Is Microsoft Deliberately Limiting AMD CPU Performance?

[ShrimpBrime]

and those servers scream.

Scream what? 10% performance loss, cause windows server OS?? (genuinely curious, I'm sure there's a point to the comment)

 

[Onasi]

I'm always happy to sling mud on MS for numerous reasons but I don't see what they have to gain by holding AMD down intentionally and I don't see how AMD is their competition. They are actually business partners because of their Xbox division.

Actually, this raises another good point. XBawks runs a modified version of Windows, as we all know. Are we, uh, claiming that MS deliberately sabotaged CPU performance of… their own consoles? Okay. And before someone starts backpedaling that this is a Windows 11 issue - MS has switched the XBox system kernel to Win 11 branch back in 2021. Currently, both 11 and XBox run kernel version 10.0.26100. This had been consistent since September 2021.

 

[thesmokingman]

I'm always happy to sling mud on MS for numerous reasons but I don't see what they have to gain by holding AMD down intentionally and I don't see how AMD is their competition. They are actually business partners because of their Xbox division.

Hmm....? You mean like what, Dell not selling AMD systems cuz I dunno, they had a backdoor deal with Intel. Stuff like that never ever happens right? Dell is in the business to make money right?

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Hmm....? You mean like what, Dell not selling AMD systems cuz I dunno, they had a backdoor deal with Intel. Stuff like that never ever happens right? Dell is in the business to make money right?

Is there a time line here? My DELL has an AMD 7530U 6c/12t processor installed. lol.

This thread is hard to follow!

 

[thesmokingman]

Is there a time line here? My DELL has an AMD 7530U 6c/12t processor installed. lol.

This thread is hard to follow!

I dunno if it's an age thing but a lot of posters are acting like shenanigans are unpossible! I thought the mere mention of an OEM not selling AMD would ring a bell with everyone but I guess not. And Microsoft has a long history of siding with Intel going back decades.

Intel to pay AMD $1.25 billion in antitrust settlement

AMD drops its litigation while Intel agrees to "abide by" a long list of prohibitions. And renewed patent cross-license agreement frees AMD to spin off chip manufacturing.

www.cnet.com

 

[eidairaman1]

I dunno if it's an age thing but a lot of posters are acting like shenanigans are unpossible! I thought the mere mention of an OEM not selling AMD would ring a bell with everyone but I guess not. And Microsoft has a long history of siding with Intel going back decades.

Intel to pay AMD $1.25 billion in antitrust settlement

AMD drops its litigation while Intel agrees to "abide by" a long list of prohibitions. And renewed patent cross-license agreement frees AMD to spin off chip manufacturing.

www.cnet.com

How quickly they forget.

 

[Solaris17]

genuinely curious

No you’re not. That and the following has to be as low as you can get. What do you know about high performance compute. Not limited to consumer hardware btw; or load types?

genuinely curious.

 

[Onasi]

I dunno if it's an age thing but a lot of posters are acting like shenanigans are unpossible! I thought the mere mention of an OEM not selling AMD would ring a bell with everyone but I guess not. And Microsoft has a long history of siding with Intel going back decades.

15 years is a long time. Today, none of the three major companies in question are the same. Not Intel, not AMD and not MS.

No you’re not. That and the following has to be as low as you can get. What do you know about high performance compute. Not limited to consumer hardware btw; or load types?

I know that MS is definitely keen on fucking over AMD for no reason. After all, the people say so. Only makes sense, not like they are offering EPYC based Azure VMs running Windows Server. Would be wild for them to do something like that.
Oh wait.

 

[Solaris17]

Oh wait.

Y’all are on that old information.

Iv evolved. I know the true enemy is AWS graviton and the rest of ARM. The clock cycles are designed to make businesses spend millions on upgrades. Wake up!

Don’t even get me started on big hard drive.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

I dunno if it's an age thing but a lot of posters are acting like shenanigans are unpossible! I thought the mere mention of an OEM not selling AMD would ring a bell with everyone but I guess not. And Microsoft has a long history of siding with Intel going back decades.

Intel to pay AMD $1.25 billion in antitrust settlement

AMD drops its litigation while Intel agrees to "abide by" a long list of prohibitions. And renewed patent cross-license agreement frees AMD to spin off chip manufacturing.

www.cnet.com

Oh yeah! Back when they where catching "Reviewers" left and right for the same thing.

I guess some things are just meant to be repeated.

How quickly they forget.

Not everyone is old lol. These threads need just that tad bit more context for younger viewers

Quickly, that article was written 09'..... XD

What do you know about high performance compute. Not limited to consumer hardware btw; or load types?

genuinely curious.

Well, I know there's Windows server operating systems and then there's windows 11 and windows 10 and windows 987654, 3.0 so forth.

Is the problem with the server OS you use with servers and server hardware? Did you find out there was no performance issue cause you are using W10 or 11 or something else??

An honest answer for you. Genuine as I could be on a forum anyways....
As far as modern server hardware for my at home uses, absolutely none. But if I was into "server" and "performance", I probably would consider EPYC over desktop parts actually. You said 7950X correct?

But I think our views on the word performance and how the word would be ascribed the definition in a use case scenario would differ.

So I will ask again now.

Have you noticed a difference in performance if looking at a Linux based server?

 

[Solaris17]

Have you noticed a difference in performance if looking at a Linux based server?

Which one?

My 24 node PROXMOX cluster has higher compute metrics than my windows cluster.

Cent machines take noticeably longer to complete tasks than even my windows VMs on my windows cluster.

Ubuntu VMs on the same windows cluster are faster still.

Nutanix on the college supercomputer I worked on handled storage faster than all my systems over FC.

My windows cluster handles fail over with much less resource utilization thanks to RDMA than the proxmox cluster.

Edit: I appreciate you and anyone else’s take on performance when it comes to overclocking where maybe results are comparable in some fashion between runs or even architectures. It seems people are bringing workload into the thread though. When you start talking about workload the rules change and it’s stubborn to think otherwise.

 

[Onasi]

Well, I know there's Windows server operating systems and then there's windows 11 and windows 10 and windows 987654, 3.0 so forth.

My brother in Christ, it’s all the same kernel. Windows Server isn’t some exotic beast that is completely separate from desktop SKUs. That was the whole point for MS to go all in on NT for everything in the early 2000s. I wish at least here, on the tech enthusiast forum, we’d look past marketing naming schemes and actually look at what makes an OS what it is. It’s all NT 10.whatever nowadays.

@Solaris17
Just fucking switch to Temple OS ya pussy, we all know it’s the one true option. Who even needs networking on your server? It’s more secure this way. Report performance from there.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Which one?

My 24 node PROXMOX cluster has higher compute metrics than my windows cluster.

Cent machines take noticeably longer to complete tasks than even my windows VMs on my windows cluster.

Ubuntu VMs on the same windows cluster are faster still.

Nutanix on the college supercomputer I worked on handled storage faster than all my systems over FC.

My windows cluster handles fail over with much less resource utilization thanks to RDMA than the proxmox cluster.

Well, I don't know. Suppose why I'm asking.

So the servers you drove out and worked on have a windows OS. I don't know which one. lol.

If it's say Windows 10 vs 11 on the same 7950X machine, which one seemed to perform better. Have you installed Linux and put it up agains the windows server os or the desktop os? I suppose I just looking for the evidence of AMD being dog'd by Intel and MS. You had mentioned the servers, so I did get curious.

(Pretty cool all the stuff you have and have worked with. I envy that)

My brother in Christ, it’s all the same kernel. Windows Server isn’t some exotic beast that is completely separate from desktop SKUs. That was the whole point for MS to go all in on NT for everything in the early 2000s. I wish at least here, on the tech enthusiast forum, we’d look past marketing naming schemes and actually look at what makes an OS what it is. It’s all NT 10.whatever nowadays.

@Solaris17
Just fucking switch to Temple OS ya pussy, we all know it’s the one true option. Who even needs networking on your server? It’s more secure this way. Report performance from there.

Well I don't believe because I can't see the evidence so..... yeah. I don't know anything much about windows server os, I've never had to use it lol. I suppose the old Twunk32 file is still there huh?

 

[eidairaman1]

Well, I don't know. Suppose why I'm asking.

So the servers you drove out and worked on have a windows OS. I don't know which one. lol.

If it's say Windows 10 vs 11 on the same 7950X machine, which one seemed to perform better. Have you installed Linux and put it up agains the windows server os or the desktop os? I suppose I just looking for the evidence of AMD being dog'd by Intel and MS. You had mentioned the servers, so I did get curious.

(Pretty cool all the stuff you have and have worked with. I envy that)


Well I don't believe because I can't see the evidence so..... yeah. I don't know anything much about windows server os, I've never had to use it lol. I suppose the old Twunk32 file is still there huh?

Thats going back, whats next, no drivetype autorun or loading a cd driver using a floppy?

 

[Onasi]

If it's say Windows 10 vs 11 on the same 7950X machine, which one seemed to perform better.

Any differences on properly setup systems would be margin of error. How do I know? I have three identical workstations at, well, work. All three with 7900X. Two run 10 Enterprise. One 11 Pro for WS. In all our scientific software they post broadly similar results time-wise on same samples of data.
No, I have no comparisons with Linux since none of said software works under it and any results obtained via emulation or VM would be obviously non-representative.

I suppose I just looking for the evidence of AMD being dog'd by Intel and MS.

There is no such evidence. It’s tinfoil hat bullshit. There is absolutely no sane reason for current day MS to sabotage current day AMD.

I suppose the old Twunk32 file is still there huh?

No. Not since… A while ago.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Any differences on properly setup systems would be margin of error. How do I know? I have three identical workstations at, well, work. All three with 7900X. Two run 10 Enterprise. One 11 Pro for WS. In all our scientific software they post broadly similar results time-wise on same samples of data.
No, I have no comparisons with Linux since none of said software works under it and any results obtained via emulation or VM would be obviously non-representative.


There is no such evidence. It’s tinfoil hat bullshit. There is absolutely no sane reason for current day MS to sabotage current day AMD.


No. Not since… A while ago.

Shit, there ya go then. Samples of data in comparison to each other is perfect benchmarking.

Yeah, see. I don't know shit about the OS. I just use it. Actually, when looking at performance, I want it as slim as possible. Less crap the better.

The problem with like DELL and HP laptops ect; is they put their software on top of windows stuff that already covers everything they would offer and this is what really kills performance of peoples operating systems. So Like I was saying to Solaris, our views on performance may have different aspects. I would probably lean towards as light of an operating system as possible for better performance. I don't know if Linux based OS would be better for this aspect. I have Ubuntu on a thumb drive for emergencies. But again, I just use it. I don't know much of the file system at all.

Thank you for the kick ass explanations.

 

[Solaris17]

I just looking for the evidence of AMD being dog'd by Intel and MS.

We run

Cooper Lakes
Icelakes
Sapphire rapids

and with AMD

Rome
Milan
Genoa

Server processors of this level have no ecores and we have recently started using more AMD in our custom designs.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ contracts

Thats how much random youtube videos concern multi billion $ corporations that run custom workloads.

 

[eidairaman1]

We run

Cooper Lakes
Icelakes
Sapphire rapids

and with AMD

Rome
Milan
Genoa

Server processors of this level have no ecores and we have recently started using more AMD in our custom designs.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ contracts

Thats how much random youtube videos concern multi billion $ corporations that run custom workloads.

I wonder how many other epyc am5 parts AMD will release, it might be the Middleground for me when I do an upgrade between Ryzen and Threadripper that is.

 

[Solaris17]

I wonder how many other epyc am5 parts AMD will release, it might be the Middleground for me when I do an upgrade between Ryzen and Threadripper that is.

They were pretty cool! They became available after I got my 7950x's infact, the 9 series in general came out like a week later, but I had already built the systems, so I didnt even get the CPUs on sale. Big sad. Atleast for the models currently released, they would have made no usability difference compared to what I got so I guess it doesnt really matter other than me feeling the fomo.

The chances of my getting back to the DC for another 5 years are slim. You always rack with a few extra disks and ram sticks in a bin then lock the cage, Any issues from now on I will have remote hands deal with.

Like the systems I replaced I wont be back out until I have outgrown them (usually memory pressure in virt environs, compute is way over rated).

 

[ShrimpBrime]

We run

Cooper Lakes
Icelakes
Sapphire rapids

and with AMD

Rome
Milan
Genoa

Server processors of this level have no ecores and we have recently started using more AMD in our custom designs.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ contracts

Thats how much random youtube videos concern multi billion $ corporations that run custom workloads.

Oh I am NOT a fan of e-cores in any way at all. In fact, I think it's a neat design "concept" that should have been left as just that. I have them, I don't use them. (for daily stuff). Not sure they would be useful in a server at all actually.

I figured you was into bit coining or something

 

[Onasi]

@eidairaman1
Probably the same deal as Zen 4 - functionally identical to desktop parts (same chips), just under EPYC naming scheme. I… vaguely remember those having 4 more PCI-e lanes? @Solaris17 can confirm or deny whether I am entering dementia. So, my guess would be 6 more chips - 8,12,16 cores at two power budgets. Zen 5 now, obviously.
Not sure how they are a middle-ground though, closer to desktop definitely, IMO. Wouldn’t pick as a substitute for TR for TR stuff.

 

[eidairaman1]

They were pretty cool! They became available after I got my 7950x's infact, the 9 series in general came out like a week later, but I had already built the systems, so I didnt even get the CPUs on sale. Big sad. Atleast for the models currently released, they would have made no usability difference compared to what I got so I guess it doesnt really matter other than me feeling the fomo.

The chances of my getting back to the DC for another 5 years are slim. You always rack with a few extra disks and ram sticks in a bin then lock the cage, Any issues from now on I will have remote hands deal with.

Like the systems I replaced I wont be back out until I have outgrown them (usually memory pressure in virt environs, compute is way over rated).

Reminds me of opteron and im liking it. Threadripper is unobtanium for me by sheer pricing

@eidairaman1
Probably the same deal as Zen 4 - functionally identical to desktop parts (same chips), just under EPYC naming scheme. I… vaguely remember those having 4 more PCI-e lanes? @Solaris17 can confirm or deny whether I am entering dementia. So, my guess would be 6 more chips - 8,12,16 cores at two power budgets. Zen 5 now, obviously.
Not sure how they are a middle-ground though, closer to desktop definitely, IMO. Wouldn’t pick as a substitute for TR for TR stuff.

 

[Solaris17]

having 4 more PCI-e lanes

yeah, though the 7xxx series had 28 by arch only 24 were usable. The kink is that most AM5 server boards dont have the connectivity for it to matter. Which is why atleast for me, it made no sense to wait, or replace. Most AM5 server boards are based on 650 chipset.

The machines in my rack arent running like Asus ROG gamer stuff.

 

[Onasi]

I have them, I don't use them. (for daily stuff). Not sure they would be useful in a server at all actually.

Akchually, if the new E-cores are as good as they are touted, a full on E-core only Xeon might not be a bad shout, hypothetically. For certain workloads, at least. And Xeon 6 do have E-cores, I believe. It’s Granite Rapids/Sierra Forest combo. So, seems like Intel does see a use for them.

 

[Solaris17]

Granite Rapids

is p core only.

Sierra Forest is the e core only. They arent mixing them yet, just running two different lines. but SFR iir can do 244cores which is wild.