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Alderon Games claims that substantial numbers of Intel 13th Gen and 14th Gen chips are defective

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We may have a mixture of issues, e.g. buildzoid when he switched his CPU back to spec manually (as well as using a new bios with baseline implemented) his problems were solved. His CPU he reported was also unstable from day 1.

We also have a confirmed TVB problem from Intel which they say is fixed by updating the microcode. Sadly I have not seen anyone at all, try to disable TVB in the bios to see if it stabilises anything, instead lots of people manually down clocking, but not toggling TVB specifically.

Its good you thinking rationally and also think it might be a mixture of issues. Wendell and Steve made the same point as well that the earlier bios reports cannot be set aside as they may well still be relevant.

I suppose another question, just came into my head, how many of these W680 boards have the TVB microcode update? As that is an actual confirmed problem. I would like to think Wendell did ask the datacentres that question.

That TVB update was targeted for release this month. No board has received it yet afaik.
 
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That TVB update was targeted for release this month. No board has received it yet afaik.

The Apex Encore just had it released.

1721067658475.png
 
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The Apex Encore just had it released.

View attachment 355241

Yeah it was scheduled to release sometime this week. This is probably the best supported MB around so doesn't surprise me it already received it. Z690s will likely see another month or two for a rollout and that's because Intel designated it an emergency update...
 

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Imagine buying a Apex to run at 150w TPD. Sad times.

On the topic of cache/ring. I have mine locked at 49x. It becomes very unstable at 52x+. Maybe my CPUs is a buggy one but it just happens to I lock all the voltages and multiplier. Some of those system crashes level1 was describing are signs are unstable core / voltages.
 
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Benchmark Scores They're pretty good, nothing crazy.
Imagine buying a Apex to run at 150w TPD. Sad times.

On the topic of cache/ring. I have mine locked at 49x. It becomes very unstable at 52x+. Maybe my CPUs is a buggy one but it just happens to I lock all the voltages and multiplier. Some of those system crashes level1 was describing are signs are unstable core / voltages.
Mine is at 49x as well, 50x unstable -- though it feigns stability for a good bit. Watch it be something stupid like a tvb issue.
 
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What's the default supposed to be? I never changed ring ratio on my CPU before, but I'm fairly sure I remember seeing it at 5000MHz on my 13900KS out of the box with the Ace but I don't recall exactly... my Apex still hasn't arrived :(

I got everything ready for the rebuild. Some Honeywell PTM7950, a new SSD, etc.
 

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For most of my life Intel had been the reliable brand. The set it and forget it brand. Just look at this mess. How tall does the mountain of evidence need to get before the walls of denial come crashing down?
My p4 wasnt set and forget, my Athlon XP, FX and the 5800 oem are
 
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What's the default supposed to be? I never changed ring ratio on my CPU before, but I'm fairly sure I remember seeing it at 5000MHz on my 13900KS out of the box with the Ace but I don't recall exactly... my Apex still hasn't arrived :(

I got everything ready for the rebuild. Some Honeywell PTM7950, a new SSD, etc.
Read one person say its 4.5 and another say its 4.6. Interestingly the guy who said its 4.6 says alder lake is much lower at 3.6.
 
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What's the default supposed to be? I never changed ring ratio on my CPU before, but I'm fairly sure I remember seeing it at 5000MHz on my 13900KS out of the box with the Ace but I don't recall exactly... my Apex still hasn't arrived :(

I got everything ready for the rebuild. Some Honeywell PTM7950, a new SSD, etc.
Should be 4.5 ghz out of the box for 13 and 14th gen. 12th gen is weird, it's 3.7 with the ecores on, boosts to 4.7 with ecores off, but generally speaking you shouldn't leave it at auto cause some bioses try to boost the cache even with the ecores on resulting in our lovely favorite blue screen.
 
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I just fired up XTU and cache clock briefly went to 4.69ghz. I definitely havent overclocked it.

4.79ghz even now.

1721116393947.png


Switched to an aggressive p-state profile, 4.8ghz (4.79) seems to be my max cache clock, it pegs there when preferred cores are at 5.4ghz.
 
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I suppose another question, just came into my head, how many of these W680 boards have the TVB microcode update? As that is an actual confirmed problem. I would like to think Wendell did ask the datacentres that question.
Supermicro released a BIOS release dated 24th June with 0x125 microcode (TVB Fix)

MSI released some on the 19th of June as Beta's, Gigabyte has at least one dated 2nd of July IIRC but have not mentioned it in the release note. Of course some may have extracted the microcode to use without a BIOS update but doesn't seem to have been in the wild very long even though the microcode itself is dated mid April, lots of testing I guess. Then Intel have said it's just another errata and not the main cause.

For most of my life Intel had been the reliable brand. The set it and forget it brand. Just look at this mess. How tall does the mountain of evidence need to get before the walls of denial come crashing down?
Not seeing any denial from Intel and it's not unusual for them to take their time although this seems exceptional long. Perhaps they already know the cause but are taking their time nutting out a best solution?
 
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Supermicro released a BIOS release dated 24th June with 0x125 microcode (TVB Fix)

MSI released some on the 19th of June as Beta's, Gigabyte has at least one dated 2nd of July IIRC but have not mentioned it in the release note. Of course some may have extracted the microcode to use without a BIOS update but doesn't seem to have been in the wild very long even though the microcode itself is dated mid April, lots of testing I guess. Then Intel have said it's just another errata and not the main cause.


Not seeing any denial from Intel and it's not unusual for them to take their time although this seems exceptional long. Perhaps they already know the cause but are taking their time nutting out a best solution?
Ok but we dont know if that update was deployed, if I was doing that content, that would be an obvious thing to find out.
 
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As latest microcode was stated as 0x123 then no it wasn't for the boards he investigated.

Our population of systems included 128gb (4x32gb) and 96gb (2x48gb) systems. The 2x48gb were stable with the W680 default power configuration (0x123 microcode was the latest available as of 7/10/2024 on W680) and 125W tdp. Multiplier limit of 53, memory speed cap of 5000 for 1dpc and 4200 for 2dpc.
 
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Makes me wonder if Intel are having their own version of Nvidia's 'Bumpgate' issues...
It's been 15+ years so we're due some sort of widespread manufacturing defect from someone.
 
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Could it be the case be that Intel 10nm is just not as robust as 14nm+++++++?
Intel Arrow Lake could be far more reliable since they are made on TSMC 3nm
10nm is definitely not as robust as 14nm, Intel had many years to tweak 14nm to as perfect as they could.
TSMC N3 might not fare too well with these 5.8-6.0GHz clocks either. Judged by Ryzens the efficiency curve is pretty vertical by then.
Either way, Intel produces CPU tiles in their own fabs. According to what Intel has said Arrow Lake CPU tile is on 20A and GPU tile is some TSMC N3 variant.
 
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Who's Alderon Games?
 
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Who's Alderon Games?
Apparently they make Path of Titans.

It doesn't really matter who they are. It's just another corroborating data point.

Buildzoid's latest video on the subject is quite informative. Multiple corroborating references used and a logical hypothesis explored.

 
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Buildzoid's latest video on the subject is quite informative. Multiple corroborating references used and a logical hypothesis explored.
A very rambly video.

tl;dr
P-cores, E-cores and ring are on the same voltage. When aiming for that 5.8-6.0GHz the voltage requested by cores can go pretty high - 1.5V or more - and while cores may be tested and validated to run with that, the ring might not be. Also reiterates that known findings from other places in terms of affected CPU models - i9, some i7, practically no i5 - and voltage curves - he is using Igor's articles - point at highest frequencies and high voltages coming from that being the cause.
 
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A very rambly video.

tl;dr
P-cores, E-cores and ring are on the same voltage. When aiming for that 5.8-6.0GHz the voltage requested by cores can go pretty high - 1.5V or more - and while cores may be tested and validated to run with that, the ring might not be. Also reiterates that known findings from other places in terms of affected CPU models - i9, some i7, practically no i5 - and voltage curves - he is using Igor's articles - point at highest frequencies and high voltages coming from that being the cause.
Yes, he always rambles. But it is also good context when he explains what he used to believe and why he is changing his perspective.

I "watch" his videos while driving, mostly.

Additionally, as he points out, ring degradation being the source makes sense for why the thing which seems to stop working or exhibits instability seems random.
 
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A very rambly video.

tl;dr
P-cores, E-cores and ring are on the same voltage. When aiming for that 5.8-6.0GHz the voltage requested by cores can go pretty high - 1.5V or more - and while cores may be tested and validated to run with that, the ring might not be. Also reiterates that known findings from other places in terms of affected CPU models - i9, some i7, practically no i5 - and voltage curves - he is using Igor's articles - point at highest frequencies and high voltages coming from that being the cause.
Which makes sense, on my 12th gen cache has degraded majorly (lost 400 MHz and had to increase voltage on top of that) by running 1.45 volts.
 
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A very rambly video.

tl;dr
P-cores, E-cores and ring are on the same voltage. When aiming for that 5.8-6.0GHz the voltage requested by cores can go pretty high - 1.5V or more - and while cores may be tested and validated to run with that, the ring might not be. Also reiterates that known findings from other places in terms of affected CPU models - i9, some i7, practically no i5 - and voltage curves - he is using Igor's articles - point at highest frequencies and high voltages coming from that being the cause.
My CPU reports a separate cache voltage and I thought ring and cache were same thing voltage wise, I guess I learnt something then, and 1.5v is the sort of voltage TVB sets, ever seen a i7 go as high as 1.5v? Although I do recall my i7 going high voltage out of the box (high 1.3s if I remember right) before I updated to a newer bios with different load line configuration.

I think the TVB fix and baseline as stock rollout cant happen quick enough for intel, issue of course though is vast majority of boards wont be up to date.

Will comment again after I watch his video.

--

Ok I got about halfway with lots of skipping as its a poorly presented video very repetitive.

Of course CPU's all degrade although usually its not a visible thing on chips that run at stock, I have seen a top end AMD FX chip being no longer stable at stock, that was in AMD's dark days where they were pushing chips hard.

Interesting to see the Igor graphs, something I havent seen before, so i9's push very high on voltages, i7's it seems can also push fairly high above 1.4v, I personally have never been comfortable with any voltage above 1.35v, 1.3-1.35v I will tolerate though albeit unhappily. The igor data suggests there is rampant under volting going on whether its users or board vendor side, as the voltages reported by igor are way higher than what reddit users typically report, still trying to figure out whats going on with ring voltage, buildzoid says its shared with vcore. I know it used to be on older gen chips, but I noticed on my current board, the ring voltage is separated in the settings, it is also separated on XTU. However I dont see any tools that report the live ring voltage as an absolute value. Looked at hwinfo and XTU and it isnt there. However is the following.
L2 e-core voltage offset - this I think is e-core cache voltage offset
CLR (cbo/llc/ring) voltage offset - this I think is ring, l3 and p-core cache voltage offset
IA voltage offset - should be core voltage offset

Also hwinfo reports some type of clock/voltage throttling on my ring, Ring max vr voltage icc max, pl4, is frequently getting triggered. Just using the web browser, desktop. Might well be related to my cache under volt.

The cache voltage offset, I reported ages ago on my system has a bigger impact than core voltage offset on heat and power consumption. So is under volted on my system, but interesting to see I cant read a absolute value for it.

According to this, ring voltage is LLC voltage not core voltage. https://edc.intel.com/content/www/u...atasheet-volume-1-of-2/002/ring-interconnect/
 
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Some hypothesis with the socket being the problem.

I think the Intel challenge is going to be how to react and the PR to the reaction.
In reality, Intel could ignore the whole thing and 99% of PC users will be unaffected or not know there is an issue. move on to the next node, take the PR hit now, Fix arrow lake. RMA bad units without pushback. "stop driving in the rear view mirror". I think this is where Intel will go (And I think it is correct).

And don't forget the L2 cache mention. With so much speculation there's a good chance someone might be right :)
 
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Some hypothesis with the socket being the problem.



And don't forget the L2 cache mention. With so much speculation there's a good chance someone might be right :)
You could at least link to the relevant post - https://semiwiki.com/forum/index.ph...n-core-i9-stability-problems.20614/post-72073 (by Ian Cutress, if you don't know who that is you are officially too young to be on these forums).
 
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Of course CPU's all degrade although usually its not a visible thing on chips that run at stock, I have seen a top end AMD FX chip being no longer stable at stock, that was in AMD's dark days where they were pushing chips hard.

Yeah CPU degradation, or any chip really, is a real thing and happens to all of them. There's just a reasonable amount of time expected of them to run stable at stock. These 13/14900K are just..taking the piss really. My 3950X has been running 24/7 since day one, even overclocked it all core within reasonable limits. Still clocks to the same max limit, still 100% stable. Someone was saying these degraded because they were in a server environment. Just...no. These should be designed to run 24/7 with full stability at stock for at least a few years.
 
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They should at least make it to the end of the warranty period lol.
 
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