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Anyone with true HDDs still around here?

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One issue I noticed with TrueNAS and Seagate ironwolf pro's was an unfortunate conflict of defaults.

For some reason any SMART request woke the drive up, every 5 minutes TrueNAS, polls the temperature via smart, the drives defaulted to a 2 minute timeout for head parking. So 2 minutes head parks, 3 minutes later it unparks, 2 minutes later it parks, 3 minutes later it unparks, repeat for infinity. I think I noticed after about 40k or so park cycles before fixing it. They would have hit rated park cycles prior to end of warranty period.
 
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I steer well clear of SMR drives in all of my TrueNAS Core arrays and check even more carefully after the WD Red fiasco in 2020.
Based.
Though I personally wont run a green because of its performance characteristics they havent dropped like flies in some time.
A lot of the WD Green lineup has shifted over to SSD so I'd be a little more than concerned if they continued to drop.
It also seems a little more than weird to find a WD Green/Blue HDD in this era. I still have a Blue but it's a 320GB and it's okay for now.
yup destoyed them. I remember flashing a few to blues back in the day to prevent premature failure when I came across an affected model
I was thinking about it earlier and vaguely remember WD doing exactly the same thing. The scandal of WD Greens being pure junk was so bad that a lot of units were flashed and mixed into the WD Blue lineup, effectively allowing the company to dump the rest of their product. People had no idea if their WD Blue purchase was really one of these original junkers until they started going kerchunk 2-3 years later. Scummy. I've outlined a 1-2TB range on these junkers but I'm not sure what became of the constant park-unpark behavior...
For some reason any SMART request woke the drive up, every 5 minutes TrueNAS, polls the temperature via smart, the drives defaulted to a 2 minute timeout for head parking. So 2 minutes head parks, 3 minutes later it unparks, 2 minutes later it parks, 3 minutes later it unparks, repeat for infinity. I think I noticed after about 40k or so park cycles before fixing it. They would have hit rated park cycles prior to end of warranty period.
Just like that! I remember it was REALLY aggressive in Windows like every 90-120s.
It could sit idle as an accessory drive but then the Windows Storage Service or whatever would randomly poll the drive for no reason and up it spins again.
I quickly wrote and chaindisk loaded a floppy image to run the WDIDLE3 tool with /D to disable it aaaaaaand

1727030423212.png


It's the gift that keeps on giving. The Unraid hit is era appropriate (2010-11?) for when these launched/failed but the EZRX series wasn't even on my radar. Damn.
when this saga was happening the only difference was the firmware regulating when the head was parking and the drive was spinning down.
That checks out with the WDIDLE3 stuff but I had no idea customers were flashing Green firmwares with stuff for Blue.
Were you guys picking a firmware to reflash or straight up editing? Something tells me there's a lot that can go wrong with all of that.
It at least almost looks like a dropped HDD! Yikes!
Physically? Maybe from the warehouse. The way my Green shipped was waaaaay better than the busted clamshell I got with my Toshiba and I trust it but the Green spent its entire life connected to a Sata 1 port on a Pentium 4 board that would hiccup and belch bits whenever the ICH5R chipset didn't like the extended read/write calls over the network. There's a pretty clear indication of failure when it happens but I had to retire the P4 from that point because it was chronically hot garbage and affecting everything connected to it in a 2U.

1727032052705.png

Actually, faulty SSDs, have the propensity to suddenly corrupt system files out-of-the-blue, possibly before you can even see the signs from the SMART.
Welp, that's reassuring. Nothing is safe. Guess when my 16GB Sandisk fails I'll have to replace it with a 16/32GB chipdisk just to continue where I left off...
Also 9 hits in one page/thread?
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This place is starting to remind me of old times. Ya'll wild.
 

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Benchmark Scores I dont have time for that.
That checks out with the WDIDLE3 stuff but I had no idea customers were flashing Green firmwares with stuff for Blue.
Were you guys picking a firmware to reflash or straight up editing? Something tells me there's a lot that can go wrong with all of that.
Nah you could get the blue firmware from WD like any other drive FW. The tool from the windows live environment didnt block you from flashing those models of greens.
 
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In 2010? What's period appropriate for that?

1727033205936.png


Vista? Win7? So I could launch Win7PE, mount the volume and reflash?
Was it one of those tools that we see more common with SSDs now that's like one touch update?
I can see that working out fine but reflashing the entire product ID sounds weird.
 

Solaris17

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Benchmark Scores I dont have time for that.
Was it one of those tools that we see more common with SSDs now that's like one touch update?
Yeah like the emergency live environment. And it was certainly a mistake. You couldn’t do it in later versions. Weather that was the tool or just drive model idr that was a decade ago.

In either case it was enough for me to avoid wd for a long stretch. Though tbh I’d never buy a green anyway.
 
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Never had a HDD or SSD die on me.
This also applies to me, at least if you go by natural failure and don't count the one that did fail due to my own negligence. Don't ask me about it, it's embarrassing.

Otherwise, the closest might be a 500 GB Samsung HDD, which may have failed, but I never ruled out whether it was the HDD or an OS installation gone awry, and I never bothered figuring it out since I was moving that PC to an SSD anyway. What was happening was there would be be a rare chance on startup where the HDD was just like many, many times slower than normal and the HDD light on the PC would stay on for the first many minutes. Half the time it was like that, and half the time it was normal/fast. It was a Windows 7 install for an HTPC so it wasn't bloated with startup things (it had very little on it), but that's not to say the OS wasn't responsible in some way. I just never figured it out.

So just accounting for natural failures, I have one "maybe" at best. For what I figure is around two dozen HDDs and half a dozen SSDs, I think no failure thus far is pretty good, but sample size will probably start working against me more soon. I treat all disks themselves as scratch disks so a failure of one will result in a waste of time at most, not a waste of data (at least no data that's irreplaceable, since that all exists in at least three locations).
 
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Never had a HDD or SSD die on me. The only odd experience I ever had was a WD Caviar Black HDD that was unusually noisy with the clicking but iirc that was normal.
I've had lots of HDDs die on me, some even within warranty period (I still didn't send it back because of the personal data on it). SSDs, though, never.
 

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I've had lots of HDDs die on me, some even within warranty period (I still didn't send it back because of the personal data on it). SSDs, though, never.

I can only assume that I've lived a blessed life. In all these decades the only piece of major hardware that I have lost was a Corsair HX PSU and it was only 3 years old. I've kept PCs far longer than a normal lifespan I think. I had a Dell at work that I used daily for 10 years and nothing ever went wrong with the hardware. I was glad when the IT dept replaced it when they implemented Windows 10 though. But really it was still fine for what I needed if I had to keep it. MS Office and an inventory database and tracking program for 84 locations.
 
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Still using a 2012 VelociRaptor on a daily basis in the PC I'm typing from, plus another one for cold storage. Going strong with zero errors. Also have a few retro systems with HDDs in the 80-500 GB range :)

velociraptor.jpg
 

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I’m replacing mine with SSD’s in my main rig as I can afford it, which is a slow process. I still have two of my game drives still HDD. I do have a 6 TB storage HDD attached and a 4TB backup HDD I attach for backups My server is all spinning disks (cmr reds) except the OS drive which is SSD.
 
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I can only assume that I've lived a blessed life. In all these decades the only piece of major hardware that I have lost was a Corsair HX PSU and it was only 3 years old. I've kept PCs far longer than a normal lifespan I think. I had a Dell at work that I used daily for 10 years and nothing ever went wrong with the hardware. I was glad when the IT dept replaced it when they implemented Windows 10 though. But really it was still fine for what I needed if I had to keep it. MS Office and an inventory database and tracking program for 84 locations.
That is a blessed life indeed. :)

I've had so many HDDs die on me that I've started to think of them like I do with brakes on my car. They might last a long time (or might not depending on usage), but when they go, I have to be ready to replace them.

I've currently got a 4 and an 8 TB Seagate Barracuda in my PC, but I'm thinking about getting a USB dock, taking them out to be used as externals, and getting an enterprise/NAS HDD for the PC. I'm hoping that they're a bit more reliable than these crappy Barracudas and WD Greens.
 
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Data - 500/1B/250/750 used HDDs from eBay
 
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I use these HDD's for backup's, video and music. 2TB Seagate HDD
 
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Benchmark Scores Its fast. Enough.
Then why are all my previous HDDs dead after 5-6 years when three 850 Pro's I got in 2015 are going to be 10 yo soon and work perfectly ?
I have nothing against HDDs, they're very useful for backups and data storage, but not as reliable. Unless you mean some server dedicated HDDs, then yes. I guess you need a good SSD to last you a decade or more too, so it's always down to the quality of the drive you're buying, be it HDD or SSD. Crappy HDD will fail faster than a cheapo SSD though.


Go look at backblaze and Google drive reports. Hitachi drives are some kf the most reliable. Higher temps aren't as bad as low temps.


Drive starts and stops are the hardest thing on them, once a drive is spinning the only wearing os the bearings unless it's gets bumped hard enough to crash the heads.
 
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Two Reds, about 8 years old, still in use in my Synology DS218J. They're mirrored, except when they aren't. Every time I look at them, they say "Hey there, we're dead!". It's been going on for years, so I rather don't look.
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1727042369055.png

1727042436179.png

1727042568510.png

Actions I took:
- stopped relying on them
- disabled the beeping in settings
- reinstalled DSM once because the whole damn thing really played dead (also became read-only a few days before that).

Interestingly, the HDD with 0 reallocated sectors likes to drop out of RAID, and the one with 400 reallocated sectors remains. Both have thousands in "Raw Read Error Rate" and "Seek Error Rate" attributes. This, and the "I/O Errors" in the log, makes me suspect that the disks are actually fine but the SATA interface has issues, either on the HDD side or on the NAS side.
Quick SMART tests always find both HDDs to be healthy. Read speed is still ~100 MB/s with large files.

The disks survived a lightning strike which killed my previous Synology in 2018. Maybe they are zombies now.

Previously, all my HDDs were Western Digitals, just the very first one was a 48-megabyte Seagate. Never had a problem with any of them.
 
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idk. But what i do know is ever since Samsung sold their side of the HDD business. Ive exclusively used Toshiba internal drives and only one has failed on me.
I just remember that bad luck with I think P300 drive. Got one 1 TB and it has died in 1 month lol. (SHH I tried to encrypt it or do wiping so it has got a lil stress lol)
 

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I use HDDs for backup. And on one server. SSDs are faster and more durable - BUT their kryptonite is data retention. Leave an SSD unpowered for years, and it will lose tons of data. They rely on being powered and the controller continuously scrubbing data.

HDDs have decades of data retention. Weak point: more fragile, especially when spinning. You do NOT want to bump when it is writing. And much slower than SSD.
 
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Well, I have multiple HDDs that pass basic tests required for data to not be corrupted. I also got a brand new 1 TB HDD this month.
I just tossed a 160GB WD something in the recycle bin a few days ago.
 
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That is a blessed life indeed. :)

I've had so many HDDs die on me that I've started to think of them like I do with brakes on my car. They might last a long time (or might not depending on usage), but when they go, I have to be ready to replace them.

Yeah this. HDD failure is still a regular occurrence.

I've been maintaining bulk storage backups since 75GB PATAs* were the biggest you could find. While early on my storage needs matched the pace of new drive capacity increases so drives were replaced prior to failure (2 yrs use or less), once I went to 4x1.5TB* those needs slowed enough that I would replace the first drive after failure and then replace the whole array after the second failure.

Being primarily dual drive for many years now and most recently down to single drive as my storage needs have flattened out, my MTTF is getting to the ~4 year range but still I have a new 20TB because a 5TB from a 4x5TB failed and it was time to buy a new primary drive, ratchet the current arrays down the stack, and cycle those old 5TB drives out.


* Bonus points for which drives I could be referring to.
 
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Yeah this. HDD failure is still a regular occurrence.

I've been maintaining bulk storage backups since 75GB PATAs* were the biggest you could find. While early on my storage needs matched the pace of new drive capacity increases so drives were replaced prior to failure (2 yrs use or less), once I went to 4x1.5TB* those needs slowed enough that I would replace the first drive after failure and then replace the whole array after the second failure.

Being primarily dual drive for many years now and most recently down to single drive as my storage needs have flattened out, my MTTF is getting to the ~4 year range but still I have a new 20TB because a 5TB from a 4x5TB failed and it was time to buy a new primary drive, ratchet the current arrays down the stack, and cycle those old 5TB drives out.
That's what I'm afraid of. My 4 TB drive is already acting weird, despite being only a couple years old. After giving it something to do (even just to access a folder), it stops sometimes, with usage pegged at 100% for nearly a minute before it actually starts doing the job. I'd gladly replace both this and my 8 TB with something like a 20 TB enterprise drive, I'm just afraid that reliability isn't gonna be much better. Or is it?

* Bonus points for which drives I could be referring to.
Hitachi Deskstar, perhaps? :)
 

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That's what I'm afraid of. My 4 TB drive is already acting weird, despite being only a couple years old. After giving it something to do (even just to access a folder), it stops sometimes, with usage pegged at 100% for nearly a minute before it actually starts doing the job. I'd gladly replace both this and my 8 TB with something like a 20 TB enterprise drive, I'm just afraid that reliability isn't gonna be much better. Or is it?


Hitachi Deskstar, perhaps? :)
A 4T drive likely uses SMR (Shingled Magnetic Recording). The tracks are so close together, that rewriting a sector damages adjacent tracks. The controller deals with this by dividing the media into "zones" similar to flash media "erase blocks". Sectors are only appended to a zone, and starts over when full, and the controller manages mapping. All this can make even small writes take a long time. I would avoid >2T HDD except for backup media (and I still prefer 2T for that application).
 
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That's what I'm afraid of. My 4 TB drive is already acting weird, despite being only a couple years old. After giving it something to do (even just to access a folder), it stops sometimes, with usage pegged at 100% for nearly a minute before it actually starts doing the job. I'd gladly replace both this and my 8 TB with something like a 20 TB enterprise drive, I'm just afraid that reliability isn't gonna be much better. Or is it?

Once a drive starts giving me attitude like that, it never stops and needs to be removed. I used to try isolating that file (because it houses a bad sector) and using the rest of the HDD but it has always been a harbinger of more bad sector quickly to come. When I replace the HDD, the new one tends to work for 5+ years and most are retired while still fully functional but yeah when running 2x4-disk arrays, first failures are going to come at the 3-4 year mark or earlier and as the otehr 3 in the array are already older, they get deprecated to backup duty and eventually retired.

I have not found reliability to be any worse recently but as I alluded to above, I now run fewer drives than before thanks to increased capacities so it's not a 1:1 comparison.

Hitachi Deskstar, perhaps? :)

Yes, the original DeathStar! :D Though I bought late enough in the cycle to know that buying the 45GB version was safe because it used a different internal design so did not experience the higher failure rates of the 60 and 75GB versions. Neither of mine failed before being retired. The 1.5TB HDDs I had were also notorious for high failures, as shown by BackBlaze in one of their earliest press releases.
 
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Here's my current drives.



I have another external drive that probably has statistics similar to the 8 TB drive here (it's the same drive and was purchased at the same time), just with less hours on it since I moved it out of the system and into an external enclosure a while back.

Not very high hours on most of them as these are all "newer" (relatively speaking, two or three years old at most) besides the 5 TB Black, which is from early 2017. Even my previous 4 TB drives probably aren't that old (mid-2020) and weren't used all that much before I replaced them with 8 TB equivalents. I feel bad that they, and a 1 TB SATA SSD, is just sitting unused. If I were get out my pair of 640 GB drives from the late 2000s though, I think those might be pretty up there in hours, but I stopped using them a few years ago.

My oldest SSD from 2012 (Crucial MX100 256 GB SATA) is in use in another PC and I think it's down to around half of its estimated life remaining, but it still works just great.

I probably do have a higher lean towards writes than most people, so while I don't need instant, on demand access to my storage drives, this is a reason why I shy away from SMR drives.
I can only assume that I've lived a blessed life. In all these decades the only piece of major hardware that I have lost was a Corsair HX PSU and it was only 3 years old. I've kept PCs far longer than a normal lifespan I think. I had a Dell at work that I used daily for 10 years and nothing ever went wrong with the hardware. I was glad when the IT dept replaced it when they implemented Windows 10 though. But really it was still fine for what I needed if I had to keep it. MS Office and an inventory database and tracking program for 84 locations.
Definitely lucky!

While I share your luck when it comes to storage drives, I've seemingly made up for it by having poor luck with other things. And most of my poor luck has been in recent years as opposed to my earlier years.

That might by coincidence. I do, after all, not buy hardware often so my sample size is low enough to be skewed heavily by random chance. But I've come away with the impression that quality might be slipping in recent years. Motherboards and graphics cards (but also a PSU, and not due to the PSU itself but a fan) are where my luck seems to be bad.

I started out buying used hardware in my earlier years (especially graphics cards), but motherboards and graphics cards are probably the two things I wouldn't chance buying used anymore. At least, not for my main system where I'd need to spend a lot.
Drive starts and stops are the hardest thing on them, once a drive is spinning the only wearing os the bearings unless it's gets bumped hard enough to crash the heads.
I remember decades ago, like in 2000s, this was a point of discussion/debate on some forums. "Is it better to let them run all the time compared to starting and stopping", and it seemed like there was reasoning for both sides, but no hard data showing which was better. It was probably a "it depends" thing, and I recall it was generally "agreed upon", if you want to call it that, that it probably didn't matter in most cases. I also recall that the "starting and stopping is more wear and tear" was specifically true of older hard drives (like, from the 1990s and earlier) and was wisdom that persisted through the years, despite maybe not being as applicable as back then. That's not a statement that it's not true, mind you, but it was something I read.

What I can say is I let my drives start and stop and they've been fine. I have no need to have my hard drives spinning constantly as it's added vibration, noise, and heat, and I don't need "instant, on demand" access to them regularly. And if there's a slightly higher risk of failure that way, then so be it.
A 4T drive likely uses SMR (Shingled Magnetic Recording). The tracks are so close together, that rewriting a sector damages adjacent tracks. The controller deals with this by dividing the media into "zones" similar to flash media "erase blocks". Sectors are only appended to a zone, and starts over when full, and the controller manages mapping. All this can make even small writes take a long time. I would avoid >2T HDD except for backup media (and I still prefer 2T for that application).
Very much depends on model, not just capacity.

For "portable" drives (2.5" external ones). 1 TB and below is likely CMR. 2 TB and up (they come in 5 TB or now 6 TB as the highest capacity) are all SMR.

For internal drives, all drives above 8 TB should be CMR I think? Most 1 TB and below should also be CMR. At 2 TB to 8 TB is where it's "it could be either" and it depends a bit on brand and model. For example, the Barracudas between 2 TB and 8 TB are all SMR I think. For Western Digital, it's more of a mix. The Blue 4 TB has both a CMR (EZRZ) and SMR (EZAZ) variant. At 6 TB, it's only SMR (this explains situations where you may notice the 6 TB Blue drive is barely more expensive than some 4 TB Blue drives, because that's probably the 4 TB CMR model, as CMR is more expensive than SMR). At 8 TB, the Blue is only CMR, as the 8 TB Blue is effectively the same drive as the 8 TB Red but renamed with some feature differences if I'm not mistaken (this explains the odd 5,640 RPM instead of 5,400 RPM at the 8 TB capacity), whereas the Seagate Barracuda at 8 TB is only SMR. In other words... it depends.

Both Western Digital and Seagate have, thankfully, gotten better at disclosing this information on their websites after the mess it caused years ago, where I think a Black and even some Reds were SMR.
 
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