RandallFlaggNet shows you nothing in that regard as it includes capital expenditures

dragontamer5788Ah got it.

So you don't know how to read a financial statement.

Spoiler: capex is under cash flow and is not subtracted from net. This is basic stuff. If you buy a $1 billion factory, then it means -$1 billion cash but +$1billion in assets, for a net change of $0.

What is subtracted is depreciation. If your $1 billion factory will only last 20 years, then you need to make $50 million / year to counteract it.

RandallFlaggActually I imagine that Intel will lower prices earlier, even if not officially. You can already get a 10700 for $299 at Microcenter, $319 at Newegg, and $317 at B&H Photo. Given that the 10700 has a fan with it, this actually makes it cheaper than a 5600X @$299 + $30 fan.

I think the 10850K launch makes a lot more sense now. Intel probably knew that the 5800X would come in right at $450, which is exactly where the 10c/20t 10850K sits.

Probably something worth noting. Intel 14nm, they own the fab, and it's super efficient with high yields. I don't think AMD/TSMC will win a price war with Intel, I bet Intel could sell the 10850K for $300 and still make more money than AMD can make on a 5800X at $450. But it sure would be nice if someone would start a price war.

RandallFlaggNet Income is the bottom line so it most definitely includes costs associated with R&D.

Net shows you nothing in that regard as it includes capital expenditures like building new plants, developing new products, marketing costs, and various administrative costs. So in fact, Net is the one that is 'fake' and can be manipulated. A highly profitable company can invest heavily in capital expenditures and appear to be broke on Net.

Capital expenditures for physical assets also show up here albeit indirectly

dragontamer5788You didn't say R&D earlier. You said CapEx.

dragontamer5788Which is just factually wrong entirely. If you spend $10 Billion on a factory, it will show up as a change of $0 on Net.

CalmmoMine was 500 ~3.5 months after launch. That was after actively trying acquire one for the entirety of those first 3 months and not being able to.
(people like to talk about nvidia paper launches these days, but AMD did exact the same thing with their R9 CPUs just last year, wont be surpised if its the same with 5000 again)

TheUn4seenOh my. Here we go with the hype again. You see, I heard exactly the same claims just before getting the 955BE. What a horribly bad CPU it was, completely obliterated by an overclocked i3-540. Turned me off AMD and their false claims for years. They can't produce a GPU which is clearly faster than my 1080ti from almost four years ago, which I don't even use any more. They can't even match Intel's performance in games, all while spewing crazy claims before every launch.
Let's wait and see the actual reviews, not the usual marketing bag of crap. If they are actually as good as claimed than that's great, but we'll see.

(disclaimer: I'm not a millennial, hence I don't see any rationale in streaming games or recording the gameplay. I'm also not a hobbyist "youtube video" maker. I only care for raw performance in day-to-day and real time tasks. For doing important things I have serious work machines at my place of employment).

R0H1TThat's not an argument when AMD's selling 4 gens of Ryzen, including the upcoming zen3 series. Absolute performance, perf/$ & perf/w is still vastly in their favor!

RandallFlaggI think you missed it, again. A $10B factory built 5 years ago most definitely shows up on the Net Income statement. It shows up in the form of depreciation. If you build 10 $10B factorys, one each year, and depreciate them over 10 years, then on year 10 with the 10th factory your depreciation will be $10B. To say that it does not show up at all on net income is totally false, it shows up spread out over time.

RandallFlaggMeh, not really. By including old gens the price/$ argument begins to unravel. Intel old gens are also for sale. What’s resale value of an 8700k vs 1700x? What was true total cost of ownership?

Makaveli

R0H1TWhat's the resale value go to do with anything? What's the price of a 1800x or 2700x & a suitable (cheap) motherboard? Now tell me what a brand new 8700k + z370 costs :rolleyes:

Your argument falls flat on it face when Intel itself kills their old gen instead of making them cheap, not to mention the effin motherboard/chipset mess!

oobymachAnyone else notice they skipped 4000? My guess is a hardware flaw that was only noticed partway through manufacturing, why else would they skip a gen?

RandallFlaggThe same thing is happening in AMD space, the 1600X at Newegg is $245 vs the 3600 at $199. Using your logic, I guess AMD is price gouging huh?

Th3pwn3rI waited a long time for AMD to finally release info on the 5000 series. That info came out and I what a big MEH from me. I was holding off on a build due to one of my machines having issues. Well after seeing what AMD is going to offer I bought a 3600 and a B550 motherboard for when AMD comes to their senses and drops their prices or offers something similar to price/performance that the 3600 offered. As I see it right now the Ryzen 5000 series has to compete against the 3600 and is going to sit on lots of 5000 series CPUs until 3600 stock is cleared out. I paid $160 for the 3600 today at Microcenter this morning(Saturday) and at that price why buy anything else or wait for the 5000 series, I do like the 65w tdp on the $299 5600x but I'm not going to pay almost double just because the TDP is low. The Microcenter employee told me they had sold 93 of the 3600 this week and I made the 94th purchase at that store and there's a reason for that. AMD isn't going to see the same sales and most people have done their panic/pandemic builds already. I don't think it's just AMD that is going to see a decline in sales as I think Intel sales will drop as well but I think the 5000 series launch is going to be a dud. Next up is Big Navi, I hope I'm not disappointed with that too, I'm holding onto my 2080ti until I can either get a 3080 or AMD stops pissing around and finally offers a real GPU.

Zach_01You have a 1200$ MSRP card and 300$ is too much for a CPU with better gaming performance that 3900XT/3950X?

Ok!

Th3pwn3rI paid $899 plus tax Ok! And the price is relative, if Intel comes out with a GPU that's $1000 and offers a good performance increase I'd consider that too. Not trying to brag but I have almost $6,000 worth of subwoofers in my living room, however, I have a cheap $100 sub too, it performs as expected. It's about prices being relative.

RandallFlaggIntel doesn't kill their old gen, they simply stop making them.

RandallFlaggYou seem to attribute bizarre price fluctuations when supply on something old dries up to the manufacturer.

RandallFlaggThe same thing is happening in AMD space, the 1600X at Newegg is $245 vs the 3600 at $199. Using your logic, I guess AMD is price gouging huh?

RandallFlaggAnd if you think Zen 2 (3000) series will maintain availability for long, you might want to re-think that. It's highly unlikely that AMD will keep manufacturing cheap chips in the expensive and constrained TSMC 7nm pipeline.

R0H1TNo they really kill them, EOL is the term you're looking for. With their chipset BS, if you're on the wrong gen you are locked out of upgrading!
You seem to be contradicting yourself, aren't you? With post SKL chips they're just rebadging their old stuff & still doing the chipset BS :rolleyes:
...

RandallFlaggAnd this is different from AMD how? You gonna run Zen 3 on a B350, after all it is an AM4 socket? For that matter, B450 is a dicey proposition and depends on the motherboard manufacturer. At least with Intel, you cannot insert the chip into a motherboard with a completely incompatible chipset.