Sunday, October 30th 2022

PSA: Don't Just Arm-wrestle with 16-pin 12VHPWR for Cable-Management, It Will Burn Up

Despite sticking with PCI-Express Gen 4 as its host interface, the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 "Ada" graphics card standardizes the new 12+4 pin ATX 12VHPWR power connector, even across custom-designs by NVIDIA's add-in card (AIC) partners. This tiny connector is capable of delivering 600 W of power continuously, and briefly take 200% excursions (spikes). Normally, it should make your life easier as it condenses multiple 8-pin PCIe power connectors into one neat little connector; but in reality the connector is proving to be quite impractical. For starters, most custom RTX 4090 graphics cards have their PCBs being only two-thirds of the actual card length, which puts the power connector closer to the middle of the graphics card, making it aesthetically unappealing, but then there's a bigger problem, as uncovered by Buildzoid of Actually Hardcore Overclocking, an expert with PC hardware power-delivery designs.

CableMod, a company that specializes in custom modular-PSU cables targeting the case-modding community and PC enthusiasts, has designed a custom 12VHPWR cable that plugs into multiple 12 V output points on a modular PSU, converting them to a 16-pin 12VHPWR. It comes with a pretty exhaustive set of dos and don'ts; the latter are more relevant: apparently, you should not try to arm-wrestle with an 12VHPWR connector: do not attempt to bend the cable horizontally or vertically close to the connector, but leave a distance of at least 3.5 cm (1.37-inch). This ensures reduced pressure on the contacts in the connector. Combine this with the already tall RTX 4090 graphics cards, and you have yourself a power connector that's impractical for most standard-width mid-tower cases (chassis), with no room for cable-management. Attempting to "wrestle" with the connector, and somehow bending it to your desired shape, will cause improper contacts, which pose a fire-hazard.
Update Oct 26th: There are multiple updates to the story.

The 12VHPWR connector is a new standard, which means most PSUs in the market lack it, much in the same way as PSUs some 17 years ago lacked PCIe power connectors; and graphics cards included 4-pin Molex-to-PCIe adapters. NVIDIA probably figured out early on when implementing this connector that it cannot rely on adapters by AICs or PSU vendors to perform reliably (i.e. not cause problems with their graphics cards, resulting in a flood of RMAs); and so took it upon itself to design an adapter that converts 8-pin PCIe connectors to a 12VHPWR, which all AICs are required to include with their custom-design RTX 4090 cards. This adapter is rightfully overengineered by NVIDIA to be as reliable as possible, and NVIDIA even includes a rather short service-span of 30 connections and disconnections; before the contacts of the adapter begin to wear out and become unreliable. The only problem with NVIDIA's adapter is that it is ugly, and ruins the aesthetics of the otherwise brilliant RTX 4090 custom designs; which means a market is created for custom adapters.

Update 15:59 UTC: A user on Reddit who goes by "reggie_gakil" posted pictures of a GeForce RTX 4090 graphics card with with a burnt out 12VHPWR. While the card itself is "fine" (functional); the NVIDIA-designed adapter that converts 4x 8-pin PCIe to 12VHPWR, has a few melted pins that are probably caused due to improper contact, causing them to overheat or short. "I don't know how it happened but it smelled badly and I saw smoke. Definetly the Adapter who had Problems as card still seems to work," goes the caption with these images.

Update Oct 26th: Aris Mpitziopoulos, our associate PSU reviewer and editor of Hardware Busters, did an in-depth video presentation on the issue, where he details how the 12VHPWR design may not be at fault, but extreme abuse by end-users attempting to cable-manage their builds. Mpitziopoulos details the durability of the connector in its normal straight form, versus when tightly bent. You can catch the presentation on YouTube here.

Update Oct 26th: In related news, AMD confirmed that none of its upcoming Radeon RX 7000 series RDNA3 graphics cards features the 12VHPWR connector, and that the company will stick to 8-pin PCIe connectors.

Update Oct 30th: Jon Gerow, aka Jonny Guru, has posted a write-up about the 12VHPWR connector on his website. It's an interesting read with great technical info.
Sources: Buildzoid (Twitter), reggie_gakil (Reddit), Hardware Busters (YouTube)
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230 Comments on PSA: Don't Just Arm-wrestle with 16-pin 12VHPWR for Cable-Management, It Will Burn Up

#152
Mussels
Freshwater Moderator
This is quite the fail
Posted on Reply
#153
LabRat 891
Arkz... there's 6 12v pins sharing 50A, then 6 ground pins returning.
Gotta wonder why Intel, nVidia, etc. didn't move to an insertable PCB type connector?
Reading the layout of the new 12-pin in text reminded me of the 1.2kw 12VDC PSUs I have that interface all that amperage over exposed traces on a single long PCB 'finger'.
I'd be concerned about insertion/removal life, but this 12-pin jobby is already limited to 30 cycles, by spec.
Posted on Reply
#154
OneMoar
There is Always Moar
so I was right bonded connector was the problem
I love knowing everything
who wants to celebrate my impending godhood with me

I promise a place by my side who ever supports my ascension
Posted on Reply
#155
jonnyGURU
LabRat 891Gotta wonder why Intel, nVidia, etc. didn't move to an insertable PCB type connector?
Reading the layout of the new 12-pin in text reminded me of the 1.2kw 12VDC PSUs I have that interface all that amperage over exposed traces on a single long PCB 'finger'.
I'd be concerned about insertion/removal life, but this 12-pin jobby is already limited to 30 cycles, by spec.
nVidia and Dell. Not Intel. Intel's a member of the PSI-SIG, of course, but the 12VHPWR spec was sponsored by Nvidia and Dell.
Posted on Reply
#156
Totally
”8pInZ bUrN uP t00” folks where y'all at?

So are you all implying 8-pins too have this exemplary build quality?

Seriously, that is insane. How did something like that even make it off paper?
Posted on Reply
#157
RJARRRPCGP
The limit of disconnections and reconnections, reminds me of what Intel said (or what Intel reportedly said) for LGA sockets, making some users panic just over swapping CPUs!

Making me wonder if changing back to the Q9450 (on my Asus Maximus II Gene) will make the socket go bad. Sigh. :(
Posted on Reply
#158
jonnyGURU
Totally”8pInZ bUrN uP t00” folks where y'all at?



So are you all implying 8-pins too have this exemplary build quality?

Seriously, that is insane. How did something like that even make it off paper?
The 8-pin side is just as bad. :D

They take one or two +12V wire and one ground wire for each 8-pin and solder the wire across the four terminals, left to right. Some of the +12V leads go to the PCB to power the IC. So while you have four 8-pin connectors, at the end of the day you still only have 6 +12V and 6 ground when all four are plugged in.
Posted on Reply
#159
efikkan
CrackongIgor just confirmed the Built by Nvidia adaptor has such a high quality, that the wires are held (only) by soldering onto a very very thin piece of metal , and can be broken with very little force.
The card doesn't even know one of the soldering is broken, cause all the pins are joint inside the adaptor so the pin didn't "disconnected" , the load just spread to other wires and pump up the Amps (and wire temps) , it just keeps going until it melts.

What a wonderful design !
This explanation makes far more sense. The original theory of pins making full contact sounded strange to me (in #97).

I hope this discovery leads to extensive tests of all such plugs and cables on the market, in case there are even more design flaws.

But I would still prefer if this standard was abandoned. I think the margins of error are a bit too low, but that's my opinion.

60ºC still sounds a little hot to me. What is a comparable result for a 8-pin under full continous load?
Posted on Reply
#160
jonnyGURU
efikkanThis explanation makes far more sense. The original theory of pins making full contact sounded strange to me (in #97).

I hope this discovery leads to extensive tests of all such plugs and cables on the market, in case there are even more design flaws.

But I would still prefer if this standard was abandoned. I think the margins of error are a bit too low, but that's my opinion.

60ºC still sounds a little hot to me. What is a comparable result for a 8-pin under full continous load?
The "theory" of pins losing connectivity isn't strange at all. While they don't come dislodged in an up or down (referred to in the technical documentation as North and South) direction from the connector, East or West bends do cause the terminals to go cock-eyed inside the housing, which increases resistance on that terminal forcing the current to take the path of least resistance instead. This causes those terminals to eventually burn up. This is why Corsair decided NOT to put 12VHPWR connectors on their ATX 3.0 PSUs and instead continue using the 2x 8-pin to 1x 12VHPWR cable instead. Because the typical use case for a PSU is in the bottom, with a shroud and the necessity to do a "Eastern" bend out of the shroud to go up the back of the motherboard tray. And then given the "hidden" fashion of today's PSUs within shrouds, such damage will likely go unnoticed.

Yes. 60°C is high. But the spec for the connector is actually 70°C.

Typical mini-fit jr. connectors are rated at 65°C. But they also don't tend to get as hot because they're not as "dense" as the 12VHPWR connector's.
Posted on Reply
#161
Tropick
jonnyGURUBut they also don't tend to get as hot because they're not as "dense" as the 12VHPWR connector's.
Sounds like this 12VHPWR connector is proving to be pretty dense in a whole bunch of different ways.
Posted on Reply
#162
mechtech
Can we get a sign like this?? Except Do not bend the 16-pin cable? ;)

Posted on Reply
#163
Totally
jonnyGURUThe 8-pin side is just as bad. :D

They take one or two +12V wire and one ground wire for each 8-pin and solder the wire across the four terminals, left to right. Some of the +12V leads go to the PCB to power the IC. So while you have four 8-pin connectors, at the end of the day you still only have 6 +12V and 6 ground when all four are plugged in.
Yeah, but that's happening on the PSU side not on a tiny little bit of real estate at the load side connector.
Posted on Reply
#164
Mussels
Freshwater Moderator
This all greatly reminds me of why i tell everyone not to use any adaptors or extensions on modern GPUs

These melted on an undervolted 3090, locked to under 250W



Native direct cables or risk a fire. Nvidia was dumb to force this new connector so early, they just didnt want the stigma of 4x 8 pin connectors on these GPUs
Posted on Reply
#165
OneMoar
There is Always Moar
the kicker is you don't need 4 X 8 pin
you only need two the 8 pin connector and 80% of most PSUs are perfectly capable of delivering 260W per connector (and thats being conservative)
its just nobody wanted to test there units for that
+ you still have idiots that put two 8 pin connectors on a single lead if they just did away with that we could have plenty of power for even a overclocked card

what we need is a proper solid pcb adapter with heavy duty power and ground planes with a big fat chunk of copper to dissipate heat

I would also again suggest that AIBs put temp sensors in the connector area so if it starts getting toasty there is no fire this is a good idea regardless of the quality of cable or adapter and negatigable cost as most IC controllers already have the capability

also suggest changing the connector on the gpu side to ABS so that in the event of a failure it doesn't smoke a 1500 card
Posted on Reply
#166
Mussels
Freshwater Moderator
I mean, WTF isn't there a solid right-angled connector from the very beginning?
Posted on Reply
#168
TheDeeGee
I check the official Nvidia reddit daily now, and there are atleast 2 reports every 24 hours with pictures of new melted adapters of various stages. How there hasn't been a recall yet is beyond me.
Posted on Reply
#169
ARF
TheDeeGeeI check the official Nvidia reddit daily now, and there are atleast 2 reports every 24 hours with pictures of new melted adapters of various stages. How there hasn't been a recall yet is beyond me.
Bizarre.
Nvidia is calling for all partner-manufactured GeForce RTX 4090 boards affected by the melting power plug problem we’re definitely not calling ‘connectorgate’ to be gathered up and returned to HQ. According to a post on Igor’s Lab, a briefing was sent to all AIB partners this morning (27th) that the cards should be shipped back home for analysis, though it’s not clear if they’re being sent to Nvidia or the AIB manufacturer’s nerve center.
Nvidia Calls for Melted 4090 Cards to Be Returned for Analysis | Tom's Hardware (tomshardware.com)
Posted on Reply
#171
Mussels
Freshwater Moderator
TheDeeGeeI think i've yet to see a report from a FE card though, so there is that.

That would mean AIBs are at fault as well, if they stray too much from the guidelines.
look how ampere launched - we had all sorts of madness come out

Partly because nvidia gave specs that were "okay to use" that turned out false, and partly because the board makers did whatever they could to cut costs on custom PCB designs, despite charging more for them
Posted on Reply
#172
Fasola
The plot thickens: It appears there are at least 2 types of adapter, a lower quality one (Igor's) and a higher quality one (GN's). GN hasn't been able to trigger a failure with their adapters even after cutting the side cables.

Posted on Reply
#173
Ravenas
I don't recall a graphics card where my cable bend how to be a certain length or the connector would burn and my graphics card would have damage. What an absolute mess.
Posted on Reply
#174
dj-electric
I have ordered parts to assemble my own 12VHPWR cable. I have crimpers and all lab equipment to prepare and test it. Might update if people care
Posted on Reply
#175
Nater
Now I'm a Design Engineer, CAD Tech, Machinist, CAM Programmer, etc etc...but I'm no electrical engineer, yet I see a simple SIMPLE solution staring them right in the face.

Update the PCIe slots and mainboard layouts. Quit trying to fit the large square peg in the small round hole. The card is already taking up 4 PCIe slots in most designs, so have it pop into 4 rigid PCIe slots and get yourself 4x 75w of power right off the top without changing much of anything.

And I know some of you will reply "but that will make it too expensive!"

:wtf:
Posted on Reply
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