Korean mom meeting and say goodbye to her deceased daughter one last time in VR

[Xzibit]

Total Recall.

Someone get Douglas Quaid on the phone and find out if he's living the real thing or just stuck in a memory.

You know how hes going to react like Ryan Gosling "K" from Bladerunner 2049. When he visits the memory maker.

 

[robot zombie]

All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations. It's one of those things that you would think was always going to be creepy and traumatic, but many people do them and willingly go up to see their loved one one last time, even though you don't have to. And none of them seem to find THAT traumatic. It brings them peace to see them more as they always remembered (as opposed to the months to years before, in pain and not the same person anymore.) It also gives people who weren't there when they passed and perhaps hadn't seen them in some time that much needed chance to see them again. How many times have you heard "I never got to see him before he went." You know? That stuff, can really stick with a person and eat away. They may long for that, for a very long time, which isn't always good. You see people break down and just lose it in desperation when they have nothing to reach out to or hold onto. Go down a road they never fully come back from and become a husk themselves.

It gives them that chance to face the reality that they are never going to see that person again in this life, and say goodbye on their terms. It helps them gather the will to let go.

I mean, for all of this talk of trauma... I don't doubt that it could be traumatic to see your loved one re-animated in VR-world for a little while... to see them and have it *almost* seem like they're right there again, only be left to deal with the reality of losing them all over again. I get that. But what if you never actually were able to let go? It's like, you lost them, but they never left you. You wish you could see them again and say goodbye for real. Just one more time. That's all it is. It's not about staying in the past and never moving on. It's a way to get out of the past. A little something to shake you fully back into the present.

I think we all want that sometimes, and people all have their little reminders they reach to in order to placate that feeling. We reminisce amongst one another, sharing in our most cherished memories. We view objects with strong memories tied to them (and store them with reverence - some even referring to it as though the person's soul is bound to it, a piece of jewelry, an urn, their favorite chair.) We go to visit their graves, or to other places that remind us of peak times when they were in our lives. It's a way of attaining and then keeping closure. There is some pain involved every single time... it's unavoidable. It lives with you forever, whether or not you choose to live with it... but sometimes those sorts of things help keep a person grounded. You never forget the pain, but you also make sure that you never forget who that person was, or what they meant to you in your life. You do whatever works to keep the happy reminders. There's no set time when anyone is expected to stop doing these things, and many times it's considered a mark of maturity and well-being to be able to look back and glean something positive from it. It's a way of respecting the dead and honoring their memory within you. You carry them along, when they no longer can. I don't know that there's any way to put rules on how a person goes about doing that.

In one sentence, we are reliving those memories. It makes me wonder, is this really all that different? Or is this perhaps just another way to do something that actually is pretty natural for humans to do?

The violent video game/PTSD study made me realize something. Those people playing those games are being affected negatively because they are seeing and hearing things that mimic the trauma. The actual traumatic events. For it to be the same in this case, the VR would be simulating the long drawn out battle with the illness that took her, ending with her dying in pain. But that isn't what happened. There was a brief conversation, I assume words of love/reassurance, the goodbye, and then her daughter drifts peacefully off to sleep, looking happy, well, and content.

Not unlike the presentations in an open casket. That's pretty much what they go for by having them look as close to their best as they ever did while alive. People will often remark on how peaceful they looked or that they looked like they were having a good sleep. This is all no more 'real' than the VR experience, and yet in some ways more visceral. But it's not even something people think about most of the time. Many will always find it strange and creepy and refuse to do it, but it's still generally an accepted practice. It's a way of adding one last memory at the end, in order to keep your heart tethered to parts worth remembering, instead of the parts you'd rather forget. In a person's mind, it makes it about the parts that mattered, instead of the loss. That can be a very powerful thing. The loss can literally kill you if you are not able to take your focus off of it.


It was certainly and unusual and emotionally moving display. You can see the pain and sadness all around. But isn't that how it always is when you lose someone? Should we stop having funerals because people are prone to outbursts of overwhelming sadness at them? To me, that's kinda part of the process. And if this is the reaction now, it may just be needed. It's not necessarily a bad thing that this stuff came out. For all any of us know, it needed to... and now has had its chance.

I have my own questions and doubts about the ethics and the efficacy of something like that - don't get me wrong, I am not totally sold. I just can't help but draw these parallels. It truly doesn't strike me as being that far off from things we already do. It's just another means to do the same things people always do when someone close dies, and often continue to do from time to time, without it being looked at as being unhealthy or unnatural. So I don't see it as good or bad. Nobody really knows what goes through someone else's mind as they make their way through these things.

Maybe this is just me, having been to a few open caskets and gone up for visitation, observing the things happening within myself and people around me. There is sadness, tears, every emotion imaginable, but for most people there is peace after that. For me there has been a lasting peace, that I honestly don't know how I would've gotten otherwise. You can even feel it in the room, emanating off of people as they return to their seats. Most are quite calm the entire time, even when tears are shed. They have thier moment, and when they are finished, they let out that long sigh of relief as if to say "it's really over." It does something to you, to be able to have a real tangible chance to say goodbye, even knowing they are already gone and that what you are looking at is no longer them, but a husk. Some can't bear it all, while others really need to have that. People are strange *shrugs*

Nobody actually believes that's the real person, you know? That's not what it's for. Again, I can't pretend to know the implications for this practice, and as a one-off it doesn't really mean much. But it does set off some interesting thoughts. It's a challenging subject. And just like with open-casket visitations, nobody will ever agree. f you're going in for these things regularly, I might worry. But if it's a one time deal done to help get a person over the hurdle... well, it's not that strange to me. Not any stranger than any of the other things people do to cope... like keep the person's ashes up on their mantle, watch old home movies, or whatever.

 

[moproblems99]

All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations. It's one of those things that you would think was always going to be creepy and traumatic, but many people do them and willingly go up to see their loved one one last time, even though you don't have to.

Except no one is animating the corpse and make it speak all kinds of things that are entirely made up (potentially by people who have NO idea about the life and times of said corpse.

 

[lexluthermiester]

All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations.

Yeah, I refuse to do that. My personal belief is that the body is a left-over shell, to be treated with respect for certain, but not to be given more consideration than it deserves, to be disposed of in a graceful, dignified manner. Only once did I ever view the body of a loved one in the casket because she wished it for a family reason. Otherwise I would not have been there. To me, viewing the body is creepy as hell because that's all it is, a body, empty and lifeless. This VR thing by comparison is harmless.

 

[robot zombie]

Except no one is animating the corpse and make it speak all kinds of things that are entirely made up (potentially by people who have NO idea about the life and times of said corpse.

True, but the end goal is the same. They're going for the same impact. The body is typically dressed in clothing that suited the person in life, and they are told things about the person that might help them make it more convincing. They do everything they can to make it appear as close to how the person looked when alive as possible, so that when the family sees them, they are reminded of more positive things about the person. But otherwise, those are people who never knew the person and are just going by whatever they're told about the person... referencing stories and photographs.

And hey, at least with the VR, they don't actually have to manipulate the actual corpse. They leave the real body to rest. It's just a likeness. I agree, it would be very disturbing to have my loved one's actual dead body animated and talking to me. That's actually kind of horrifying to think about.

I can totally get why open casket is off-putting. A lot of people feel that a body should be left to rest. Others just truly cannot bear to see without it salting the wound. But then some people request it before they go, and that is in fact their idea of a dignified passing. They want people to see them dressed up nice, looking how they've always looked. I've considered it, for those who might want that chance. Once I'm dead, I'm dead. Honestly, for a while I wanted to be shot into space, but there are too many legal complications

Of course, none of this makes it any less strange or upsetting. Just no more than anything was before we had VR.

 

[Xzibit]

1 real funeral then 1 VR funeral 4 yrs later.

What would be the acceptable time line for that.

Lets not forget

Nayeon’s little sister, a spitting image of her older sibling, was used as the basis of the character model.

Make sure you have someone that looks like you before you go.

 

[robot zombie]

1 real funeral then 1 VR funeral 4 yrs later.

What would be the acceptable time line for that.

Honestly, I don't know.

It's not exactly a full ceremony. Just a goodbye, which... can you really put a timeline on that aspect? Not everyone is able to at the time of the funeral, for some that is never enough for them to move on, and everyone does it in their own way.

I will say this... to not be able to do it for all of that time suggests some serious issues. That's not normal in itself. Someone who has internalized the loss in a more normal healthy way would not need or even consider something like this. But it also isn't unheard of for people to really struggle for a long time, to the point where it severely undermines them. And in those cases, there are no easy answers. I don't know if this is one answer. But I am open to the idea that those answers may be outside the realm of what would usually be considered normal or acceptable. I can neither encourage, nor dismiss the possibilities. There just isn't enough to go by.

I'm just trying to understand with what I have available to me, rather than just assuming it's only this loopy sci-fi thing and leaving it at that. I feel like that's the easy way to look at it, when this is a completely novel thing, that like or not, is probably gonna happen again, anyway. So I figure it's worth sort of reading into and taking the opportunity to learn something new about people, since none of us here have a say anyway.

I'm not set on my conclusions. For all I know, there is something seriously wrong with the woman. People have made claims to that effect that have merit. But the other side is worth exploring, too. At least try to figure out why people do it and what they might get out of it, you know?

 

[phanbuey]

What about virtual assistants/ AI in the voice and appearance of your loved ones?

Some people commemorate their loved ones with portraits, artworks, photos... Why not an interactive replica?

I know people that have statues/busts of their loved ones, others that get tattoos i don't think any of those things are weird so maybe the reaction is just normal tech shock.

 

[Xzibit]

I know people that have statues/busts of their loved ones, others that get tattoos i don't think any of those things are weird so maybe the reaction is just normal tech shock.

Might be Eastern thing. They have VR funeral homes and phone apps for deceased loved one. Less restrictions and oversight.

One of The 3D phone apps you have to be alive for tho.

 

[phanbuey]

now that you mention it.... that's true; eastern cultures have a pretty different relationship with death and loss.

National Geographic

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.

video.nationalgeographic.com

 

[lexluthermiester]

now that you mention it.... that's true; eastern cultures have a pretty different relationship with death and loss.

National Geographic

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.

video.nationalgeographic.com

Wow.. Couldn't do that, just couldn't.

 

[Vayra86]

Wow. Folks, the OP shared something very touching and heart felt, a way for technology to help a grieving mother close a painful chapter in life, and you're mocking that? Seriously?

Have some self-respect and dignity... Not cool peeps, not cool at all.

Yeah, sure, this is psychologically and emotionally a very good thing to have.

'Make mourning easier' through technology. Surely you can see the problems here... Self respect and dignity? This is marketing, dude. Wake up.

Its fine to explore possibilities, but what always seems strangely absent is real research on long term effects on our psyche. Look at social media, another such technological experiment, and how people cope with that. The amount of mental issues is going up, not down, as are suicide rates, (online) bullying etc. Narcissism is bigger and more visible than it ever was - making it also more normal.

The gist of it: Lower a barrier and make it easier, and you will create more misery and dependancy. There are good reasons some things take effort. Mourning is one of them. This VR solution is the same shit as some weirdo telling us we can speak with our deceased relatives. It sells, fantastically, just like all the other miracle cures we know of. Do they really help? Studies show.... oh wait those studies aren't being done.

now that you mention it.... that's true; eastern cultures have a pretty different relationship with death and loss.

National Geographic

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.

video.nationalgeographic.com

None involve technology, but rather contemplation and experience, pure and real, with a clear beginning and end. A writing on the wall. The contrast couldn't be greater here: waiting for some occurrence that is irreversible, versus having a gadget to replay infinitely and at any given moment with zero effort.

All of this reminds me of open-casket visitations. It's one of those things that you would think was always going to be creepy and traumatic, but many people do them and willingly go up to see their loved one one last time, even though you don't have to. And none of them seem to find THAT traumatic. It brings them peace to see them more as they always remembered (as opposed to the months to years before, in pain and not the same person anymore.) It also gives people who weren't there when they passed and perhaps hadn't seen them in some time that much needed chance to see them again. How many times have you heard "I never got to see him before he went." You know? That stuff, can really stick with a person and eat away. They may long for that, for a very long time, which isn't always good. You see people break down and just lose it in desperation when they have nothing to reach out to or hold onto. Go down a road they never fully come back from and become a husk themselves.

It gives them that chance to face the reality that they are never going to see that person again in this life, and say goodbye on their terms. It helps them gather the will to let go.

I mean, for all of this talk of trauma... I don't doubt that it could be traumatic to see your loved one re-animated in VR-world for a little while... to see them and have it *almost* seem like they're right there again, only be left to deal with the reality of losing them all over again. I get that. But what if you never actually were able to let go? It's like, you lost them, but they never left you. You wish you could see them again and say goodbye for real. Just one more time. That's all it is. It's not about staying in the past and never moving on. It's a way to get out of the past. A little something to shake you fully back into the present.

I think we all want that sometimes, and people all have their little reminders they reach to in order to placate that feeling. We reminisce amongst one another, sharing in our most cherished memories. We view objects with strong memories tied to them (and store them with reverence - some even referring to it as though the person's soul is bound to it, a piece of jewelry, an urn, their favorite chair.) We go to visit their graves, or to other places that remind us of peak times when they were in our lives. It's a way of attaining and then keeping closure. There is some pain involved every single time... it's unavoidable. It lives with you forever, whether or not you choose to live with it... but sometimes those sorts of things help keep a person grounded. You never forget the pain, but you also make sure that you never forget who that person was, or what they meant to you in your life. You do whatever works to keep the happy reminders. There's no set time when anyone is expected to stop doing these things, and many times it's considered a mark of maturity and well-being to be able to look back and glean something positive from it. It's a way of respecting the dead and honoring their memory within you. You carry them along, when they no longer can. I don't know that there's any way to put rules on how a person goes about doing that.

In one sentence, we are reliving those memories. It makes me wonder, is this really all that different? Or is this perhaps just another way to do something that actually is pretty natural for humans to do?

The violent video game/PTSD study made me realize something. Those people playing those games are being affected negatively because they are seeing and hearing things that mimic the trauma. The actual traumatic events. For it to be the same in this case, the VR would be simulating the long drawn out battle with the illness that took her, ending with her dying in pain. But that isn't what happened. There was a brief conversation, I assume words of love/reassurance, the goodbye, and then her daughter drifts peacefully off to sleep, looking happy, well, and content.

Not unlike the presentations in an open casket. That's pretty much what they go for by having them look as close to their best as they ever did while alive. People will often remark on how peaceful they looked or that they looked like they were having a good sleep. This is all no more 'real' than the VR experience, and yet in some ways more visceral. But it's not even something people think about most of the time. Many will always find it strange and creepy and refuse to do it, but it's still generally an accepted practice. It's a way of adding one last memory at the end, in order to keep your heart tethered to parts worth remembering, instead of the parts you'd rather forget. In a person's mind, it makes it about the parts that mattered, instead of the loss. That can be a very powerful thing. The loss can literally kill you if you are not able to take your focus off of it.


It was certainly and unusual and emotionally moving display. You can see the pain and sadness all around. But isn't that how it always is when you lose someone? Should we stop having funerals because people are prone to outbursts of overwhelming sadness at them? To me, that's kinda part of the process. And if this is the reaction now, it may just be needed. It's not necessarily a bad thing that this stuff came out. For all any of us know, it needed to... and now has had its chance.

I have my own questions and doubts about the ethics and the efficacy of something like that - don't get me wrong, I am not totally sold. I just can't help but draw these parallels. It truly doesn't strike me as being that far off from things we already do. It's just another means to do the same things people always do when someone close dies, and often continue to do from time to time, without it being looked at as being unhealthy or unnatural. So I don't see it as good or bad. Nobody really knows what goes through someone else's mind as they make their way through these things.

Maybe this is just me, having been to a few open caskets and gone up for visitation, observing the things happening within myself and people around me. There is sadness, tears, every emotion imaginable, but for most people there is peace after that. For me there has been a lasting peace, that I honestly don't know how I would've gotten otherwise. You can even feel it in the room, emanating off of people as they return to their seats. Most are quite calm the entire time, even when tears are shed. They have thier moment, and when they are finished, they let out that long sigh of relief as if to say "it's really over." It does something to you, to be able to have a real tangible chance to say goodbye, even knowing they are already gone and that what you are looking at is no longer them, but a husk. Some can't bear it all, while others really need to have that. People are strange *shrugs*

Nobody actually believes that's the real person, you know? That's not what it's for. Again, I can't pretend to know the implications for this practice, and as a one-off it doesn't really mean much. But it does set off some interesting thoughts. It's a challenging subject. And just like with open-casket visitations, nobody will ever agree. f you're going in for these things regularly, I might worry. But if it's a one time deal done to help get a person over the hurdle... well, it's not that strange to me. Not any stranger than any of the other things people do to cope... like keep the person's ashes up on their mantle, watch old home movies, or whatever.

Great points, I think the main differentiator here is the fact that this is a digital experience. Repeatable, recordable, but fake.

This is different than watching an old home video. The fact that new interaction comes out of the VR solution is a problem. It brings a false reality into the mind of someone who is already in a weakened state. How many can really separate that from reality, and is it really a good thing to satisfy the need for that interaction when it is in fact not truly possible? Is this really productive for the mourning process? I strongly doubt that.

Mourning is about closure, this VR experience opens up ways to do the polar opposite.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Mourning is about closure, this VR experience opens up ways to do the polar opposite.

So do old pictures and video. Your point?

 

[Xzibit]

Old photos and video don't go through the ageing process. Then question where you been and if your thinking of them.

"Where have you been, Mom? Did you think about me?"

Oh, great now this VR thing is try'n to guilt trip me.

 

[hat]

So do old pictures and video. Your point?

As I'm sure you can guess... pictures, or even video, are a far cry from an interactive computer simulated representation of a person.

FWIW, I've lost plenty of people in my lifetime. People who I would love to see again... but, not like this.

 

[Vayra86]

So do old pictures and video. Your point?

Does your home video or photo book interact with you? Or does it leave you to ponder and remember, and just that. In a way, it further cements the rationale that somebody is gone and these are memories of the past. The VR experience does the exact opposite, it creates the illusion new experiences are possible. Especially if you want to believe that.

Old photos and video don't go through the ageing process. Then question where you been and if your thinking of them.



Oh, great now this VR thing is try'n to guilt trip me.

Yup many bizarre movie scenes do pass by now. This is 90's Sci-Fi all over again. And note: there are a bunch of people applauding this tech, today. Back then every half wit realized this was a problem... Scary shit. It shows how we lose touch with reality and why it matters. People run away from it into technology.

 

[robot zombie]

I can see it too, I'm a bit conflicted on the ultimate meaning of it, because we're kind of caught in the middle. The only thing I'm fairly certain of right now is that our values no longer match the reality we're facing. What used to work for society, doesn't anymore, because we are now surrounded by all of this new shit that has effects on us we don't always see. No doubt it is changing us. That is going to happen. And it's going to keep happening. What used to sort of shield us and allow us to better integrate with reality is no longer effective. A new reality is forming., I mean, really, that is not something we can avoid at this point. If anything, it has already happened. All of these new things are hitting our perception all of the time and molding it in different ways.

I think the only reason it's bad right now... the only reason there are things to fear in it, is the simple fact that there is no precedent for how we should deal with it. And I think the truth is that nobody knows. Nobody has that picture of the full reality, yet. It's easy to look around and see it as people losing touch with reality, and with their humanity, but those really are such nebulous things. So much of how we perceive things actually seem to be there to keep us from being directly exposed to reality. We make a lot of assumptions about what is real and what is not. It comes down to how we define ourselves. People generally believe whatever they need to believe in order to feel a connection with things entering their perception and be able to somewhat navigate them in a way that they can find meaning in.

The best example I can think of is religion. I'm not religious myself, but I'm not out to take that away from anyone. Some people think it is harmful - that it takes people out of touch with reality. But is has served a purpose for us... which is consolidating the bare reality with the impact things existing within it have on us in a more productive and meaningful way. People who practice a religion believe deeply in many things that may or may not be true... things not immediately observable. It defines much of who they are and what life actually is for them. And it's not little things, either. There are big things, such as an afterlife and an all-encompassing spiritual force that comprises of everything we see, a set of morals and consequences far removed from the immediacy of what is around us. There's no absolute, observable, transferable reason to believe this. It's based on faith. And in fact, many people who don't share in that reality with you will say that you are crazy.

The important thing here is that both people are usually equally functional and adaptable. It's not always about who's closer to the truth when it comes to things we can't know or comprehend.

And the funny thing is, even if you don't participate in it, you can't ever fully get away from that tendency... humans always have this need to make sense of things, even when we can't. If you think that you are beyond certain beliefs and practices... well, that's just part of the reality you have cooked up for yourself. Sometimes I think the only difference between this part of us that we all share and psychosis is that you can't control psychosis.

But that's an important distinction to make. People often talk about these things like everyone is just at the whims of it... sort of in the grips, but people ARE choosing this. We have always chosen how we see these things. What's the Rush song say? Bit of a bastardization here, but "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." As in, you can't avoid choosing a reality for yourself. We are not unwitting victims of this stuff. We're still just hashing it out. Just because our shared reality is changing doesn't necessarily make it any more wrong or right. That's never really been the point of it.

So to me, people finding their meaning in different things is just kind of people being people. We just have different tools... tools we haven't fully learned how to use. We aren't like other living creatures. We 'assign' our realities to ourselves and each other. We don't just live-out an inborn purpose. If we don't like something, there are two options. Change the world, or change ourselves and how we see things. We choose them and change them as we see fit. Which makes me wonder... are we any more or less 'in touch' with reality than we've ever been? Or have we just been inventing all of these tools to build our own from the very beginning? One that maybe suits us better than the one we were all born into? Whether we succeed is another question, but that's one we won't be able to answer until we actually try and see the outcomes for what they are. Are people happier? Do we hurt each other less?

But I guess that all boils it back down to the same point I've made several times before. It comes down to what you value and personally want to see in life. People only see what they want to see. And that is EVERYONE in this conversation. Everyone in the whole damned world.

If you want to see it as harmful, you will see the harm. If you want to see it as helpful, you will see the benefits. This idea that technology is causing people to lose touch with reality is tough to argue for or against. Who's reality are we talking? Yours? Mine? Or everyone's? Those all change all of the time.

And of course, you can always say that other people are choosing wrong. But if everyone makes that choice but you, it just means you're going to be left behind, in a bubble of your own.


Narcissism is a funny thing. A lot of people look at it like a disease you can catch, but in observing it, that doesn't actually seem to be the case. The prevailing pattern is that your overall levels of it are determined by the time you are approaching adulthood. From there you are completely static, when it comes to how narcissistic you are. So you see all of these people on social media gathering all of this supply and assume "this technology is making people more narcissistic." But honestly, I think if you took that away from them, they would find the same supply elsewhere. And if they can't, watch out! They will get real mean and cruel. They will do more things that actually hurt people, instead of faffing about within their internet-born self-image. Personally, I think it might actually be better to let them have their internet playground, where the harm they can do is lessened and maybe, with their supply better met, will lead them to be less antsy to exact it from people in their families, or their friends and coworkers. The internet may just make doing that less appealing to them, simply due to the power it holds for molding an image. It's easier. The effect is greater. And it doesn't require you to take as much away from other people. And remember, most things that a narcissist says and does are not necessarily to get whatever is at the end... it's all done in service of that image. They don't care about the money, the clothes, the prestige of a top level job or a fancy degree, the hot spouse who loves them... it's not about having those things, but rather what a person having those things looks like to them and other people. That is what drives them.

The internet just makes it easier to see that aspect in people. It's like how people always say "Humanity hasn't gotten dumber - it's just more obvious now." Someone who is less narcissistic will never engage in those behaviors, regardless of what is around them. The only solution is to sequester the narcs off on an island somewhere. Really! Those people are not going to change - until the day they die, they will be narcissists.

But good luck with that. The same things that make a narcissist are in us all. We learn those habits as defense mechanisms in childhood, and in fact people need them to some degree in order to have a cohesive identity. An adult narcissist's behavior is not unlike that of a normal child. Many of the manipulation tactics are even the same. Parenting is often the determining factor in whether it goes too far. Behind nearly every adult narcissist are parents who were prone to both spoiling and neglect, basically leading the child to lean on these defense mechanisms too heavily... showing them that's what works best. Lying works. Presenting yourself as good in a certain way puts you ahead - being what people want you to be and burying what you want to be. Vying for attention in a negative way gets you stuff. Hide your feelings... bad things happen when you don't. When you don't have enough love around you, building a self-image and doing what you have to do to maintain it is just daily living. They never learn to adapt it in a more selfless, empathetic way, because they never learn how to practice self-love in the way a normal person does. And there's a window for doing that successfully. Once a child in that frame of mind reaches a certain age, they never come out of it... because in the immediate-term, it actually works. They fully integrate that way of operating into who they are. Many very successful people are narcissists. And due to their whole identity being based around this fabricated, self-serving self-image, you will never convince them that it is wrong. Nobody but them will ever be their number one. It's the only way they know how to be.

Cruelly enough, in developing into a narcissist, you lose the self-insight needed to even see it in yourself. If pressed, a narcissist will often rank themselves low on that scale, while rating other people much higher than them. And they really believe that! They actually can't help it! Kind of sad, in that sense.

Now, narcissistic parents hand their kids tablets or phones and leave them to it. But again, in the past we still had those same people raising those parents, so whether we have that tech or not, the outcome is still the same. It was just a different form of neglect. It's a cycle that isn't at all new.

Just because these things are used by narcissists to get what they want doesn't mean the things themselves make a person narcissistic. It's just become more visible than before, due to the public nature of the internet. My concern there isn't with the internet or the new tech, but in accepting overt narcissism, or more particularly, the parenting practices that lead to them. Once they're out there, you can't stop them from doing what they do and getting ahead without greatly restricting everyone else. We have to be able to look at it differently and stop fixating on the things that adult narcissists take advantage of. I wish more people would recognize that it is a developmental problem. It'd be like trying to get away from using knives because murderers are using them to kill people. And besides, self-serving behavior isn't even that bad to begin with - it is necessary. It only becomes bad when it gets to the extent of hurting other people.

To me, it's not the tech that's bad. It's just that going forward we REALLY need to emphasize self-love in our children and not allow them to become narcissists in the first place. A lot of these problems people attribute to the tech will probably go away if we do that. It's been a long time coming. If all of this tech went away tomorrow, we still would not have begun to repair the damage done by the proliferation of narcissistic people in the world. We actually have to stop molding them that way as kids and let the existing ones sort of live it out.

 

[Vayra86]

I never thought I'd say this on this forum, but damn, man. That is deep. You have a great mind, sir.

Maybe the take away is 'balance in all things'. I, too can see the benefits of this VR thing. I'm just a tad more pessimistic about people's general self control But maybe that is our reality, to try and fail until we die, and enjoy the ride.

 

[Xzibit]

I never thought I'd say this on this forum, but damn, man. That is deep. You have a great mind, sir.

Maybe the take away is 'balance in all things'. I, too can see the benefits of this VR thing. I'm just a tad more pessimistic about people's general self control But maybe that is our reality, to try and fail until we die, and enjoy the ride.

The mother was to the point of obsession about loosing her girls memory. Pictures, videos, momentos were not enough.

Which many people argue that Pictures and Videos are the same to VR. The Mother had these and she was still afraid of loosing her daughters memory. She also has a bone locket of her daughter and frequents her resting place.

 

[robot zombie]

I never thought I'd say this on this forum, but damn, man. That is deep. You have a great mind, sir.

Maybe the take away is 'balance in all things'. I, too can see the benefits of this VR thing. I'm just a tad more pessimistic about people's general self control But maybe that is our reality, to try and fail until we die, and enjoy the ride.

Thank you, now don't mess it up for me putting more thoughts in my head

I get where you coming from too. I sort of teeter to both extremes. Sometimes I think it's not bad at all, other times I go to an extremely cynical place... one a lot harsher than anything expressed in this thread. I could easily satisfy either and probably feel good about it today... and then shitty about it tomorrow. So in the interest of self-preservation and good mental health I try to marry those two sides of myself and make some effort to never commit to just one side. Putting it out there kind of solidifies a peaceful coexistence of those two fragments for me. Sometimes I can't help it and I still go off just like everybody does. Interestingly, the negatives are more tempting. But I try to let it pass and then come back to it. I think what happens a lot of the time is a person takes a stance that resonates with some part of them and it becomes hard to separate one from the other, so you cling to it even though it brings more and more friction, eventually making you miserable. It becomes hard to see through the miasma.

It's a tough balance, being critical and pessimistic when needed, without falling off of the side of the cliff. I'm actually very prone to this and it's something I've had to work through. Still haven't got it right but dammit I try!

I do think caution is good. I get this unshakable feeling that we're entering a new era and things are about to be very, very different for everyone. If people can't question it, we're really screwed. There's a lot of resistance to the questioning, which isn't good. There are going to be a lot of times when we need to look back on things. One thing I've noticed, from the time I became aware that I was a person till now, is that everything is geared towards moving faster and faster. Knowledge. Utility. Efficiency. All seemingly logical and perhaps even noble things. But sometimes the way people push for it and defend it doesn't resemble the outcomes those things are supposed to lead to... not at all. Things can get very ugly. For that, we need people who can look around and say "Hey, NO. This is fucked up!"

 

[Vayra86]

It's a tough balance, being critical and pessimistic when needed, without falling off of the side of the cliff. I'm actually very prone to this and it's something I've had to work through. Still haven't got it right but dammit I try!

Same here... There is just no true north here... Totally feel you on this.

 

[robot zombie]

The mother was to the point of obsession about loosing her girls memory. Pictures, videos, momentos were not enough.

Which many people argue that Pictures and Videos are the same to VR. The Mother had these and she was still afraid of loosing her daughters memory. She also has a bone locket of her daughter and frequents her resting place.

Well... in a way the argument still stands. It could be just an extension of the locket and the visits.

But you're right, she does seem obsessed to a very unhealthy degree. There's no real denying that, in this case. I think the opposition to the idea that this is inherently bad lies with the idea that it doesn't always have to be. Just because one person, or even many people abuse something, doesn't mean that it can't also be used for good, in the right hands. All things capable of doing the most good also carry the ability to bring about the most evil. The context is important. In this one, it could be wrong. But for others, that's not true by default. It's not so much that people just accept this particular case as being good (though no doubt there are people who see zero problems with it.) It's just that when you look beyond this case and consider the possibilities, some good can be seen in it.

Somewhere in the heart and mind of somebody who would consider doing this, is a need for closure that is not being met. For one reason or another they can't figure out how to fill the void. And everything they try to use doesn't last. They're too hung-up on these memories to move-on. I can see how it might be similar to medication as something that satisfies these dark, obsessive feelings for a while. In reality it is totally superficial in that nothing actually changes. Which is why you can't stop there. In the wake of that, you have to go on to things that actually constitute moving on. Novel, positive experiences, completely unrelated to her daughter or the loss. Of course, since she's not actually cured, the pull of the obsession will return eventually. And the hope in this scenario would be that by then, she would have some things in place that allow her to challenge those emotions - other things that also hold strong meaning. Basically, things that she built-up in the time when the obsession was temporarily suspended down on a lower level, things that she was unable to muster while being perpetually consumed by it. Just something to render a more positive frame of mind that carries to other aspects of the person's life. If you're really rocked by grief, everything seems terrible and it feels like there is no escape. It can cut you off from many options indefinitely.

After enough time of fighting it with a newfound sense of meaning, that may person may eventually be able to go back, face the actual reality of how things are, and make genuine peace with it. Kind of a fake it till you make it deal. It's definitely a place a person can get seriously stuck in. There needs to be a balance, but sometimes it is a place you inevitably wind up in... a shield that keeps you from completely falling apart. If the obsession is the only thing holding someone together, it has to be replaced with something before they can be whole again. You can try to yank it out and quickly toss something better in and that can work for certain temperaments and dispositions. But with others, you have to replace it piece by piece.


The application matters a whole lot. I think we can all agree on this: a private organization doing this and media sensationalizing it carries a lot of pitfalls and you have to question the motives. That's not going to be the way. It needs to be in the hands of people who care about what is actually best for the person. But that is surface-level. It doesn't have to define all that this sort of thing can ever be. What if this was done in a closed, medical, therapeutic setting? I'm talking, this person is seeing a professional psychologist who specializes in grieving. Someone who can do a proper assessment of the person's headspace and present the risks to them in a way that they can understand, before they make a choice. And once they make that choice, it's not like they get free, direct access any time they want. Only the therapist that's been working with them can make the call. And you can't do it more than once, or it might compromise the end goal of moving on. It's a controlled and monitored situation.

Even then, it would probably be considered extreme... something done after other, less risky options have been tried. At that point, it makes more sense. Edge case, fringe methods.

Of course, it doesn't end with the session, even if it seems to have a positive impact initially. They would have to continue therapy and talk it out to help them continue moving towards consolidation instead of obsession. The therapist has to help guide them towards attitudes and behaviors that make the obsession less useful and appealing. You can't just do this and say "I'm okay now." It's something I think can only really see practical use as something to take the pain away for just long enough to build-up new strengths. A little opportunity to operate outside of this confining obsession. It's a false peace with an expiration date on it. Its usage has to be very focused. A full treatment plan has to come first. And the person in charge of executing it has to be able gauge whether the individual is going to go home and think about it all night, or if it might allow them to leave it be for a while, due to the power it has over how emotions pass through. For some, it could be enough for them to convince themselves, for just a little while, of the reality that the person is gone and that it is okay. Long enough to do something more worthwhile than sitting around being miserable and maybe find something in thier life that can replace what was lost in a healthier, more permanent way.

The idea of people just walking into some place and doing this probably isn't a good one. Marketing would make a monster out of it. Though at that point it's still up to the people who choose to do that to live with the consequences. And I'd argue it would be more a symptom of their problems than a cause. As in, it is not feeding an unhealthy obsession - they are. And where there's a will, there is a way. If it ever became a problem, you can bet there would be regulation to follow.

 

[Xzibit]

When you take SK suicide rank is in 4th spot. Metal Health needs attention.