Shogo touched on a good point about Steam and EA. I am probably guilty of downloading as much as the next person but since Steam came along I have bought more games than I have time to play. There are many who can't stand Steam but for me it's a model that works and benefits both sides.

On a similar token, the music industry just need to wake up and look beyond their money grubbing hands. In the digital age, it's clear the current model isn't working and employing scare tactics and exorbitant fines isn't the answer. Or maybe they have and realized that their time and place in the industry have ceased to be relevant and they are doing all they can to hold on to it.

AnnCorePower to you. I truly believe that people who make a difference in the world don't get enough credit or money.

People who make a difference are the most underappreciated people on the planet. Who won the battle of el alamein ? montgomery ? fuck no it was the soldiers who ran across that desert murdering each other that shaped the world following one man's word who got all the glory.

wataMG42IMO both side raise some very vaild points and both mailman and farlex have articulated there points very very well! :toast:.

Articulate? Wow I never thought someone would call me that. I expected insane rantings and pointless circles guy.......or something like that. I like naked women.

can I just point out that this argument has been going on for the past few years and will go on for as long as we have "protected media."

I honestly believe the recording industry is heading the same way the american car industry was (and still is). Sales are dropping on CD's due to digital media and instead of trying to find better ways to distribute content over the internet, wether it be through a website or a program, they hang onto old ways (and can because they sue the crap out of the public to support themselves and their practices).

I'm a huge fan of the way steam distributes games, I used to pirate anything and everything I played, due to the costs and hassle of driving to buy the game (good 30-40 min due to heavy traffic), installing it only to find the protection built in is preventing me from playing the game for one reason or another and having to pay to talk to a representative who treats me like a kid in grade school. Honestly it was easier to go around the copy protection than try to activate it in some games. Steam is a simple solution that works well and allows me to play my games without "bullshit".

The only thing I could see stopping the music publishing industry from having a similar system is profits, some time spent in R&D and perhaps what consumers do with the music when it's on a portable media device as opposed to a computer. But honestly if someone had the intent of distributing music illegally, they will succeed and like copy protection in a fair amount of pc games, will only hinder the consumer's experience if it is too harshly implemented and turn people away.

Paintfacegood job! democracy that actually works for the people :)

Rule by the people ...

ascstingerSteam is a simple solution that works well and allows me to play my games without "bullshit".

The only thing I could see stopping the music publishing industry from having a similar system is profits, some time spent in R&D and perhaps what consumers do with the music when it's on a portable media device as opposed to a computer.

Not to mention instances where I previously uninstalled an old game or moved to a new system and can't remember where I placed my install CD plus the key that came with it. With Steam that isn't even an issue.

As for music distribution they've made some headway but it's going at a snails pace and going about it the wrong way. Take subscription based music model - on the surface it's exactly what I need and I don't mind paying a yearly sum for unlimited music but as the case may be, the implementation leaves alot to be desired. Not every service is available in my country and when I find one that does I run into the dreaded DRM and incompatible devices...I'm willing to pay for what I use but like you said there's so much BS to deal with and you wonder if it's worth it.

All I hope to gain out of this, is a system that protects the consumer as much as the companies. I want my fair use rights for the media I buy, and I don't want to deal with invasive and draconian DRM schemes to be able to use it. Is that too much to ask?

TheMailMan78You guys have no idea how much this pisses me off as an artist. There is no argument for this.

Why don't you concentrate on the talent side of things, and leave the worrying and other stuff to the rest of us? ;)

Wile EAll I hope to gain out of this, is a system that protects the consumer as much as the companies. I want my fair use rights for the media I buy, and I don't want to deal with invasive and draconian DRM schemes to be able to use it. Is that too much to ask?

You said draconian

SteevoYou said draconian

lol. Well, isn't that how it feels?

TheMailMan78Ok the only argument I hear in this thread is yall think the record companies make to much. Thats not an argument. I think car dealers make to much. Should I steal their cars? No of course not. Artists not only need channels for distribution but a way of producing it. Who do you think pays for the studio time? You think thats free? There are so many variables to this its mind boggling.

Most artist are for organizations like the RIIA to protect their work. Intellectual property is in fact PROPERTY and its not something that can be protected by junk yard dogs or high fences. This is why the RIIA exists. To protect investments. So you bastards keep stealing and keep using semantics to sway the argument in your favor. The fact remains if you take something for sale and do not pay for it you are in fact a THEIF.

As for these Pirates being elected I have one word for you. Bush.

Add in the overwhelmingly common scenario of where if somebody who would like to pirate your work but is unable to would not simply buy it instead but simply go without or choose an alternative product.

I always liked seeing the figures the RIAA quietly publish showing how their sales and profits skyrocket, while in the next press room they cry foul of piracy.

If your work is good, people will pay for it. Vagrant Story has the best soundtrack of any game I've ever played, and consequently, I bought it. But your average yearly turd in franchise X laid by EA Games that will be gone and forgotten in 6 weeks, no thanks.

Don't copy that floppy...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=up863eQKGUI

This is GREAT news!

/me laughs at all the RIAA-like organizations...what u gotta say now, huh? The people have spoken.

Rophimg132.imageshack.us/img132/8809/piracy.jpg

Add in the overwhelmingly common scenario of where if somebody who would like to pirate your work but is unable to would not simply buy it instead but simply go without or choose an alternative product.

I always liked seeing the figures the RIAA quietly publish showing how their sales and profits skyrocket, while in the next press room they cry foul of piracy.

If your work is good, people will pay for it. Vagrant Story has the best soundtrack of any game I've ever played, and consequently, I bought it. But your average yearly turd in franchise X laid by EA Games that will be gone and forgotten in 6 weeks, no thanks.

Thank God you posted the image. It all makes sense now. :rolleyes:

tkpenaltywow. EU politics finally dont seem so boring.
We have a nazi, and we have a pirate LOL.

Sadly we have at least 2 confirmed natzi in the EU parliment.


So one step forwad for freedom (pirates) two steps back.. or should I say 178 steps back:
24% of seats of European Parliamen are being held by extremist parties Link

While I can see your side MailMan, I don't believe piracy affects less advertised/less popular media or art like it does mainstream commercialized media and/or art. Forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over Jay-Z making only $50 million in a year instead of $100 million because of piracy.

The majority of people I know who download torrents, or any other kind of media/art from other sources, will buy the product/art/music/etc if they like it. While this is not the case 100% of the time, the actual amount of people who actually buy what they download after they use/try/see/hear it is probably quite a bit higher than you would think. The amount of money the entertainment industries, and artists themselves make, is proof enough for me that piracy isn't as big of an issue as some make it out to be.

Piracy will make art rise from it's dark age in the long run.
Mediocre so called "professional artists" will have to lose. The "undiscovered genius" type will swiftly rise on it's own without the need of corporate promotion.

Piracy helps art free itself from corporate slavery.Real artists don't/shouldn't rely on businessmen for prestige but on their own skills.

Rophimg132.imageshack.us/img132/8809/piracy.jpg

You're stealing someone else's potential earnings, hence it's theft. The 'theft' here, is not of the item being pirated.

Black HadesPiracy will make art rise from it's dark age in the long run.
Mediocre so called "professional artists" will have to lose. The "undiscovered genius" type will swiftly rise on it's own without the need of corporate promotion.

Piracy helps art free itself from corporate slavery.Real artists don't/shouldn't rely on businessmen for prestige but on their own skills.

:laugh: Oh man thats rich. I really lol'd on that one.

Ironic how the capitalist system is indirectly transitioning into socialism with DRM.

As I said earlier. When you make music, or art, why do you make it? You don't make it to make money. I find people who make art/music for money specifically just make crap. Look at 50% of the deviantart stuff!

Piracy allows us to try before we buy. As stupid as it sounds, most of the time the trial version/samples aren't enough of the product, or only display what we'd like to see but not the crap, or lack of it(cough cough EA). Its almost a scam if we buy a game because we think its good until we actually use it.




Talented artists, before going major should NOT worry about their money. AT that point you the artist shoudl be more concerned about the stuff that you are putting out. I will laugh at record labels when theres a totalitarianistic set of laws in place to stomp out piracy because at that point the consumers in general will have little to no exposure to the music, and thus we wont be inclined to buy anything. I only wanted to buy an album after I listened to it already and knew it was good. Same goes for all my relatives. It is different for those who have loads of money however.

What these anti-piracy corporations should really be pushing for is something in another field. Ways to eradicate the massive inequality in some of the nations, just raising the bar of the poor's living standards, instead of worrying about their own overinflated assets. I mean are any of the record labels anywhere near bankruptcy? They're all driving lambos and shit for only publishing what is not theirs, and paying the artists which make their money a small amount of it.

My post has nothing to do with music, but it has plenty to do with piracy.

I buy things which are worth the money. Case in point - I own every single game Bioware ever made since Baldur's Gate, even if I did download some of them prior to buying so I can play it before it hits the stores here (There's one hugeass delay in that).

On the other hand, I've been screwed over by DRM. I bought Mass Effect retail. I upgrade my systems every few months and I have three computers I game on (My Q9650, my i7 and my XPS laptop when I am on the road). I installed the game on all of them, and quickly ran out of activations. Talking to EA customer service is like swallowing razors, and it took me four days to get another activation out of them. The de-authorization tool did not exist back then, and the tool that exists now can only be run on the computer the game was installed on. The problem is that save my laptop, all my systems massively changed from that time.

So I had three options - Download the game, buy it again, buy it from Steam.

I bought the game from Steam, since I'll never buy another activation limited game on Retail - That's just asking to get robbed again, but had I downloaded the game, I would have not seen the act as morally wrong. I bought this game. Quite frankly - I don't care if they want to limit me to using it on X computers, I bought the game. If I want to install it on every one of my seven systems, I should be able to. If I lend the original copy to a friend, I should not be handicapped in any way when it gets back. If I make a backup of the DVD, I should be able to play it. The same as happens when I buy a book.

The same almost happened to me with Crysis: Warhead but I was a little wiser this time around. I have the game lying here next to me, and I haven't used it once. I have a downloaded and cracked copy of the game, so that I don't run out of activations when I really need them, if I ever do. Since I don't play multiplayer, it works for me.

But notice something - I am a paying customer who is forced to jump through hoops to use what I bought with my money. If I just pirated both games, I'd have never run into those problems and would have saved myself around 100$ and a ton of headaches (Not to mention the horrible withdrawhal symptoms from lacking Mass Effect for several days, ugh :banghead: :D ).

DRM does not work, and as long as that model is so horribly, horribly broken - I want to be able to go around it, just like I did with Crysis: Warhead.

Steam on the other hand is a model I have no problems with. I can install my games on any number of systems I want, I can play them, uninstall them, reinstall them, update them and never worry about anything more than my Internet connection (And most games start even with Steam in offline mode, so even that is a near non-issue). Hence my growing Steam game collection.

Just my .02c

I just want to add my two cents into this sh*t storm of a discussion:laugh:

If we go back 2-300 years an artists was rarely heard outside of his country, or even the city he worked in. He would play for HOURs just for a bed to sleep in and a meal in his belly. Today, in the pub/club band scene (im a musician so i know for fact, at least in Aus) a musician might play for 2hours a night and get around $150 with meal and a bed to sleep.
Music has and NEVER will be a means to support your entire life. You just dont make enough money.

In the international scene musicians work hard but they make enough to sit on their ass and write their next album and its the fans that pay them for that. they should be thanking US. Thanks to the internet I can listen to bands from Sweden and Germany and god knows where else whos albums will never hit the Australian market. They all have one more fan that they otherwise wouldn't have.

also FACT; The band Killing Heidi (Locals from where I live) for all the Fame and Popularity they had in Australia for a few years. Got nothing to show for it. the Publishing companies took ALL the money. They sold their art to them for next to nothing but some time in the spotlight.

btarunrYou're stealing someone else's potential earnings, hence it's theft. The 'theft' here, is not of the item being pirated.

That's an arse-ended way of thinking about it! Money not earned doesn't equal money lost.
Also you are assuming 1 download results in 1 loss of sales.

silkstoneThat's an arse-ended way of thinking about it! Money not earned doesn't equal money lost.
Also you are assuming 1 download results in 1 loss of sales.

Yours is arse-ended since you are not paying for the content you're supposed to pay for. Money not earned very much does equal money lost in this case. Then again, I didn't specify how much money lost, so that part of the argument is abstract to us both.

morphaalso FACT; The band Killing Heidi (Locals from where I live) for all the Fame and Popularity they had in Australia for a few years. Got nothing to show for it. the Publishing companies took ALL the money. They sold their art to them for next to nothing but some time in the spotlight.

Yup, just look at bands like Nine Inch Nails that said F-you to their publisher. They're doing better than ever now because there's no middle man imbalancing the trade. Artists, these days, really only make lots of money from concerts where the publisher can't stick their hand in the pot.

Publishers really need to shift to a digital mindset where they tweak and fine tune the music and give the finished product back to the artist. The artists pays them $x amount per song to finalize it. They can either leave with their digital copy (which they own) and release it on their own terms or give the publisher a license to mass produce it where the publisher pays $x amount per item sold to the artist. If the artists no longer publishes music, it really doesn't matter because the publisher no longer "owns" an artist/works. Until publishers shift to that kind of model, they'll continue to kick and scream until they have a heart attack and take a lot of good artists down with them.