Wednesday, January 3rd 2018

Dear Intel, If a Glaring Exploit Affects Intel CPUs and Not AMD, It's a Flaw

Intel tried desperately in a press note late Wednesday to brush aside allegations that the recent hardware security-vulnerability are a "bug" or a "flaw," and that the media is exaggerating the issue, notwithstanding the facts that the vulnerability only affects Intel x86 processors and not AMD x86 processors (despite the attempt to make it appear in the press-release as if the vulnerability is widespread among other CPU vendors such as AMD and ARM by simply throwing their brand names into the text); notwithstanding the fact that Intel, Linux kernel lead developers with questionable intentions, and other OS vendors such as Microsoft are keeping their correspondence under embargoes and their Linux kernel update mechanism is less than transparent; notwithstanding the fact that Intel shares are on a slump at the expense of AMD and NVIDIA shares, and CEO Brian Kraznich sold a lot of Intel stock while Intel was secretly firefighting this issue.

The exploits, titled "Meltdown," is rather glaring to be a simple vulnerability, and is described by the people who discovered it, as a bug. Apparently, it lets software running on one virtual machine (VM) access data of another VM, which hits at the very foundations of cloud-computing (integrity and security of virtual machines), and keeps customers wanting cost-effective cloud services at bay. It critically affects the very business models of Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and Alibaba, some of the world's largest cloud computing providers; and strikes at the economics of choosing Intel processors over AMD, in cloud-computing data centers, since the software patches that mitigate the vulnerability, if implemented ethically, significantly reduce performance of machines running Intel processors and not machines running AMD processors (that don't require the patch in the first place). You can read Intel's goalpost-shifting masterpiece after the break.
Intel Responds to Security Research Findings
Intel and other technology companies have been made aware of new security research describing software analysis methods that, when used for malicious purposes, have the potential to improperly gather sensitive data from computing devices that are operating as designed. Intel believes these exploits do not have the potential to corrupt, modify or delete data.

Recent reports that these exploits are caused by a "bug" or a "flaw" and are unique to Intel products are incorrect. Based on the analysis to date, many types of computing devices - with many different vendors' processors and operating systems - are susceptible to these exploits.

Intel is committed to product and customer security and is working closely with many other technology companies, including AMD, ARM Holdings and several operating system vendors, to develop an industry-wide approach to resolve this issue promptly and constructively. Intel has begun providing software and firmware updates to mitigate these exploits. Contrary to some reports, any performance impacts are workload-dependent, and, for the average computer user, should not be significant and will be mitigated over time.

Intel is committed to the industry best practice of responsible disclosure of potential security issues, which is why Intel and other vendors had planned to disclose this issue next week when more software and firmware updates will be available. However, Intel is making this statement today because of the current inaccurate media reports.

Check with your operating system vendor or system manufacturer and apply any available updates as soon as they are available. Following good security practices that protect against malware in general will also help protect against possible exploitation until updates can be applied.

Intel believes its products are the most secure in the world and that, with the support of its partners, the current solutions to this issue provide the best possible security for its customers.
==END==

Linus Torvalds wrote an interesting comment on one of his Linux kernel mailers.
From Linus Torvalds <>

Date Wed, 3 Jan 2018 15:51:35 -0800

Subject Re: Avoid speculative indirect calls in kernel

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 3:09 PM, Andi Kleen wrote:

> This is a fix for Variant 2 in https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2018/01/reading-privileged-memory-with-side.html

> Any speculative indirect calls in the kernel can be tricked to execute any kernel code, which may allow side channel attacks that can leak arbitrary kernel data.

Why is this all done without any configuration options?

A *competent* CPU engineer would fix this by making sure speculation doesn't happen across protection domains. Maybe even a L1 I$ that is keyed by CPL.

I think somebody inside of Intel needs to really take a long hard look at their CPU's, and actually admit that they have issues instead of writing PR blurbs that say that everything works as designed.

.. and that really means that all these mitigation patches should be written with "not all CPU's are crap" in mind.

Or is Intel basically saying "we are committed to selling you shit forever and ever, and never fixing anything"?

Because if that's the case, maybe we should start looking towards the ARM64 people more.

Please talk to management. Because I really see exactly two possibibilities:

Intel never intends to fix anything

OR

these workarounds should have a way to disable them.

Which of the two is it?

Linus
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53 Comments on Dear Intel, If a Glaring Exploit Affects Intel CPUs and Not AMD, It's a Flaw

#26
RejZoR
xkm1948Time to go RyZen 2 my man, or Threadripper 2. Your choice, 5820K may need to rest. :D
That may in fact happen. It may not affect me as insignificant consumer, but since I'm security conscious, it's very likely that I will change platform. Considering how widespread Intel CPU's are (huge market share) and how security flaw can't even be fixed, it's very high probability that someone will try to exploit this on a huge scale which would affect even home users. And I'm not gonna take chances...

@R-T-B
Well, I know from AV side that a lot of tools and protection features use virtualization for malware analysis or protection itself. If malware in such environment can still access the rest, that's a huge issue. Of course, I'm not gonna rush selling my system straight away, but I'll keep an eye on the situation. I never made big of a deal of Intel flaws that were fixable with firmware or OS microcode. But this one is a big one. And the fact that Intel was trying to cover it up, sell stocks in the meanwhile and god knows what else you kinda lose trust in such company. I know money is money and every company goes into damage control, but still...
Posted on Reply
#27
R0H1T
RejZoRThat may in fact happen. It may not affect me as insignificant consumer, but since I'm security conscious, it's very likely that I will change platform. Considering how widespread Intel CPU's are (huge market share) and how security flaw can't even be fixed, it's very high probability that someone will try to exploit this on a huge scale which would affect even home users. And I'm not gonna take chances...

@R-T-B
Well, I know from AV side that a lot of tools and protection features use virtualization for malware analysis or protection itself. If malware in such environment can still access the rest, that's a huge issue. Of course, I'm not gonna rush selling my system straight away, but I'll keep an eye on the situation. I never made big of a deal of Intel flaws that were fixable with firmware or OS microcode. But this one is a big one. And the fact that Intel was trying to cover it up, sell stocks in the meanwhile and god knows what else you kinda lose trust in such company. I know money is money and every company goes into damage control, but still...
Tbh that isn't just Intel, I remember Union carbide fleeing India after the Bhopal Gas leak & then paying next to nothing as compensation. I know it's unwise to compare tragedies but BP paid what 20+ billion dollars for an oil spill, these guys paid less than a tenth for 1000x loss of lives! Corporations just don't care for you, that's why I take don't offense when they get penalized, not often enough though.

As for the bug itself, it was revealed ~3 quarters back so yes everyone has a right to blame Intel.
Posted on Reply
#28
londiste
lilunxm12The point is that AMD processors are apparently not vulnerable to Meltdown and the performance hitting PITA patch is for Meltdown not Spectre, so the conspiracy theory is still there; Why the initial PITA patch flags all X86 machines instead of intel only?
This is simply security best practises. In case of any doubt, mitigation will be applied.
Details for this crap became public 2 days ago. While researchers and patch authors definitely knew, not everyone in the decisions chain did.
Posted on Reply
#29
john_
This security bug proves that AMD processors are incompatible with Intel processors, as many Intel fans where saying for years. :laugh:
Posted on Reply
#31
Parn
lilunxm12Some ARM processors are also vulnerable to Meltdown
Source:developer.arm.com/support/security-update
Looks like most high performance ARM Cortex CPUs are affected too. Maybe I should stick to a low/mid tier phone with the A53 cores. Phones nowadays store so many sensitive information that a breach would be very costly. It is also much more difficult to prevent malware/malicious links on smartphones because of all those links shared by friends/families through many different social chat apps.

As for my next desktop/home server build, I'll be going for Ryzen 2 for sure. Even though it is very unlikely this bug would cause any real damage to a PC locally assuming the user has some basic computer knowledges and is vigilant, with the kind of attitude Intel has expressed towards the issue why should I keep supporting their products? I was a long time AMD user from the original K7 up until Phenom II. I only switched over to the dark side (Lynnfield i7) because of the huge disappointment of bulldozer. Now it's time to switch back.
Posted on Reply
#33
londiste
Two different flaws, Meltdown and Spectre.
spectreattack.com/

Interesting that some ARM variants seem to be vulnerable to Meltdown as admitted by ARM themselves. Researchers did leave ARM and AMD vulnerability a bit of an open question in the paper.
Spectre seems to be the more critical one though as mitigation is much more complex.
Posted on Reply
#34
noext
xkm1948Time to go RyZen 2 my man, or Threadripper 2. Your choice, 5820K may need to rest. :D
well unless ryzen 2 , go for 4.5ghz+ , my 5820k has a long life ahead of him
Posted on Reply
#35
EarthDog
Lol, another article and subsequent thread with the same links that were dropped yesterday. What a cluster...

Is this an editorial???
Posted on Reply
#37
Steevo
Intel CEO knew about this when he sold his stock. Intel is about to get a huge fine, also should be a good time to buy Intel stock after the bloodbath.
Posted on Reply
#38
R-T-B
EarthDogIs this an editorial???
It should be marked as one given it's writing style, but it isn't.

PS: Btarunr, you know I love you and the whole TPU group like family, so remember this is constructive criticism when I say:

Mark yo' shit.
Posted on Reply
#39
dozenfury
These bugs raise all kinds of concerns at the datacenter level, but from a user standpoint my main worry would be any cloud stored backups/data that could be at risk. Those are on cloud VM's on the backend one way or another and mostly through AWS or Azure even if it's through a third-party service that uses them. Another good reason if you are using desktop backup services like Dropbox, OneDrive, etc. to encrypt it before sending. There are plenty of free and paid apps out there that will take care of that like Boxcryptor.
Posted on Reply
#40
R0H1T
The nature of the attack (meltdown) makes it nearly impossible to trace it back to a source!
I really wonder now if this wasn't used by any number of nefarious elements, NSA or criminals, in the past?
Posted on Reply
#41
Steevo
R0H1TThe nature of the attack (meltdown) makes it nearly impossible to trace it back to a source!
I really wonder now if this wasn't used by any number of nefarious elements, NSA or criminals, in the past?
Perhaps it was and has been a design "feature" and was just exposed by people.
Posted on Reply
#42
R0H1T
SteevoPerhaps it was and has been a design "feature" and was just exposed by people.
It's possible & we won't ever know for certain, kinda like the Kennedy assassination or is that too much tinfoil?
Posted on Reply
#44
R0H1T
There's a big drop in AC, though not sure why some games were tested at 1080p & others at 720p? A lot of storage reviews will also need to be updated afterwards, would be interesting if NVMe drives take a major hit looking at those initial phoronix benchmarks.
Posted on Reply
#45
64K
R0H1TThere's a big drop in AC, though not sure why some games were tested at 1080p & others at 720p? A lot of storage reviews will also need to be updated afterwards, would be interesting if NVMe drives take a major hit looking at those initial phoronix benchmarks.
I don't know why the different resolutions but usually this guy when testing the CPU benches at 720p with his 980 Ti to try to eliminate the GPU as much of a factor.

Not sure why there's a huge space after my post either. That wasn't there when I was posting and I can't delete it. :confused:
Posted on Reply
#46
bencrutz
R-T-BUh, Spectre is the one without the fix, and it too affects all OSes (and linux, under default kernel settings)... It's by nature a hardware issue.

Who the heck made that chart? He doesn't know anything. I think both spectre 1 and 2 affect pretty much all known speculative execution processors atm. Maybe I'm mistaken here, but this article I read from a decently respectable publication suggests otherwise:

Read:

arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/meltdown-and-spectre-every-modern-processor-has-unfixable-security-flaws/

In the meantime, let me help you fanboy:

Intel has spectre too!!!1!! AMD does NOT have MELTDOWN!
according to THIS: spectre (variant 1) can be done on AMD with eBPF JIT on (non-default state), it can't be done with eBPF JIT off (the default state), on the other hand, on intel CPU, variant 1 can be done on the PoC regardless the state of eBPF JIT, hence on AMD it is software fixable by simply forcing the eBPF JIT off.
Posted on Reply
#47
R0H1T
bencrutzaccording to THIS: spectre (variant 1) can be done on AMD with eBPF JIT on (non-default state), it can't be done with eBPF JIT off (the default state), on the other hand, on intel CPU, variant 1 can be done on the PoC regardless the state of eBPF JIT, hence on AMD it is software fixable by simply forcing the eBPF JIT off.
Compared to meltdown, spectre is relatively harmless but there are 4 exploits demonstrated for these 2 flaws. There is a non zero possibility that there may be more variations of such attacks. There's a lot of man hours needed to get to the bottom of it, interestingly Google Zero could still be working on them.
Posted on Reply
#48
R-T-B
bencrutzaccording to THIS: spectre (variant 1) can be done on AMD with eBPF JIT on (non-default state), it can't be done with eBPF JIT off (the default state), on the other hand, on intel CPU, variant 1 can be done on the PoC regardless the state of eBPF JIT, hence on AMD it is software fixable by simply forcing the eBPF JIT off.
Yeah, I backed off that comment a bit later in another thread (we have way too many).

I was confused because there is more than one spectre type.
Posted on Reply
#49
lilunxm12
londisteThis is simply security best practises. In case of any doubt, mitigation will be applied.
Details for this crap became public 2 days ago. While researchers and patch authors definitely knew, not everyone in the decisions chain did.
I'm not familiar with industry but in my opinion fixing such a critical vulnerability all people in decision chain should have good understanding of how it works. And in fact Linus as head developer isn't happy with that patch either.
.. and that really means that all these mitigation patches should be written with "not all CPU's are crap" in mind.
Posted on Reply
#50
rtwjunkie
PC Gaming Enthusiast
64KNot sure why there's a huge space after my post either. That wasn't there when I was posting and I can't delete it. :confused:
That has been happening since the new forum with pictures. I'm pretty sure I told W1z about it.
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