Windows 11 24H2 yes or no?

[Onasi]

The jury is still out on that. I tried re-enabling it and that failed when I denied access to the internet. This directly indicates that a full removal took place and likely a deletion.

I mean… yeah? That’s how optional features have been behaving for a while now. They pull stuff from the Store and MS servers. Includ just ids and some binaries potentially.

To me, removed indicates that the function is no longer workable and can not be re-enabled without patching from an external source. The term "Deleted" when it's completely erased from the system.

Most people don’t run their PCs without the net access. The fact that the feature can just be re-enabled by MS without the user knowing through the Windows Experience Platform like they do for many small tweaks straight up, to me, makes it impossible to classify something as “Deleted”. “Removed” to me carries same connotation. To do that I would need to know exactly which runtimes are responsible for ReCall and have an ability to fully remove them and check regularly that they haven’t reappeared. If the feature is straight up integrated into Explorer this is, by definition, impossible.

Then again, I will admit that I reserve full judgment for the time someone actually hacks the thing apart to see how it works, if it’s even possible. But I am not holding my breath. Since MS is nowadays even ignoring Group Policies for some things… yeah.

 

[Vayra86]

Trust is earned.

Unfortunately Microsoft squandered all of theirs a looooooooong time ago. Ahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

Trust hm? Let's have a brief look at data security and integrity wrt Microsoft and Windows. There's an enterprise world trusting Microsoft with their data. There's a massive userbase daily trusting its OS even to run mission critical operations.

Also, Microsoft has earned my trust for keeping a very functional web email client up for free ever since I went online. No funny business, no constant whining for a subscription, no data caps. Just functional email. Secure. Updated. And quite simply perfect for home use.

Do they also screw things up? Sure. But we have to remember that a lot of Microsoft's and our interests align. Microsoft's name depends on the worldwide trust it has garnered. And that trust isn't gone, it might even be their unique selling point in a world where Big Tech starts one cowboy move after another. Is it worrying that 11 and onwards are going ever more online? Sure. But the core principles still stand. The OS is functional and does it all, and quite well at that, too.

Its way too easy to bash on MS, after decades worth of stability in offering a service that so many people can do so many things with. Trust should have been earned by now, honestly, and pretty hard to erase, too. Let's compare to 'do no evil' Google/Alphabet. Or let's compare to Meta. Or even Apple, with its vastly overpriced hardware with all of its artificial limitations. They all manipulate their markets, but I think Microsoft has been rather clumsy at it in comparison to them, its clearly not their mojo, and it clearly is their mojo to keep everyone happy - including stakeholders that are shareholders. The much used MS products aren't still in our homes because they're not working or bad, are they? They're also not quite there anymore to 'gatekeep what you really want to do'; a lot of it runs on legacy versions of the OS just the same, or Linux.

 

[cal5582]

Trust hm? Let's have a brief look at data security and integrity wrt Microsoft and Windows. There's an enterprise world trusting Microsoft with their data. There's a massive userbase daily trusting its OS even to run mission critical operations.

Also, Microsoft has earned my trust for keeping a very functional web email client up for free ever since I went online. No funny business, no constant whining for a subscription, no data caps. Just functional email. Secure. Updated. And quite simply perfect for home use.

Do they also screw things up? Sure. But we have to remember that a lot of Microsoft's and our interests align. Microsoft's name depends on the worldwide trust it has garnered. And that trust isn't gone, it might even be their unique selling point in a world where Big Tech starts one cowboy move after another. Is it worrying that 11 and onwards are going ever more online? Sure. But the core principles still stand. The OS is functional and does it all, and quite well at that, too.

majority of coders who wrote the functional parts of windows were retired in about 2012 before the launch of windows 8. IIRC windows 8 was also around the time when they started petitioning the govt to allow in more h1b visas and when their QA became non-existant.

 

[Vayra86]

majority of coders who wrote the functional parts of windows were retired in about 2012 before the launch of windows 8. IIRC windows 8 was also around the time when they started petitioning the govt to allow in more h1b visas and when their QA became non-existant.

I'm not saying the world is perfect, and I don't agree with the direction Windows is going either. But still. What's there, is fine. And luckily there are ways to work around the bullshit. Ways Microsoft never has been very keen on paying too much attention to.

 

[Ruru]

Looks like I'm on 23H2 on my both machines and doesn't offer 24H2 from Windows update. I'll install it when it's offered as I like to keep my systems always up to date.

 

[Klemc]

I'm not saying the world is perfect, and I don't agree with the direction Windows is going either. But still. What's there, is fine. And luckily there are ways to work around the bullshit. Ways Microsoft never has been very keen on paying too much attention to.

Try MS-ADK, it's enough to get a perfect Windows. No need third party ttol, except i use AnWave to remove WD from the WIM afterall !

 

[R-T-B]

if you like OS level keyloggers go for it.

You've had those in the exact same degree since 10's original RTM release. They may even have been worse then.

That has not been a thing for a while for VERY serious legal reasons. Rather than risk being sued into the poor house and being shut down by multiple governments, microsoft wisely choose to remove that crap. The only service that was doing it was "diagtrack", which is easily removed and deleted anyway.

I'm pretty sure its still there under the " telemetry" guise but at least enterprise can opt out now.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

@jak_2456
It’s completely inert by default, at least as far as we can see. And is seemingly disable-able.

It's inert, until it isnt, until activating it is mandatory, or until it activates itself without premission.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, fool me 9000 times, you must be Microsoft.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Most people don’t run their PCs without the net access.

That can be true, but is more common than you realize.

I'm pretty sure its still there under the " telemetry" guise but at least enterprise can opt out now.

I'm reasonably certain it's gone, and you know me, I'm borderline paranoid about such things. The powers that be at microsoft do not want to risk the wrath of the medical sectors, legal sectors, educational and financial sectors. I test for key-logging regularly and have found no evidence since it was removed from the RTM release of Win11. Insiders builds have it but the public builds do not.

 

[Klemc]

That can be true, but is more common than you realize.

II ave no need for a 7800x3d & 4070ti while browsing, i use online only my DeskMini x300 even set CPU in BIOS at 35w (65w able).

 

[Deleted member 242843]

I would imagine that many of you are in the same boat as myself. Proper patch management practices do not allow for not installing updates because you do not like them. If an update does not cause problems (and occasionally they do..........sometimes large ones) then it gets installed.

I have had issues with windows updates, including ones that have screwed things up pretty good (though i have not ever seen it completely brick windows 11, i have heard of such things from trusted colleagues). I still have a few clients that cannot switch to windows 11 yet because of lack of support for software they use.

Microsoft is not the only, or worst, offender when it comes to updates breaking things. I've had update issues with a wide range of software from many different companies. Some are better than others, but there are simply too many hardware/software/network/environmental variables to get it right all the time. I've been frustrated with programmer types before (they are a strange breed) but their job can be quite difficult too, so i try to cut them some slack.

When it comes to the topic of 24H2.......do I really have a choice if i want continued support and functionality moving forward? The answer is no. Time and software keep on moving forward. I can either walk along or be dragged.

 

[Klemc]

I would imagine that many of you are in the same boat as myself. Proper patch management practices do not allow for not installing updates because you do not like them. If an update does not cause problems (and occasionally they do..........sometimes large ones) then it gets installed.

I have had issues with windows updates, including ones that have screwed things up pretty good (though i have not ever seen it completely brick windows, i have heard of such things from trusted colleagues). I still have a few clients that cannot switch to windows 11 yet because of lack of support for software they use.

Microsoft is not the only, or worst, offender when it comes to updates breaking things. I've had update issues with a wide range of software from many different companies. Some are better than others, but there are simply too many hardware/software/network/environmental variables to get it right all the time. I've been frustrated with programmer types before (they are a strange breed) but their job can be quite difficult too, so i try to cut them some slack.

When it comes to the topic of 24H2.......do I really have a choice if i want continued support and functionality moving forward? The answer is no. Time and software keep on moving forward. I can either walk along or be dragged.

Some big Win10-11 feature update can be skipped and wait 12 months by exemple, like new IA feature will be less worked on a year later and so MS will more work on the O/S gloabally instead focus all on IA and having others problems poping-up for a certain time, i'll do that, i keep 23H2 since i have no NPU !

 

[mechtech]

It's good if you use the LTSC version.

No chance I'd ever use standard Windows these days. Horrific.

If only that was an option for the rest of us.......................

 

[Event Horizon]

I'm also dual booting Mint Cinnamon. Very impressed with how well my non-native games run. I really miss MSI Afterburner and Reshade though.

 

[Launcestonian]

I don't understand the question.

If your Apple or Android phone or tablet offers a new OS update, do you refuse it? If your smart TV offers an update, do you refuse it? If your security app offers an update, do you refuse it?

I get putting off the update for a week or so to see if any issues arise. But of course I am going to install it! Keeping our systems current is one of, if not "the" best way to keep it, our data and our personal information secure. Keeping our computers current is "the" fundamental part of "practicing safe computing".

Yes, there has been the occasional update that caused problems. But it is important to note there are 1.6 Billion Windows systems out there, and each one became a unique machine within a couple minutes after its very first boot. This happened as the unique networking configuration was setup, as users configured their own unique "personalizations", setup their own security, installed and configured their own apps, printers, drives and partitions, USB devices, motherboards, RAM, graphics cards, etc. etc. etc. Then there are those users who dink with the default settings, then blame Microsoft when those changes hose their systems.

So OF COURSE there will be some problems. But every time there is, the numbers are blown WAY WAY out of proportion, with a single report gong viral and being repeated 100s and 1000s of times making the problem "appear" much worse than it really is.

The problem is, if there are just 0.1% of the users who genuinely have a problem with an update (and that is a high estimate, BTW), that is still, 1.6 million upset users. And 1.6 million upset people can make a lot of noise - especially when all the wannabe IT journalists, bloggers, and Windows haters jump on board and repeat those angry complaints.

It would seem all those wannabe journalists, bloggers and Windows haters expect Microsoft to test every update on every possible (1.6 billion) configuration before releasing it - as poor, inadequate in-house testing is almost always blamed.

I have 5 systems here and several more I am responsible for. I have never, not once, ever, since migrating from W7 to W10/11 had any Windows Update "brick" one of those computers. Not once! Worse case is the occasional (yes, scary!) lock up that was cleared by a simple reboot . There have been a couple failed updates that were automatically rolled back by Windows that were resolved in a week or two by MS sending out another update. But never, not once, ever did I have to manually roll-back an update, or worse, reinstall the OS due to a botched update.

Frankly, with 1.6 billion unique Windows computers out there, I am amazed, and must give credit and kudos to Microsoft, that there are not more actual problems. I guess some expect perfection 100% of the time, every time. I wonder if those critics can walk on water?

So yes, of course, I will install the update. While I don't expect any problems, with major updates, I may keep my fingers and toes crossed - but I will update. Should something go drastically wrong, I have my current backups. Don't you?

Very good post Bill, I'm in the same boat as you. The noisy minority on here can seem like a loud majority but then again lot of end users on here just hate Microsoft, but haters keep on hating cause' its who they are. The internet amplifies their emotions since it was popular.

 

[R-T-B]

The powers that be at microsoft do not want to risk the wrath of the medical sectors, legal sectors, educational and financial sectors.

There is a reason they provide a seperate SKU supporting telemetry off for several of these. Regardless, you won't detect it. Its part of the encrypted telemetry packet. Enterprise and Education SKUs can turn it off.

 

[Ivan Bliminse]

That would be a ... NO.
When i upgraded from Win10 to Win11 i wrongly assumed i had a kosher copy of Win11 installed, but on further research i found that in order to upgrade to 24h2 i'd have to purchase a mint edition copy from MS... This feels and sounds too dodgy so i'll just stick with what i have.

 

[chrcoluk]

Some big Win10-11 feature update can be skipped and wait 12 months by exemple, like new IA feature will be less worked on a year later and so MS will more work on the O/S gloabally instead focus all on IA and having others problems poping-up for a certain time, i'll do that, i keep 23H2 since i have no NPU !

AI they dumped in Office and Onedrive, and 10 is getting some 11 centric UI changes also, they seem to be wanting to push this and some other stuff everywhere.

The changes they made to Onedrive which I am still monitoring, Onedrive now uploads bits of data about every 30-60 seconds or so when it has nothing to sync, its uploading "something". It also now has a big local database it didnt previously have.

 

[lexluthermiester]

There is a reason they provide a seperate SKU supporting telemetry off for several of these.

Where? I have found no evidence of this. EDIT: The closest thing I could find reference of is this: https://www.hipaajournal.com/windows-11-hipaa-compliant/

Regardless, you won't detect it. Its part of the encrypted telemetry packet.

There are still ways to detect it.

Regardless, microsoft just being in possession of such data, regardless of the reason, would violate HIPAA on felony levels(on a per-instance basis), would violate Doctor/Patient confidentiality on felony levels(also on a per-instance basis) and in the legal sectors would violate Attorney/Client confidentiality on felony levels(on a per-instance basis), would violate court rules of confidentiality on a criminal level, some felony, some misdemeanor(again, also on a per-instance basis). This just goes on like that.

There is not one single term which can be metered by microsoft in the EULA which can mitigate or absolve and shield them of liability for these kinds of things. They are completely culpable whether they like it or not on both criminal AND civil levels. They wouldn't dare risk it outside of the insiders program. The execs at microsoft are dumb as rocks sometimes, but their attorney's are not.

EDIT:
The following document contains info that microsoft has to be compliant to; https://www.cms.gov/Outreach-and-Ed...roducts/Downloads/HIPAAPrivacyandSecurity.pdf

They must also obey the following, whether they like it or not;
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-45/subtitle-A/subchapter-C/part-160/subpart-A/section-160.103

Where it comes to the legal field compliance, there are too many examples to list here. I could go on for days. Outside of the clearly defined "Insiders Program", microsoft is NOT keystroke logging. Their own attorneys would never let them.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Most people don’t run their PCs without the net access.

That can be true, but is more common than you realize.

I agree with Lex. It is actually pretty widespread - a small minority in the big picture, but still quite a few. I would say it is pretty rare with most home users but there are many many organizations where their systems are connected to their intranet and remain isolated (either totally/physically or through firewalls - or both) from the internet. Updates are handled through sysadmin pushing out updates on their schedule, not Microsoft's.

PoS (point of sale) computers are often connected/isolated this way. They are not "stand-alone" because they have to access their servers for pricing (which may change daily or even more often) and verify shopper "perks" cards. Plus product sales are recorded for inventory, end-of-day auditing, automated reordering and overnight restocking purposes. Oh, and of course, taxes.

So while these computers are networked, they have no access to the internet.

***

I'm reasonably certain it's gone, and you know me, I'm borderline paranoid about such things. The powers that be at microsoft do not want to risk the wrath of the medical sectors, legal sectors, educational and financial sectors. I test for key-logging regularly and have found no evidence since it was removed from the RTM release of Win11. Insiders builds have it but the public builds do not.

I can't believe the topic of telemetry is being harped on again. As @Launcestonian noted, haters will hate.

Again, I agree with Lex on this. But it is not just Microsoft avoiding the wrath of medical, legal, education and financial sectors. They don't want to rile up all the wannabe IT journalists, bloggers and Microsoft haters who love to infect the public with misinformation and create another PR nightmare for MS that is based on untruths!

I say "wannabe" because real journalists follow an honorable code of ethics that requires them to do their due diligence to learn, verify and then report the true facts. Not simply make up entertaining (for some) stories and parrot falsehoods.

Anyway, concerning telemetry, even at its worse, Microsoft is NOT trying to steal our passwords, full name, birth date, street address, bank account and credit card information, Social Security or Insurance Numbers, personal contacts, or read our emails. Nor is it trying to overwrite security certifications, redirect us to malicious sites, or take control of our computers to send spam or distribute malware, or participate in DDoS attacks against others.

If you connect to your network via Ethernet, the closest Microsoft knows where we are physically located is our ISP's POP (point of presence). The POP is the physical location where our ISP connects our computer to the Internet backbone. In my case, that is 6 miles across town. If you connect to your network via wifi, then, sadly, there's a good chance your WAP (wireless access point) is reporting your exact location. Another reason to always use Ethernet when possible.

On the other hand, our ISP already knows our home address, our real and full name, birth date, and our billing information too. They also know every single website we visit and what we did while there. And they absolutely collect and log that telemetry. But that's nothing!!

Our cell phone carriers are even worse. They know our home address, our real and full name, birth date, and our billing information too. But they also know who we have talked to and texted. But worse, our cell phone carrier knows exactly where we are standing to within a couple meters. They know the store we are in, the aisle and even the products in the aisle we are standing in front of! This is how they might send you an ad for the same shampoo you are standing in front of! They know where you've been, how long you were there, the direction you are heading now and how fast you are moving!

Then of course, there's Google and Facebook - companies who work on the premise of learning everything about us and using (and sharing and selling) that information for their profits!

Frankly, when it comes to privacy and telemetry concerns, Microsoft is the least of our worries - or sure should be.

I'm borderline paranoid about such things.

FTR, leaning on the paranoid side of the scale is way better than being lackadaisical about security. That is especially true for those of us who earn our livelihood in this business. Extremes on either end is unhealthy. But nothing wrong with being borderline paranoid. It keeps us aware, guard up, and disciplined.

@_roman_ Sorry my post made you angry. Not sure why because it is, sadly, the truth. Note I never said MS does not use telemetry. I just pointed out there are much greater evils and threats in our daily lives.

 

[Yearofthegoat]

No. Because it breaks my MIDI controllers.

(This problem has been flagged up by many other users in Steinberg and FL Studio forums. Rolling back to 23H2 solves it).

 

[R-T-B]

I guess I could be out of date on this, but in 10 RTM when I studied it in detail a keylogger as I described was certainly present. That's not media sensationalim bill, thats just fact. It would surprise me greatly if they backtracked: Like I stated, they have seperate SKUs with additional GP keys for data sensitive organizations (I know because I use them).

If they backtracked, good on them, but knowing nothing else, I was using Occams Razor, and assuming they had not.

 

[Frick]

I guess I could be out of date on this, but in 10 RTM when I studied it in detail a keylogger as I described was certainly present. That's not media sensationalim bill, thats just fact. It would surprise me greatly if they backtracked: Like I stated, they have seperate SKUs with additional GP keys for data sensitive organizations (I know because I use them).

If they backtracked, good on them, but knowing nothing else, I was using Occams Razor, and assuming they had not.

So what is this exactly? Is it the Let MS Improve My Writing or whatever it's called on setup, or is it an actual keylogger that records every single thing your input devices do? I saw a lot of stuff like this on release but never any real proof of what one would classically consider a keylogger.

 

[R-T-B]

So what is this exactly? Is it the Let MS Improve My Writing or whatever it's called on setup, or is it an actual keylogger that records every single thing your input devices do? I saw a lot of stuff like this on release but never any real proof of what one would classically consider a keylogger.

Back in the day at release it was a fullblown keylogger under the diagtrack service.

That service and the associated keylogger may now be gone. As I said its been a while since I looked and I was filling in my knowledge using assumptions of what was likely, which probably wasn't the best approach in hindsight.

 

[MrDweezil]

I've been on the beta insider track for years and if it wasn't for newsposts on tech sites I'd never be able to tell you anything has changed.