Intel ATX 3.0 PSU standard has more power for GPU's (article)

[Bill_Bright]

gezz switching two wires is sooooo bad

Actually it is - when the only reason to do so is to make your product proprietary, forcing buyers of those products to buy only your proprietary replacement parts and upgrades from you, and at a higher cost.

Yes, it may have only been 2 wires, but that's all it takes to make a product proprietary and noncompliant with industry standards. And to the point here, for 99.9% of the users out there, that was more than enough to stop them from buying [better!] 3rd party replacement (or upgrade) parts.

Yes, it was two wires from the PSU, but also the circuit traces leading to the motherboard's main power connector were switched too. What may seem simple to an enthusiast or certainly a technician was an unsurmountable obstacle to millions and millions of other buyers whose proprietary OEM PSU failed, or who wanted to upgrade their graphics solution.

Adapters are fine - as long as they are included and not something extra consumers are required to buy. Adapters are common during transitional periods and are typically included until "the new standard" is widely implemented. History has shown this repeatedly. Keyboards used to come with USB to PS/2 adapters until USB became the standard. VGA to DVI adapters were common, then DVI to HDMI. MOLEX power to SATA power. Drives used to come with bay adapters when drives started becoming smaller. Ect., ect.

And the fact an adapter was included clearly indicates they didn't ignore the standard. The point all along - thank you once again for proving my point.

So history totally agrees. Are there exceptions? Of course! But exceptions don't make the rule or make moot the entire point - in spite of your made up, bogus and totally inaccurate "golden rule of statistics".

we are done here.

That is good.

The new standard will certainly sell more PSU's.

Maybe. If sales increase, I am not sure the increase will be due to the new standard - at least not to a significant degree. Who, at least at first, will be buying these more power hungry cards? I think mostly serious gamers and other enthusiasts wanting the latest and greatest to boost their graphics performance, right? And a larger PSU is commonly required anyway when upgrading graphics just for the greater power demands - not for a new standard. So yes, PSU sales my go up, but I think mostly just to support a more hungry card - something needed regardless the new standard.

I guess we will have to wait and see on that one.

 

[The red spirit]

RIP to anyone who bought an expensive PSU, thinking it will be decent for decade.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yeah, that may be a problem for some - IF they wish to upgrade to a new graphics solution that requires the new PSU. But just because a new standard comes out, that does not mean suddenly our old hardware is obsolete or inadequate.

The trick is to stop looking at what is new once you buy your current stuff. Then you won't know what you are missing!

 

[The red spirit]

Yeah, that may be a problem for some - IF they wish to upgrade to a new graphics solution that requires the new PSU. But just because a new standard comes out, that does not mean suddenly our old hardware is obsolete or inadequate.

Frankly, I don't ever just junk a whole tower. I gradually upgrade it. For me new ATX standard is more like death sentence. By the time I will want or need to upgrade my machine, I will likely new PSU for new graphics card. Who knows if it will be compatible with motherboard. Of course new motherboard won't take old CPU, RAM and cooler and since I reused SATA SSDs I will most likely won't find SATA at all. For me old standard worked perfectly fine and I don't even need or want e-waste (sorry, but I think that RTX 3090 is e-waste, certainly not because it is slow, but due to that new stupid power connector requirements, stupid amounts of power needed and of course amount of heat exhausted. I already have to use lower TDP settings with RX 580 so that in summer it doesn't roast my legs and I certainly wouldn't appreciate more heat, therefore I don't want 60s big block V8 fuel economy equivalent in my PC). My PC at full blast consumes around 200-250 watts and even a modest 500 watt unit is frankly mostly wasted anyway. Sure my hardware is perfectly up to date right now and I'm plenty happy with it, but future developments concern me. I can only imagine how shit some people must feel, who believed advice that "PSUs don't become obsolete for decades" and "good PSU will be fine for multiple hardware upgrades" kind of crap.

Frankly this quote makes me lol:
"In any case, you will need 1800-2000W PSUs to exploit 600W graphics cards fully"

I really don't think that most people will want that. It's actually a lot of watts. That's kettle, lawnmower, 3 vacuum cleaner or even fucking low end motorcycle numbers. 2kW for Jensen's shite? He can feck off. I really hope that there will be a massive community pushback against crap like this. if community fails, I would be super glad if EU bans them. They already erased proprietary connector nonsense and actually did something to reduce internet tracking, it's time to work on PC efficiency too.


BTW another victim of such future-proofness claims are cases. While yeah you can use whatever case from even 90s todays, things have changed a lot. Not only 80mm fans became obsolete, but nobody has 5.25" drives anymore (except me), now we need SSD slots, top mounted PSUs in era of 300 watt GPUs and 250 watt CPUs is really bad idea and just in general old cases were awful at cooling, not to mention that they were extremely restrictive about what cooler you can fit into them. And of course, now there are many other QoL improvements like fan filters, thumbscrews, tool-less HDD bays, rubber vibration dampeners and up to date I/O. So while you most likely can re-use case from decade or two ago, let's be honest, even 6 year old case will be missing quite a few of these things and even older cases will be missing a lot more things that they could be just called obsolete then.

 

[looniam]

For me new ATX standard is more like death sentence. By the time I will want or need to upgrade my machine, I will likely new PSU for new graphics card. Who knows if it will be compatible with motherboard

there is no reason to believe that, if you read the specs where intel addresses *why* they are updating 14y/o specs:

but some will tell you different

Frankly this quote makes me lol:
"In any case, you will need 1800-2000W PSUs to exploit 600W graphics cards fully"

that's cuz intel:

you are more than welcome to look at the specs themselves to come to your own conclusion. but there is nothing i see that breaks backward compatibility:

 

[The red spirit]

there is no reason to believe that, if you read the specs where intel addresses *why* they are updating 14y/o specs:
View attachment 251296
but some will tell you different

Then it doesn't sound bad, more like I deeply don't give a shit about it. But either way, I will believe it when i see it.

that's cuz intel:
View attachment 251297

And in this case Intel just does what market demands, so it's just nV and AMD making new rules with their inefficient crap and nVidia only with launching card with that nonstandard connector for no reason.

 

[looniam]

And in this case Intel just does what market demands, so it's just nV and AMD making new rules with their inefficient crap and nVidia only with launching card with that nonstandard connector for no reason.

recently yes, however both NV and AMD adhered to pci-sig specs in their reference designs for years, it was the AIB partners who broke specs long before; throwing out efficiency for "we are #1 (among the same chips)" marketing.

granted both NV and AMD could have limited that- but the consumer backlash. there is no winning.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Frankly, I don't ever just junk a whole tower. I gradually upgrade it.

This is actually a major reason I build my own computers. In the long run, it is much less expensive because I can let my computers "evolve" over several years to stay current - or at least always closer to the bleeding edge. This is another reason to go with PCs instead of laptops too - but that's for a different discussion.

For me new ATX standard is more like death sentence. By the time I will want or need to upgrade my machine, I will likely new PSU for new graphics card. Who knows if it will be compatible with motherboard.

I don't agree with that. It will not be a death sentence. The new PSUs will support your old motherboard. PSU makers are not suddenly going to stop supporting 100s of millions of systems already out there. Look how long PSUs makers kept supporting legacy 4-pin molex connectors. Same with 20-pin main power connectors after 24-pin became standard. The extra 4-pins could easily be split off.

since I reused SATA SSDs I will most likely won't find SATA at all.

Huh?

but nobody has 5.25" drives anymore (except me)

That's not true - yet. Some still like having internal optical drives and some like putting system monitors, RGB controllers and fan speed controllers in their 5.25 drive bays. A better example illustrating the problem with cases becoming obsolete would be integrated USB support. Many older cases only support USB2.0, not USB3.x or -C.

But either way, I will believe it when i see it.

And yet you believe, without seeing it, that this new PSU standard "WILL" suddenly create a "death sentence" and make all your other hardware obsolete? Even though past history has shown over and over again that legacy support will be there for years? Sorry, but that does not make sense.

That last time something like that happened was way back in the late 1990s when the entire AT Form Factor standard for cases, motherboards and PSU was replaced by the ATX Form Factor standard. But that change was supported by the entire industry because it was sadly needed.

 

[80251]

Why all this sudden worry about power excursions? When SLI and Crossfire were still viable weren't there regular power excursions to 600 Watts and more by the videocards being used?

 

[sneekypeet]

Why all this sudden worry about power excursions? When SLI and Crossfire were still viable weren't there regular power excursions to 600 Watts and more by the videocards being used?

As I said earlier, it became more prevalent with the issues that came up with 3-series cards powered by PSUs that "should" have been able to cope. We are talking milliseconds here. Read up on the specs, its all there in print. It isn't just simple power draw overall.

 

[R-T-B]

As I said earlier, it became more prevalent with the issues that came up with 3-series cards powered by PSUs that "should" have been able to cope. We are talking milliseconds here. Read up on the specs, its all there in print. It isn't just simple power draw overall.

Indeed, it's a recent issue with the latest cards. That's why they are making a new standard.

 

[The red spirit]

This is actually a major reason I build my own computers. In the long run, it is much less expensive because I can let my computers "evolve" over several years to stay current - or at least always closer to the bleeding edge. This is another reason to go with PCs instead of laptops too - but that's for a different discussion.

Laptops exist for entirely different reason. To be portable and to be able compute on the go. And up until 2012-2014 you could actually upgrade CPU, RAM, storage, even screen or MXM GPU. And if you were weird even optical drive or wifi card. And frankly since laptops aren't for gaming or for heavy tasks, they don't need much RAM or CPU to be decent. IMO today most people would be fine with Pentium N6000 and as bonus they get insane battery life, which matters a lot for mobility aspect. I personally own desktops mostly for gaming and trying out some hardware once in a while. If I didn't care about gaming, I most likely would be fine with Intel NUC or Dell micro.

That's not true - yet. Some still like having internal optical drives and some like putting system monitors, RGB controllers and fan speed controllers in their 5.25 drive bays. A better example illustrating the problem with cases becoming obsolete would be integrated USB support. Many older cases only support USB2.0, not USB3.x or -C.

I'm aware of that, but for better for for worse their owners are becoming niche and finding high end case today with ODD bays is becoming really hard.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Laptops exist for entirely different reason. To be portable and to be able compute on the go.

Not my point. Just because they are meant to be portable, there is no technical reason why there could not have been a thriving self-build industry for laptops too EXCEPT FOR THE FACT, the big makers never agreed on an industry standard form factor like they did with PCs. The ATX Form Factor is what allows us to put a Gigabyte/Intel motherboard with a MSI graphics card into a Fractal Design case and connect them to Samsung monitor - then tomorrow, swap in an ASUS/AMD motherboard, EVGA graphics and still be good to go. Why? Because all the players agreed on voltages, physical dimensions, connectors etc.

The clone makers of the day (Northgate, Zeos, Gateway, Dell, HP, etc.) wanted to muscle in on the IBM PC's market share, so they got together with Intel, MS and others and agreed on AT then ATX. There was no such thing as a "laptop" then - they had 40lb "luggables" like the Osborne and Compaq but that's about it. By the time truly mobile laptops came about, the "VCR vs Betamax" wars (only with laptops) already had entrenched sides with their own proprietary hardware none of the sides were willing to give up.

If only the makers agreed on a small handful of laptop shapes with standard mounting holes, standard voltages, and 2 or 3 only, battery sizes. It would be amazing for self-builders to have a plethora of laptop components we could assemble ourselves. But no way today that will ever happen.

their owners are becoming niche

True - which is why I said "yet". I personally have several hundred DVD and Blu-Ray movies and over 600 CDs. While I have transferred/converted all my favorite tunes, I still occasionally toss in a movie. I'm pretty sure I am not that unique - "yet".

 

[Vayra86]

LOL. No. If there wasn't a demand, there would not be the product.

The sign of a good sales pitch is that afterwards, you've created a demand where there wasn't one.

Why all this sudden worry about power excursions? When SLI and Crossfire were still viable weren't there regular power excursions to 600 Watts and more by the videocards being used?

We've just lived 1 (2?) generations where peak power was a likely cause of problems both for AIBs and for users.

 

[Bill_Bright]

The sign of a good sales pitch is that afterwards, you've created a demand where there wasn't one.

That's true. Many products no one needs fly off the shelf because of good marketing. Any one want to buy a pet rock? Only $2 plus $10.99 S&H.

But wait! That's not all! Order now and I'll throw in 2 more pet rocks for free! Just pay separate S&H.

 

[R-T-B]

That's true. Many products no one needs fly off the shelf because of good marketing. Any one want to buy a pet rock? Only $2 plus $10.99 S&H.

But wait! That's not all! Order now and I'll throw in 2 more pet rocks for free! Just pay separate S&H.

"Handling." No one handles my pet rock.

 

[The red spirit]

Not my point. Just because they are meant to be portable, there is no technical reason why there could not have been a thriving self-build industry for laptops too EXCEPT FOR THE FACT, the big makers never agreed on an industry standard form factor like they did with PCs. The ATX Form Factor is what allows us to put a Gigabyte/Intel motherboard with a MSI graphics card into a Fractal Design case and connect them to Samsung monitor - then tomorrow, swap in an ASUS/AMD motherboard, EVGA graphics and still be good to go. Why? Because all the players agreed on voltages, physical dimensions, connectors etc.

Correct and to add to that, it seems that way too many laptops have absolutely horrendous screens. I have no idea why, but they almost always have those abominable 60% sRGB screens. Only if you give tithe to laptop gods you get something that doesn't look like it's from 90s and can actually display all colours of industry standard. IMO there's no reason today even for cheaper display to not be able display at least 90% sRGB. It's supposed to be standard anyway. Despite there being really shit desktop displays, basically all of them actually cover sRGB a lot better, even cheap TNs. Thankfully, today at least we don't have sub 150 nit with 150:1 contrast ratio crapola, but that was normal in early 10s in anything that wasn't stupidly overpriced.

The clone makers of the day (Northgate, Zeos, Gateway, Dell, HP, etc.) wanted to muscle in on the IBM PC's market share, so they got together with Intel, MS and others and agreed on AT then ATX. There was no such thing as a "laptop" then - they had 40lb "luggables" like the Osborne and Compaq but that's about it. By the time truly mobile laptops came about, the "VCR vs Betamax" wars (only with laptops) already had entrenched sides with their own proprietary hardware none of the sides were willing to give up.

We never truly saw the death of luggables. Higher end gaming laptops are still like that with that quintessential poopy battery life. Their battery life mostly sucks due to 100Wh battery limit in planes.

If only the makers agreed on a small handful of laptop shapes with standard mounting holes, standard voltages, and 2 or 3 only, battery sizes. It would be amazing for self-builders to have a plethora of laptop components we could assemble ourselves. But no way today that will ever happen.

If you have dough, Clevo and some others are still making fully custom laptops, but they are usually high end gaming laptops.

 

[AsRock]

So what's the deal with 1800 - 2000 watt PSU's? Intel or Nvidia not trying to save the planet and fry us all instead?

Like any other company, when it fits their needs.

That's why 220-240 V is superior. Also, most wall outlets are fused for 10 or 16 A in Europe.

UK is more like 1A 3A 5A and mainly 13A, unless some thing changed there over the last 20 years ha.

 

[80251]

Indeed, it's a recent issue with the latest cards. That's why they are making a new standard.

Didn't the R9 295x2 draw more power than ANY single GPU consumer videocard out now?

According to TPU (thx W1zzard) the R9 295x2 peaks out at between 500W and 646W:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-r9-295-x2/22.html

There were people who ran 4-way crossfire back then so why are the late model video cards considered too much for conventional PSU's that could power one or two r9 295x2's?

 

[Bill_Bright]

Higher end gaming laptops are still like that with that quintessential poopy battery life. Their battery life mostly sucks due to 100Wh battery limit in planes.

Well, not as bad as the luggables back then, but I agree! I fail to see their point when a decent PC case can easily support the horsepower the necessary cooling those cases cannot.

IMO, there is no such thing as a good "gaming" laptop or "desktop replacement" laptop - no matter what their marketing weeniew or sales propaganda claims.

Clevo and some others are still making fully custom laptops

No way! "Fully" custom? Total hogwash! You can customize them only within the extreme limited options they allow at the time of purchase - if you buy from them. After the sale, can you eaily swap cases? Monitors? Motherboards? Yadda yadda? Nope. Nope, Nope and nope.

 

[The red spirit]

Well, not as bad as the luggables back then, but I agree! I fail to see their point when a decent PC case can easily support the horsepower the necessary cooling those cases cannot.

IMO, there is no such thing as a good "gaming" laptop or "desktop replacement" laptop - no matter what their marketing weeniew or sales propaganda claims.

Dunno about that. Those 17 inch units fit that category as long as your desktop doesn't have GPU. They aren't luggables, but still have extra screen estate.

No way! "Fully" custom? Total hogwash! You can customize them only within the extreme limited options they allow at the time of purchase - if you buy from them. After the sale, can you eaily swap cases? Monitors? Motherboards? Yadda yadda? Nope. Nope, Nope and nope.

You most likely can swap components afterwards too. They likely use MXM cards and socketed CPUs. memory and storage are 100% replacable. Since laptop monitors have standard sizes and standard connectors, you most likely can swap it too. That's certainly not bad for laptop.

 

[eidairaman1]

Like any other company, when it fits their needs.



UK is more like 1A 3A 5A and mainly 13A, unless some thing changed there over the last 20 years ha.

15-20A here

110-120V

203-250V is 30-125/250A

203-250V is 30-125/250A

Didn't the R9 295x2 draw more power than ANY single GPU consumer videocard out now?

According to TPU (thx W1zzard) the R9 295x2 peaks out at between 500W and 646W:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-r9-295-x2/22.html

There were people who ran 4-way crossfire back then so why are the late model video cards considered too much for conventional PSU's that could power one or two r9 295x2's?

Current draw

 

[AsRock]

15-20A here

110-120V

203-250V is 30-125/250A

203-250V is 30-125/250A


Current draw

I was on about the fuses in the plugs typically found.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

No big changes to the spec really, except the "PCIe 5.0" power connector - if your GPU uses that, you will need a new PSU. A good reason to stay with an older but higher-end if money is tight. Otherwise the changes (according to the article linked) are unremarkable. Adapters for this will not be possible as 4 pins are for PSU-GPU communication.

 

[looniam]

Didn't the R9 295x2 draw more power than ANY single GPU consumer videocard out now?

According to TPU (thx W1zzard) the R9 295x2 peaks out at between 500W and 646W:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-r9-295-x2/22.html

There were people who ran 4-way crossfire back then so why are the late model video cards considered too much for conventional PSU's that could power one or two r9 295x2's?

i really wouldn't be surprised if DX10 games didn't have feature sets that required higher power consumption like todays' DX12 and esp MS's DXR APIs.


just saying, it would be nice to see a deep dive article on that stuff . . maybe(?)