR36
Memory GSKILL DDR5 32GB 5200 30
Video Card(s) Sapphire Pulse 7900XT (Watercooled)
Storage Corsair MP 700, Seagate 530 2Tb, Adata SX8200 2TBx2, Kingston 2 TBx2, Micron 8 TB, WD AN 1500
Display(s) GIGABYTE FV43U
Case Corsair 7000D Airflow
Audio Device(s) Corsair Void Pro, Logitch Z523 5.1
Power Supply Deepcool 1000M
Mouse Logitech g7 gaming mouse
Keyboard Logitech G510
Software Windows 11 Pro 64 Steam. GOG, Uplay, Origin
Benchmark Scores Firestrike: 46183 Time Spy: 25121
There is improvement from zen 3 for sure , that has been always the important goal , they promised Upgrade and I hope they do provide as they did so far , benchmarks never gave direct answers how good is a chip in gaming or workloads but only "Flexing" numbers and meaningless rankings, speculation, rumors and misleading fan based articles will just ruin your enthusiasm, until it's a full release with no embargo and fully tested and competed by adequate enthusiast's don't make a complete assessment and ruin their reputation.
This could go 1 of 2 ways. It might feel like when people moved from 2000 to 3000 series, The 3300X you could actually feel vs even the 2600. The other way is 3000 to 5000 which was more difficult to notice unless you got a 5900/5950X. I am running a 360 Rad with my 5950X. I will probably have to use a CPU block I have sitting around that was for TR4 with whatever chip I get to see maximum clocks though.
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2020
Messages
35 (0.02/day)
I don't have many real objections to what you're saying, but this shows that you're missing a significant point: Infinity Fabric/uncore power. Ryzen 5000 uses ~20W to run IF and uncore, vs about 10W for Intel. This is the cost of running a high speed fabric through the cpu package rather than having it in-silicon. But this also means that no Ryzen CPU can scale to those kinds of power levels and maintain any level of performance. Ryzen APUs, being monolithic, bypass this issue and are massively efficient at low power, but the CPUs don't scale that low.
You are missing a significant point. Ryzen 5000's IOD is made on the old 12nm process of Glofo. It exists since Ryzen 3000 and hasn't been power optimized since then. Ryzen 7000 uses a new 6nm low power IOD. That's a completely different story.
 

ARF

Joined
Jan 28, 2020
Messages
4,670 (2.59/day)
Location
Ex-usa | slava the trolls
You are missing a significant point. Ryzen 5000's IOD is made on the old 12nm process of Glofo. It exists since Ryzen 3000 and hasn't been power optimized since then. Ryzen 7000 uses a new 6nm low power IOD. That's a completely different story.

TSMC' N6 node is not optimal. They have shrinks - N5/N4 which are a generation ahead and will give even better thermals / lower power consumption.
 
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7,762 (2.77/day)
Location
Back in Norway
System Name Hotbox
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory 32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s) PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage 2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s) Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software Windows 10 Pro
You are missing a significant point. Ryzen 5000's IOD is made on the old 12nm process of Glofo. It exists since Ryzen 3000 and hasn't been power optimized since then. Ryzen 7000 uses a new 6nm low power IOD. That's a completely different story.
No, it isn't a completely differnt story, but a relatively minor change. I/O power does not scale with node shrinks in the same way compute power does, and the IOD is almost entirely I/O and very little compute. There will be power savings from the upcoming IOD node shrink, but they won't be ground-breaking, and they won't come anywhere near the power level of any in-die or die-to-die interconnect - that simply isn't physically possible. The majority of power use "for the IOD" is power it needs to use to transmit the signals it generates through whatever wires those signals need to pass through - whether those are in the CPU package (IF) or motherboard (PCIe, DRAM, etc.). (This of course also means that IF power is spread roughly equally across the IOD and CCDs, as it's a bidirectional link with transmitters and receivers on both ends.) Which is an inherent inefficiency of IF through the CPU package/substrate: sending signals through a medium like this is vastly more energy intensive than doing the same through silicon - orders of magintude higher. For AMD's CPUs to rid themselves of this (IMO relatively minor) Achilles heel, they need to switch to a more advanced form of packaging, such as LSI (TSMC's equivalent to Intel's EMIB) to eliminate the need to send signals through the substrate.

I really, really hope that AMD starts moving to more advanced packaging sooner rather than later, especially as Intel is already well on their way with Meteor Lake. LSI and similar interconnects allow for combining the best properties of monolithic and MCM designs, with the only disadvantage being packaging complexity (which typically, at least early on, means higher costs and lower yields). But the tech exists, and AMD needs to start taking advantage of it sooner rather than later.

TSMC' N6 node is not optimal. They have shrinks - N5/N4 which are a generation ahead and will give even better thermals / lower power consumption.
Using a cutting-edge node for a die that's nearly exclusively I/O would be immensely wasteful and bring very few real-world benefits with it - I/O needs a lot of die area (which, like power, doesn't tend to shrink with node shrinks like logic area does) meaning you'll be spending a lot of wafers on a very expensive node making something that'll at best be marginally better than a slightly larger, much cheaper version of the same die. A more dense silicon lithography node does not in any way reduce the voltage or power necessary to transmit a high bandwidth signal through fiberglass-embedded copper wires. Better designs in silicon can (and do!) both increase bandwidth and reduce power, but those don't tend to scale much with node changes either, but with further design effort spent on refining the architectures involved. And, crucially, AMD already needs to increase IF clock speeds to match DDR5 clock speeds, which will most likely eat up whatever efficiency gains they have manged since the previous version of IF.
 

ARF

Joined
Jan 28, 2020
Messages
4,670 (2.59/day)
Location
Ex-usa | slava the trolls
Using a cutting-edge node for a die that's nearly exclusively I/O would be immensely wasteful and bring very few real-world benefits with it - I/O needs a lot of die area (which, like power, doesn't tend to shrink with node shrinks like logic area does) meaning you'll be spending a lot of wafers on a very expensive node making something that'll at best be marginally better than a slightly larger, much cheaper version of the same die. A more dense silicon lithography node does not in any way reduce the voltage or power necessary to transmit a high bandwidth signal through fiberglass-embedded copper wires. Better designs in silicon can (and do!) both increase bandwidth and reduce power, but those don't tend to scale much with node changes either, but with further design effort spent on refining the architectures involved. And, crucially, AMD already needs to increase IF clock speeds to match DDR5 clock speeds, which will most likely eat up whatever efficiency gains they have manged since the previous version of IF.

I tend to get the point but N5/N4 is already old. Apple is using the true cutting edge N3E node, one generation ahead.
 
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7,762 (2.77/day)
Location
Back in Norway
System Name Hotbox
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory 32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s) PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage 2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s) Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software Windows 10 Pro
Well now that IO die contains iGPU i would say there is some benefit of node scaling. If for nothing else than for power and area savings.
That is true, but that doesn't apply to the logic being applied here. There's no iGPU in the existing IOD, so arguing for the node change lowering its power usage relative to the old one makes no sense - you could argue that without the node change the new IOD would be significantly more power hungry, but that's another argument entirely.

I tend to get the point but N5/N4 is already old. Apple is using the true cutting edge N3E node, one generation ahead.
... and? N5/N4 are still stupidly expensive, even if TSMC is ramping production of newer nodes. Whether or not there exists even more stupidly expensive nodes doesn't affect any part of my argument.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
1,709 (1.51/day)
Location
Mississauga, Canada
Processor Ryzen 7 5700X
Motherboard ASUS TUF Gaming X570-PRO (WiFi 6)
Cooling Noctua NH-C14S (two fans)
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3200
Video Card(s) Reference Vega 64
Storage Intel 665p 1TB, WD Black SN850X 2TB, Crucial MX300 1TB SATA, Samsung 830 256 GB SATA
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG27, and Samsung S23A700
Case Fractal Design R5
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME TITANIUM 850W
Mouse Logitech
VR HMD Oculus Rift
Software Windows 11 Pro, and Ubuntu 20.04

ARF

Joined
Jan 28, 2020
Messages
4,670 (2.59/day)
Location
Ex-usa | slava the trolls
N3E is not scheduled to be in production until the latter half of 2023. Apple's latest chips, the A16, is built on a 4 nm process.

A17 is N3 and is in mass production as of the time of writing.

Apple M2 Pro and A17 Bionic chips to enter mass production in September 2022. Multiple reports from Taiwanese news outlets suggest that the M2's successor, the Apple M2 Pro, will be mass produced later this year. It will use TSMC's cutting-edge N3 node and power MacBooks/Mac Minis sometime in 2023/2024. Apple M2 Pro and A17 Bionic chips to enter mass production in September 2022 - NotebookCheck.net News
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2021
Messages
1,709 (1.51/day)
Location
Mississauga, Canada
Processor Ryzen 7 5700X
Motherboard ASUS TUF Gaming X570-PRO (WiFi 6)
Cooling Noctua NH-C14S (two fans)
Memory 2x16GB DDR4 3200
Video Card(s) Reference Vega 64
Storage Intel 665p 1TB, WD Black SN850X 2TB, Crucial MX300 1TB SATA, Samsung 830 256 GB SATA
Display(s) Nixeus NX-EDG27, and Samsung S23A700
Case Fractal Design R5
Power Supply Seasonic PRIME TITANIUM 850W
Mouse Logitech
VR HMD Oculus Rift
Software Windows 11 Pro, and Ubuntu 20.04
A17 is N3 and is in mass production as of the time of writing.

Apple M2 Pro and A17 Bionic chips to enter mass production in September 2022. Multiple reports from Taiwanese news outlets suggest that the M2's successor, the Apple M2 Pro, will be mass produced later this year. It will use TSMC's cutting-edge N3 node and power MacBooks/Mac Minis sometime in 2023/2024. Apple M2 Pro and A17 Bionic chips to enter mass production in September 2022 - NotebookCheck.net News
I don't count products that aren't going to be available in 12 months.
 
Joined
May 2, 2017
Messages
7,762 (2.77/day)
Location
Back in Norway
System Name Hotbox
Processor AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 110/95/110, PBO +150Mhz, CO -7,-7,-20(x6),
Motherboard ASRock Phantom Gaming B550 ITX/ax
Cooling LOBO + Laing DDC 1T Plus PWM + Corsair XR5 280mm + 2x Arctic P14
Memory 32GB G.Skill FlareX 3200c14 @3800c15
Video Card(s) PowerColor Radeon 6900XT Liquid Devil Ultimate, UC@2250MHz max @~200W
Storage 2TB Adata SX8200 Pro
Display(s) Dell U2711 main, AOC 24P2C secondary
Case SSUPD Meshlicious
Audio Device(s) Optoma Nuforce μDAC 3
Power Supply Corsair SF750 Platinum
Mouse Logitech G603
Keyboard Keychron K3/Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro M w/DSA profile caps
Software Windows 10 Pro
I don't count products that aren't going to be available in 12 months.
Mass production of chips tends to start 6-9 months before they come to market though. One thing is that the full production process of a single wafer can take a month or more; another is testing, binning, packaging, etc. Then there's building up sufficient stock before launch, and then there's putting them into whatever products they're going into (unless they're being sold directly). These things take time. But it does indeed seem like N3 has been slated for mass production in "late 2022" for a while now.

Still, N5/N4 are still essentially cutting edge nodes - they're more advanced than what is widely adopted in most industries, and in most high volume chip production. And they're massively expensive still (though hopefully prices are dropping now that TSMC's order numbers are dropping).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ARF
Joined
Oct 6, 2020
Messages
35 (0.02/day)
TSMC' N6 node is not optimal. They have shrinks - N5/N4 which are a generation ahead and will give even better thermals / lower power consumption.
If optimal or not, it will be a HUGE improvement over the current 12nm IOD. I think in terms of efficiency and cost it is an optimal solution for now. As Rembrandt shows N6 is a quite good improvement over N7. N5 is a lot more expensive. N4 capacity is limited at the moment.

No, it isn't a completely differnt story
Yes, it is a completely different story. First, TSMC's N6 will offer significant power savings compared to 12nm Glofo. It doesn't matter if I/O or compute logic. It applies to all transistors. And second, AMD optimized the new IOD for low power. Both combined will result in substantial less power requirements. I wouldn't be surprised if the new IOD can reduce power consumption by about 50%.
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
1,747 (0.48/day)
System Name Legion
Processor i7-12700KF
Motherboard Asus Z690-Plus TUF Gaming WiFi D5
Cooling Arctic Liquid Freezer 2 240mm AIO
Memory PNY MAKO DDR5-6000 C36-36-36-76
Video Card(s) PowerColor Hellhound 6700 XT 12GB
Storage WD SN770 512GB m.2, Samsung 980 Pro m.2 2TB
Display(s) Acer K272HUL 1440p / 34" MSI MAG341CQ 3440x1440
Case Montech Air X
Power Supply Corsair CX750M
Mouse Logitech MX Anywhere 25
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys
Software Lots
That is true, but that doesn't apply to the logic being applied here. There's no iGPU in the existing IOD, so arguing for the node change lowering its power usage relative to the old one makes no sense - you could argue that without the node change the new IOD would be significantly more power hungry, but that's another argument entirely.


... and? N5/N4 are still stupidly expensive, even if TSMC is ramping production of newer nodes. Whether or not there exists even more stupidly expensive nodes doesn't affect any part of my argument.

I think there was an article on WikiChip or maybe SemiWiki not too long ago (couple of years) showing that N5 and similar nodes was the inflection point for cost, where it began to be more expensive per transistor (aka per chip) to make vs N7 and larger nodes. That does appear to be playing out, anecdotally anyway.

A big part of why the cost of a CPU for example flatlined for 20+ years, despite having more and more transistors and associated fab costs along with normal compounding inflation effects, was the increase in density meant more chips per wafer. If we have hit that inflection point where cost to produce ramps faster than density improvements and per wafer chip yields can offset, then the next 20 years will look quite different than the last 20 years.
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2020
Messages
35 (0.02/day)
I tend to get the point but N5/N4 is already old. Apple is using the true cutting edge N3E node, one generation ahead.
N4 is old? LOL. Apple has just launched it's first N4 SoC. N3E is planned for A17. Which is still far away. N3E mass production is scheduled for 2H 2023.
 
Top