(Anti) SFF fun house

[tabascosauz]

You definitely gotta have a faulty or incompatible part going on there
I mean it's also possible that asus just have some lemon designs from time to time and that's one of them - my x570-F has been fantastic, except for a thermal pad on the chipset that died way too fast
In my experience with about 20 ryzen systems in the last few years, every damn time theres issues it's the RAM.

Does the B-die you're using have odd or even timings? Gear down mode could be behaving differently between the boards altering the timings in a way the RAM doesnt like (and you dont give the impression of someone who'd settle for 2x8GHz 3200Mhz XMP)

But do you use APUs though? They behave very differently.

It's not the RAM. It hates my Rev.E Ballistix kit too, VSOC or timings just doesn't matter to the Strix. It still reboots all the time, as long as over 3600 or so I think. Which is not acceptable.

 

[Chrispy_]

In my experience with about 20 ryzen systems in the last few years, every damn time theres issues it's the RAM.

In my experience with about 200 Ryzen systems in the last few years, you are right.

But do you use APUs though? They behave very differently.

I do not. Presumably their IMC technology is broadly similar though?

 

[tabascosauz]

I do not. Presumably their IMC technology is broadly similar though?

Again, it has nothing to do with RAM. On the Aorus the Viper Steel kit works fine, and so does the Ballistix.

Desktop parts draw 15-20 amps SOC. APUs using iGPU draw 35-40 amps on the daily, haven't yet met a board that doesn't struggle with droop.

But that's irrelevant, because the Strix is not crashing under load and droop is fine. Old Aorus didn't do it, new Aorus doesn't do it, Impact didn't even do it with the damaged CPU, Gaming Edge Wifi didn't do it, ITX/ac didnt do it.

 

[Valantar]

Now, I've only built one APU system, but that one supports your "motherboards don't handle these well/motherboard vendors don't know how to deal with them" hypothesis - my cheapo Asrock board used to be able to run the iGPU at 2100 or 2200 and RAM at 3800, but (and this is with the reservation that I haven't spent significant time attempting to overcome this) after the B550 USB fix BIOS update it refuses to even boot at 3600 at very lax timings, and the iGPU doesn't get as high either. This is with Micron E that happily clocks past 4100 (but I kept getting IF/WHEA errors at those speeds, so the IMC was always the bottleneck - but now it's the board).

 

[tabascosauz]

but I kept getting IF/WHEA errors at those speeds

The 4650G is still in the B550M-ITX/ac, I think I left it on 4000CL16 but an old bios (1.50??). Been a while since I checked. That's pretty generous though that the board still lets you know through WHEA mine only either:

• works
• crashes
• "nah fam, i ain't posting today"
• "don't talk to me until you've reflashed"

There are certain bioses to avoid for the Aorus, but I couldn't find a single BIOS that the Strix liked.

 

[MIRTAZAPINE]

I never expected that APU could this problematic. It is a problem across all boards? Sounds like just going with an Low profile gpu from Nvidia may the way to go without dealing with the headaches but kinda defeat the purpose of an APU for compatibility. Avoid team red for LP gpu though currently I seem to have issue with my old Rx460 card having a black screen issue which regardless driver does not work well.

 

[tabascosauz]

I never expected that APU could this problematic. It is a problem across all boards? Sounds like just going with an Low profile gpu from Nvidia may the way to go without dealing with the headaches but kinda defeat the purpose of an APU for compatibility. Avoid team red for LP gpu though currently I seem to have issue with my old Rx460 card having a black screen issue which regardless driver does not work well.

I think I'm with you there on radeon drivers.......I'm 5/6 for Geforce drivers, and 2/5 for problem-free Radeon...

It's more that no one really gives a fuck about the APUs (or cares enough beyond running stock core and 3200CL16), so no one ever looks into bugs and poor performance, and we have to figure out how they work by ourselves since no expert cares to write about the APUs. Martin @ hwinfo has been doing a good job deciphering Vega iGPU but even now none of the power consumption metrics add up. Recently in AGESA they added separate TDC/EDC for SOC, but from what I can tell SOC domain power is still subsumed under package power, so.....another thing we have to figure out for ourselves.

Dunno. Maybe just tired. might be time to hop off this crazy bandwagon

 

[Valantar]

I kind of think this is a consequence of enthusiast use of a niche product from a smaller manufacturer - while AMD is massively richer now than even 2-3 years ago, they still likely have relatively limited QC and development support budgets, and they've shown for years now that APUs outside of OEM builds is too small a market for them to afford putting much of an effort into it. I keep hoping that will change, and I guess there's more of a chance of it happening when APU iGPUs at one point start actually rivalling entry dGPUs (680m coming close to mobile 1650 is certainly promising!), but even then we'll see. Hopefully with AM5 we'll see OEMs do more than stick a 1/1 doubled/2 phases on the SoC and be done with it, and see some more concerted efforts into BIOS and driver work as well. But who knows - this might still not happen - it's all up to AMD and how they prioritize their resources and how well they design their specs and guides for partners.

Still, FWIW I'm pretty happy with my 4650G build overall - it's just a shame that I'm no longer able to push that extra ~30% of gaming performance out of it that I used to get. Other than that it's dead stable for me (and that's even when accounting for me knocking off a tiny SMD from the board during assembly. Whoops! No idea where it came from either ). But it's still eminently power efficient and more than snappy for HTPC use.

 

[Mussels]

But do you use APUs though? They behave very differently.

It's not the RAM. It hates my Rev.E Ballistix kit too, VSOC or timings just doesn't matter to the Strix. It still reboots all the time, as long as over 3600 or so I think. Which is not acceptable.

No i don't have the APU's - i definitely believe they could have worse/shitty BIOS support on some boards easily enough

I mean the fact that you have DDR4 4000 says a lot, that aint gunna work out of the box for anyone

 

[Valantar]

No i don't have the APU's - i definitely believe they could have worse/shitty BIOS support on some boards easily enough

I mean the fact that you have DDR4 4000 says a lot, that aint gunna work out of the box for anyone

The thing is, AMD's APU IMCs are fantastic - there was a period when Renoir (IIRC) was setting DDR4 world records, and generally outperforming Ryzen CPU IMCs. The problem isn't the APUs themselves, but clearly something about either the boards or the BIOSes.

 

[tabascosauz]

I mean the fact that you have DDR4 4000 says a lot, that aint gunna work out of the box for anyone

Where'd I say I had DDR4-4000?

These are APUs. They barely need 1.1V for 2000MHz. A 5700G that can't even hit 4000 1:1 single rank is like a 5800X that quits at 3200.

 

[ThrashZone]

I appreciate a good Asus BIOS as much as the next guy but I don't feel like Asus puts in any effort for their lower-than-ROG. The AM4 Strix VTTDDR only going in the ↑ direction was a funny one

Didn't like the B550-I Strix but it was the only alternative - the ASRock not suitable, the lower end ASRock I have and it's ass, the MSI I had and it didn't understand APUs either. In the end I disliked the Strix for the exact issues I thought I would - the socket placement causing problems, Richtek VRM, the M.2 stack is weird and not very good, terrible rear I/O, not-preinstalled rear I/O makes USB-C hard to plug in, no fan control for VRM fan (the two on the Impact are controllable) etc.

ROG is good, but man the prices just keep going up

Hi,
Yeah I probably bought my last asus rog board with the z490 apex at 400.us which is my limit actually returned a 600.us formula for it
Good thing is I have plenty of systems x99/ x299/ z490 and shouldn't need a new one for some time besides maybe a laptop

AMD has improved memory wise quite a bit on 5k series another friend has one and is enjoying it he was prior intel guy
Prior turn offs doing a amd build were driver/ memory and gpu compatibility issues

Looks like you should be doing mother board reviews

 

[Mussels]

Where'd I say I had DDR4-4000?

These are APUs. They barely need 1.1V for 2000MHz. A 5700G that can't even hit 4000 1:1 single rank is like a 5800X that quits at 3200.

I could have misread, but i saw DDR4 4000 mentioned in there somewhere

the APU's might be able to do it, doesnt mean the boards are capable

 

[tabascosauz]

I could have misread, but i saw DDR4 4000 mentioned in there somewhere

the APU's might be able to do it, doesnt mean the boards are capable

4000 is the 4650G, I don't push it anymore since it's for a family member now.

It's not board topology limitations - when the board itself is struggling to train and maxing out the symptoms are very different. Regardless:

• 4-layer full size boards do about 4000-4600 SR. 6-layer ITX is equivalent.
• 6-layer full size boards do anywhere from 4800-5100+ SR. 8-layer ITX is equivalent, unless botched like some of ASRock's boards.

Strix is rated 5100 for the halo $900 kit of Ballistix Max with Rev.B. Yes, that's with looser timings so less UMC load, but it's also QVL'd for a variety of high freq B-die up to 4800CL18.

Heck, my own 4400CL19 Vipers are on the QVL along with a billion other 4400CL19 B-die kits..........and so are my 4000CL18 Ballistix Max

So it's pretty clear it's to do with how Asus programmed or designed the Strix. Outwardly it doesn't have any visible trouble with maintaining VSOC or setting voltages properly......but it crashes like it does.

 

[tabascosauz]

In all fairness - a picture probably better demonstrates that these are not the same animal as a 5600X/5800X. After an hour of some gaming:

 

[Valantar]

In all fairness - a picture probably better demonstrates that these are not the same animal as a 5600X/5800X. After an hour of some gaming:

View attachment 247622

Yeah, if that's stuck with a single-phase VRM, that's not going to be a happy chip. It would be really nice if AMD made an iGPU-specific voltage rail for AM5, even if it would drive up board prices a tad. Or just encourage 2-3-4-phase vSOC VRMs, of course.

 

[tabascosauz]

It would be really nice if AMD made an iGPU-specific voltage rail for AM5

The 2 x 90A setup for most high end VSOC is okay in terms of raw output. It's more down to the controller and implementation.

There is already VDDCR_GFX, but it might as well not exist because it can only ever be two things: Intel mode (fixed volts for fixed clock, slaved to VSOC) or variable boost (not user-controllable except Graphics PBO/CO limited to 2200MHz). AMD likes keeping their boost designs outside of user control so

iirc intel has a separate rail but it's usually a crappy 1-phase affair, and boards with no display output don't even have the 1-phase. AM5 chiplet iGPU looks to be a very crappy product in there just to provide display output, so it might be similarly hard to convince board makers to invest more into their iGPU support just for the more graphically powerful APUs

 

[tabascosauz]

Not much going on as of late - more outdoors = more cranky when indoors

New 32" panel. Wanted to get some more real estate for DCS, settled for a Gigabyte M32Q. A good 40-43" range option would have sealed the deal, but there were none.

• 32" 32GP850 - too expensive for basically equal to M32Q, as usual for LG horrible I/O and no internal PSU
• 32" M32U - too expensive
• 43" FV43U - too expensive atm, also kinda big of a panel to be playing the Gigabyte lottery on
• 43" Sony X80K - 60Hz
• 43" Sony X85K - priced okay but only for console gaming, blurry at 120Hz due to Mediatek
• 55" LG NANO90 2021 - priced okay but decided against the open box
• 55" Sony X90K - too expensive
• 55" Hisense U8G - priced okay but blurry at 120Hz due to Mediatek
• 55" Samsung Q80 - too expensive

I thought it would be a sidegrade at best from 27" to 32", but the size increase is pretty damn noticeable. Only drawback is that the scaling is very different between two panel sizes, so can't appease both panels at once (125% too big on 32", 100% too small on 27", mixing scaling causes blurry apps). At this size on flat panel the corners are beginning to darken, but it's still bearable. I can see why they don't make many 34" flat panels.

Much bigger irl than pictures convey.

Also, new controller. Unrailed is a great game for controllers and local coop.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Maddening I say

 

[P4-630]

At least you have proper controllers.
(unlike sony controllers with the sticks on wrong positions which just doesn't work....)

 

[tabascosauz]

At least you have proper controllers.
(unlike sony controllers with the sticks on wrong positions which just doesn't work....)

Unfortunately, all of japan seems to disagree with us......

I've got nothing against Sony, just that I can't get used to their layout. When I'm in the Abyss grind I'll work the D-pad for character switching with my right thumb so I don't have to stop moving - not really possible on Sony.

Also proprietary internal battery yuck. Would much rather have a set of eneloops like I do now that I can rotate in and out and also pop in any other device I need.

 

[Mussels]

Not much going on as of late - more outdoors = more cranky when indoors

New 32" panel. Wanted to get some more real estate for DCS, settled for a Gigabyte M32Q. A good 40-43" range option would have sealed the deal, but there were none.

• 32" 32GP850 - too expensive for basically equal to M32Q, as usual for LG horrible I/O and no internal PSU
• 32" M32U - too expensive
• 43" FV43U - too expensive atm, also kinda big of a panel to be playing the Gigabyte lottery on
• 43" Sony X80K - 60Hz
• 43" Sony X85K - priced okay but only for console gaming, blurry at 120Hz due to Mediatek
• 55" LG NANO90 2021 - priced okay but decided against the open box
• 55" Sony X90K - too expensive
• 55" Hisense U8G - priced okay but blurry at 120Hz due to Mediatek
• 55" Samsung Q80 - too expensive

I thought it would be a sidegrade at best from 27" to 32", but the size increase is pretty damn noticeable. Only drawback is that the scaling is very different between two panel sizes, so can't appease both panels at once (125% too big on 32", 100% too small on 27", mixing scaling causes blurry apps). At this size on flat panel the corners are beginning to darken, but it's still bearable. I can see why they don't make many 34" flat panels.

View attachment 259169

Much bigger irl than pictures convey.

Also, new controller. Unrailed is a great game for controllers and local coop.

I've been looking into new screens myself as VA blur occasionally causes me eye issues

As annoyed as i am with gigabyte as a company, the M32U and M32Q really do seem the best 32" options out there at present, depending if you want 1440p or 4K


My secondary is the M32QC (the VA panel variant) and overall its great - except for needing specific settings to minimise the VA blurring, which honestly only really happens with black/white mixes while scrolling, like some fonts on websites


Sigh if the price on the M32U wasn't so high...

Then theres the FI32U, which i'm honestly not sure what's worth the higher price - is it freesync vs adaptive sync? The pretty much useless sabre audio?

Edit: random observation here, but it's very telling that the FI32U has the same response times at 144Hz as it does at 60Hz.
Have we reached a point where panels other than OLED cant keep up, and we're seeing a semi placebo effect from increased framerates decreasing render latency and input latency, but not altering anything for the actual display?

Despite being almost identical, thee firmwares seem to change the way they work drastically?

FI32U on the left, M32U on the right.
M32U has better response times but has overshoot, which basically seems like the overdrive setting is cranked up one setting
FI32U is recommended for overdrive off, while M32U is recommended to 'picture'

Even knowing a firmware update fixed the 60Hz input lag, look at the difference a dodgy firmware makes to input latency...
12.5ms vs 21.4ms at 60Hz?

Oh i'm doing that "researching into oblivion" thing again woops

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

I thought it would be a sidegrade at best from 27" to 32", but the size increase is pretty damn noticeable.

Try 3x 32" QHD panels

True immersion.

 

[tabascosauz]

I've been looking into new screens myself as VA blur occasionally causes me eye issues

As annoyed as i am with gigabyte as a company, the M32U and M32Q really do seem the best 32" options out there at present, depending if you want 1440p or 4K

Sigh if the price on the M32U wasn't so high...

Then theres the FI32U, which i'm honestly not sure what's worth the higher price - is it freesync vs adaptive sync? The pretty much useless sabre audio?

Edit: random observation here, but it's very telling that the FI32U has the same response times at 144Hz as it does at 60Hz.
Have we reached a point where panels other than OLED cant keep up, and we're seeing a semi placebo effect from increased framerates decreasing render latency and input latency, but not altering anything for the actual display?

@Mussels holy cow the pricing

I waited a while for the price to come down before buying the M32Q at $490 ($540 AUD equivalent). Cheaper than it is in the US atm. That M32U pricing is just absurd. And extra $200 for FI32U is insanity. It's just a M32U with a "better" stand, less I/O, less useful KVM and some "gaming features". Here at about the same price is the massive FV43U instead.

To the response time at 60Hz, most of these monitors have respectable 60Hz response that isn't far behind max native Hz, but it doesn't change much. Your actual input lag at 60Hz will still be higher even with framecapping, Reflex on Boost, etc.

On the M32Q I've just left it on Picture Quality and let it blur the way it wants. BFI was just too jarring even on Balance setting. As long as input lag is good enough, I don't mind the blur.

Try 3x 32" QHD panels

True immersion.

i m m e r s i o n

It makes for a pretty sim pit on r/hoggit, but I'm not sure how helpful uber wide but super short screen would actually be in A-A mission. For real immersion I'm guessing everyone's answer will be the option that starts with V and ends with R. The Reverb G2 is cheaper than the M32U anyway.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

i m m e r s i o n

It makes for a pretty sim pit on r/hoggit, but I'm not sure how helpful uber wide but super short screen would actually be in A-A mission.

Whaaa?

Time to jump on Reddit to figure out what the thunder you are taking about...

I actually use it for productivity - immersion into dozens of PDF's and emails at once.