Finally a lithium starting battery

[LabRat 891]

How does the capacity compare?

Even if 'equal by specification' (or less), a LiFePo4 'Lithium battery' can be discharged *much* deeper than a Lead-Acid before the battery is permanently damaged.

Also, the peak current output of a LiFePo4 is much higher. Even moderately discharged, a LiFePo4 will turn over a starter easier than a Lead Acid w/ low voltage.
[Referencing back to how batteries have less effective capacity the heavier the relative discharge load (C), means that a LiFePo4 will have more effective capacity in 'heavy' / transient loads -like start/stop equipped automobiles]

Typically, <50% State of Charge on any flavor of Lead-Acid can/will damage the battery, reducing capacity and peak 'cranking amps' permanently. [I know this one 1st hand, repeatedly ]


TBQH, Cold performance and Cost are the two biggest cons alongside BMS complexity/reliability.
If cold is a non-issue, and one sees the value in the overall costs, they're fantastic.

LiFePo4 in particular is also very stable/safe.
IMO, the immediate current output is more dangerous than the chemistry itself; they can't 'go nuclear' like many other flavors of Lithium. Also, much safer in a fire, IIRC.
[Wouldn't want to hit the starter's power lead w/ a ratchet. It's bad enough on 'normal' car batteries ]

 

[wolf]

How does the capacity compare?

half of the standard lead acid, from 9/10ah to 5ah. However 135cca to 300cca, heaps more cycles (2000 vs 300-500 iirc), 1/3 the weight and so on. Luckily for a motorcycle ah rating isn't so important for powering accessories with the engine off like it is in a car.

 

[GhostRyder]

Since lithium batteries last a lot longer when only taken to 80% I would be keen NOT to use a special charger...

Valid point, I still would be curious how these do long term especially with the very high up front cost.

 

[Shrek]

Now standard sizes

Amazon.com: XingCell PB24 12V BCI Group 51R LiFePO4 Lithium-ion Car Battery with Ultra-Long Cycle Life and Lightweight Design for Car Audio and Automotive Replacement Batteries : Automotive

and a reasonable price

• 30 Ah
• 380 CCA

but reviews don't seem good.

 

[Caring1]

Now standard sizes

Amazon.com: XingCell PB24 12V BCI Group 51R LiFePO4 Lithium-ion Car Battery with Ultra-Long Cycle Life and Lightweight Design for Car Audio and Automotive Replacement Batteries : Automotive

and a reasonable price

• 30 Ah
• 380 CCA

but reviews don't seem good.

Say that three times fast

Manufacturer

Foshanshixingwangshengdianzikejiyouxiangongsi

 

[eidairaman1]

Say that three times fast

Manufacturer

Foshanshixingwangshengdianzikejiyouxiangongsi

Giberish

 

[KLiKzg]

Finally a lithium starting battery

DL+ 12v 60Ah Dual 1000CCA Starter Plus for Deep Cycle Battery (dakotalithium.com)

1000 CCA

Not going to work in the environment of around ~90°C.

 

[izy]

600$ too , not that cheap.

 

[DaemonForce]

So I've had some experiences with lithium batteries over the years. Some good, some bad.
Not automotive like the countless wet cell batteries and I've had tons of bad experiences with those.
Had a few engines, built one. Runs like an ape.
I also main an antique engine that DRINKS power and needs very STRONG batteries that cost a fortune.
It has blown up ONE battery under my care after the timing gear decided it had enough one morning and jumped a tooth.
So what happens to these lithium batteries when they begin to spicy pillow?
Is that risk gone now or is it something specific to computers and fine electronics?
Not trying to be alarmist, just wondering wat do.

 

[Steevo]

Reviews on longevity of many of the lithium batteries has been poor. A quality Lead/acid can last for 10 years and 6 of those years without appreciable performance degradation and the lithium batteries were only seeing 2-3 years before degrading.

 

[Shrek]

I don' think I have had UPS batteries last 10 years.

 

[KLiKzg]

600$ too , not that cheap.

Better look at Na-ion batteries for car.
Cheaper & can withstand & work on higher temps.
Also, does not heat that much as Li-ion!

Lead Acid Replacement - Nadion Energy

Introducing Nadion Energy’s groundbreaking sodium-ion batteries, eco-friendly alternatives to lead-acid, available in 12V, 24V, 36V, and 48V configurations.

nadionenergy.com

 

[Steevo]

I don' think I have had UPS batteries last 10 years.

A car starting battery? Yes, I replaced batteries in vehicles that are 8-12 years old for personal or company vehicles, The reviews show the Lithium replacements take damage from the heat/cold cycles that a well made lead acid/AGM battery won't. For vehicles where the battery isn't in the engine compartment they will still be cold. I was from Colorado, now Montana and have used or attempted to use lithium batteries in the extreme cold (-44F is the coldest I have been in here)and they don't work at all, or well.

 

[freeagent]

Yup, if they were that great we would be using them in Canada. Nothing likes the cold to be fair.

 

[izy]

Better look at Na-ion batteries for car.
Cheaper & can withstand & work on higher temps.
Also, does not heat that much as Li-ion!

Lead Acid Replacement - Nadion Energy

Introducing Nadion Energy’s groundbreaking sodium-ion batteries, eco-friendly alternatives to lead-acid, available in 12V, 24V, 36V, and 48V configurations.

nadionenergy.com

I only compared it to a regular 60Ah car battery, which costs $50 - $200 here.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

I must admit that a movie scene came up in my head when I read "Lead-Acid cartel"

Isn't the automotive sector pretty much the only one left where lead-acid type batteries are still widely used?

At work with other techs we actually concluded the same actually... it is a headscratcher... we have everything really, but nope... weird world we live in.

There is no lead-acid cartel...only people making money off of things.

Lead-acid is useful if:
1) Cost is a factor
2) Weight is a minimal factor
3) Recyclability is a factor
4) Environment is a factor

To clarify, lead-acid retains better in lower temperatures, and higher temperatures. It doesn't have the highest capacity, but endures much better than lithium based upon sturdier construction (read: heavier plates). Likewise, lead-acid is easy to recycle. Pour out fluid, react with salt to pH balance, distill, good. Lead plates are easy to melt and restructure, and the lead salts can be chemically or mechanically converted back into plates. No explosive reactions when exposed to oxygen.

The reason that lithium batteries aren't really a common thing is the huge uptick in price, most people not needing deep-cycle discharges in vehicles, and cost. Did I mention the cost? Yeah, they're still a thing because the cost over their lifetime is peanuts when compared to lithium. When people design engines that need batteries the $400 that you'd save from a $600 battery are easy enough to justify as huge cost savings...because the fractional increase in weight will not be as measurable as a $400 check going to the manufacturer...even more when you consider wholesale pricing.

 

[FoulOnWhite]

I use a Gel in my motorbike, tad lighter than lead, don't need topping up. Lithium weigh nothing but just don't seem to have the endurance of a gel/lead and in the UKs freezing winter, will probably be a bit better

 

[Fokker]

I use a Gel in my motorbike, tad lighter than lead, don't need topping up. Lithium weigh nothing but just don't seem to have the endurance of a gel/lead and in the UKs freezing winter, will probably be a bit better

LFE batteries function best in a ~140 to 40 F (60 to 4 C). Once you start getting to the bottom of that range, they start struggling to discharge enough for a starter right off of the bat.

 

[Shrek]

I thought cold cranking amps (CCA) was at 0°F (-18°C)
What are cold cranking amps | Batteries Plus

 

[A&P211]

There is no lead-acid cartel...only people making money off of things.

Lead-acid is useful if:
1) Cost is a factor
2) Weight is a minimal factor
3) Recyclability is a factor
4) Environment is a factor

To clarify, lead-acid retains better in lower temperatures, and higher temperatures. It doesn't have the highest capacity, but endures much better than lithium based upon sturdier construction (read: heavier plates). Likewise, lead-acid is easy to recycle. Pour out fluid, react with salt to pH balance, distill, good. Lead plates are easy to melt and restructure, and the lead salts can be chemically or mechanically converted back into plates. No explosive reactions when exposed to oxygen.

The reason that lithium batteries aren't really a common thing is the huge uptick in price, most people not needing deep-cycle discharges in vehicles, and cost. Did I mention the cost? Yeah, they're still a thing because the cost over their lifetime is peanuts when compared to lithium. When people design engines that need batteries the $400 that you'd save from a $600 battery are easy enough to justify as huge cost savings...because the fractional increase in weight will not be as measurable as a $400 check going to the manufacturer...even more when you consider wholesale pricing.

Lithium batteries have come down in price esp. for the pass 3yrs. I can get a 12v 100ah lifePO4 for about $190 with grade A cells.

 

[KLiKzg]

Lithium batteries have come down in price esp. for the pass 3yrs. I can get a 12v 100ah lifePO4 for about $190 with grade A cells.

Sure, but still it is not recommended.

I remember on project in which we used some German made battery, without air (vapor) outlet. Bad design, but it works.
In manual it said it needs 10~15°C inlet with 10L/min flow in order to keep the temps. down. So you practically need a thermal management unit (think of it as an air-con) for a battery!

Prices are one thing, but that does not mean those are good to be around engines (in motorbike or car) or in the back of the car (like on some BMW, where it goes up to 50~60°C on sun during summer or gets heated by exhaust pipe with similar 40~50°C under it). But it might be good for use on some home-battery project though!

 

[Wirko]

Reviews on longevity of many of the lithium batteries has been poor. A quality Lead/acid can last for 10 years and 6 of those years without appreciable performance degradation and the lithium batteries were only seeing 2-3 years before degrading.

Were those lithium batteries fully charged most of the time?

It's trivial to keep lead-acid in a condition that gives them a long life; simply, fully charge them whenever possible. Lithium is not that simple. First you have to decide what SoC is the best tradeoff between usable capacity and lifetime for your application. Then you need to have procedures in place to keep the batteries close to that SoC as often as possible. Probably it can only be done by going to 0% and 100% occasionally because voltage isn't a good indicator of SoC.

 

[Redwoodz]

I don't want to be a downer but have you guys seen what happens when lithium burns? What happens when you get in an accident and the battery main cables short together?

 

[Fokker]

I don't want to be a downer but have you guys seen what happens when lithium burns? What happens when you get in an accident and the battery main cables short together?

You're comparing a 3lbs battery to a ~1000lbs battery.

 

[eidairaman1]

You're comparing a 3lbs battery to a ~1000lbs battery.

Galaxy s7 comes to mind