7700X lapping, replace IHS or direct die cooling?

[joemama]

I am afraid you are mixing lapping with machining. Lapping involves removing just very thin amount of material to ensure flattless and is pretty easy to do manually.

Nah, I'm talking about lapping, it's easy to achieve a lower roughness manually, but not flatness.
For flatness, it is usualld defined through total thickness variation (TTV), which could be affected by the roughness, waviness, form and parallelism of the top bottom surfaces.
A mirror finish only guarentees roughness.

 

[AVATARAT]

Touching 90+ on stress tests/benchmarks, CO-20+500MHz boost freq, additional negative voltage offset of 0.10 volts, gaming temps are 70 or less, scores above average for performance on that hardware.
This is just where I am currently settled, about every weekend I do some tweaking for fun
S's and G's really. I just like to tinker... this is my next itch.
Kryosheet + AK500 zero dark, was using Kryonaut paste and results are the same as new paste. Kryosheet outperformed my 6 month old Kryonaut paste numbers

If you want just to drop your temps, there is a smart way.
All core clock > 5400/5500MHz + auto voltage, this will drop significantly your temps (10C+). Of course, your mobo must support this future (my mobo supports it (Asrock)).
Yes, you will lose a little single core boost, but your multi-tread will rise and your temp will be less.

 

[tpa-pr]

I took a soft route with my 7700X, I set a -25 PBO and a temp cap of 85C. In benchmarks and some games i'm still able to hit 5.4Ghz effective clock as required too. This is with a DeepCool AG400 Plus air cooler, nothing fancy. Maybe a software solution is the ticket?

 

[BoggledBeagle]

Nah, I'm talking about lapping, it's easy to achieve a lower roughness manually, but not flatness.

I already mentioned earlier that it is easy to make a sphere surface instead of a flat surface while lapping. With some experience making a (nearly) flat surface is possible and doable.

 

[AVATARAT]

I took a soft route with my 7700X, I set a -25 PBO and a temp cap of 85C. In benchmarks and some games i'm still able to hit 5.4Ghz effective clock as required too. This is with a DeepCool AG400 Plus air cooler, nothing fancy. Maybe a software solution is the ticket?

PBO uses a lot more voltage by default to be stable, you can't lower so much with CO -25 and have the same result as I describe.

 

[ChrisM255]

360 AIO can handle 300W, even more. 7700X produces max. 140W with PBO, you can cool that with a small air cooler!

Absolutely, my AK500 air cooler is enough to not allow over 90-91 on a stress test so I am not even hitting TJmax, never seen any throttling but some freq loss unless undervolted. I did replace the fan with an Arctic static pressure fan and added another for push/pull, but the second fan on this cooler only helps a couple of degrees. No-one "needs" a water cooler for a 7700x IMO at stock, but you need a decent performer to pull it off without throttling in some way or freq loss.
On my current setup I can go with stock settings to lets say userbenchmark (I know they suck...) to compare to similar hardware and mine will say above average for 7700X, top 25% or something like that. You absolutely cannot use this site to compare AMD to Intel and I would even argue that gen to gen comparison is meh. Specially the RX to RTX comparisons, I don't know where they pull half their numbers from and they spout a bunch of horrible personal opinions about AMD if you actually read what the site says about AMD hardware. A site like this needs to be as unbiased as possible, that is not the case. Especially recently.
What I am going to do to my CPU is absolutely not needed in any way, just the thrill of the chase.

I already mentioned earlier that it is easy to make a sphere surface instead of a flat surface while lapping. With some experience making a (nearly) flat surface is possible and doable.

I typically make a jig to help maintain angle while lapping and has served me well. Helps prevent tilting to one side or another. I have at times measured with a micrometer to make sure all sides are even, adjust jig accordingly.
Slow with light pressure, turtle beets the hair on this one. When checked against a known good flat edge for light bleeding I have never had an issue with this method. I imagine too much pressure while hand lapping is typically what gives people the spherical surfaces.

PBO uses a lot more voltage by default to be stable, you can't lower so much with CO -25 and have the same result as I describe.

I typically add an additional negative voltage offset to help with this but don't do too much or you will become unstable quick. I recommend per core CO if you do this, I have had better results with it. Wider stable range.

 

[Vya Domus]

360 AIO can handle 300W, even more. 7700X produces max. 140W with PBO, you can cool that with a small air cooler!

Air coolers behave differently than AIOs. With an air cooler as soon as there is a high load temperatures will rapidly increase and reach steady state, with a large enough AIO that happens much slower and the heat can be dissipated before it reaches tjmax.

 

[ChrisM255]

I took a soft route with my 7700X, I set a -25 PBO and a temp cap of 85C. In benchmarks and some games i'm still able to hit 5.4Ghz effective clock as required too. This is with a DeepCool AG400 Plus air cooler, nothing fancy. Maybe a software solution is the ticket?

I did this and was only able to achieve -20 but capped at 85C with my silicon and not a sustained 5.4, it only touched it but fell back fairly quick. Looks like you won more in your silicon lottery than I did... :-(
May be due to a better cooling solution too though

If you want just to drop your temps, there is a smart way.
All core clock > 5400/5500MHz + auto voltage, this will drop significantly your temps (10C+). Of course, your mobo must support this future (my mobo supports it (Asrock)).
Yes, you will lose a little single core boost, but your multi-tread will rise and your temp will be less.

Tinkering and experimenting for fun with cooling solutions is all I am really going to do here. Was planning to do this weekend but an emergency electrical service came up at work this weekend though so the tinkering is going to have to wait till following weekend.
Really looking for anyone that actually did/experimented with this on 7000 series to see what I should definitely avoid trying

I am afraid you are mixing lapping with machining. Lapping involves removing just very thin amount of material to ensure flattless and is pretty easy to do manually.

I thought this too until recently. I don't know if the term has changed meaning, but lots of outlets refer to height reduction as lapping
for example, JTC refered to taking 0.8mm off as lapping. I think the thermal grizzly product made for lapping is for the AM5 height reduction up to 1mm

Lapping-Tool | Ryzen 7000 | S-TG-LT-aR7000

The Ryzen 7000 Lapping-Tool was developed for grinding the heatspreaders of the AM5 processor series from AMD. The tolerances of the Ryzen 7000 Lapping-Tool allow gradual grinding of the heatspreader by 0.4 millimetres, up to a total height of 1.6 millim…

www.thermal-grizzly.com

They have them for Intel as well and is called a "CPU lapping tool" and is made specifically for height reduction of the IHS
I think there has just been a recent expansion of the terms meaning in mainstream.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

Well, TG uses a term "grinding".

Wikipedia says:

Lapping often follows other subtractive processes with more aggressive material removal as a first step, such as milling and/or grinding.

If you want to remove 2mm, use milling machine and then lap it to get a final finish.

 

[ChrisM255]

Well, TG uses a term "grinding".

Nice catch, I didn't notice that on there. I can be bad at skimming...
Technically it is grinding, my point is that the term Lapping is being used loosely in media on too many outlets which is in a social setting, changing the meaning. Not literally but in social slang terms I guess.
Kind of like the word that starts with F and has 3 letters (I'm not saying it...) has meant many things over the years and even different things in different regions.
I know there is a better example, just cant think of it off the top of my head right now...

LOL, i just noticed in the description it pulled form the sight on my post even says grinding... wow

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Well, TG uses a term "grinding".

Wikipedia says:


If you want to remove 2mm, use milling machine and then lap it to get a final finish.

This thread had gone off the deep end.

A mill is considered a lapping or grinding machine.

The same procedure can and is done by hand.

Does anyone not research first, just a tiny bit. Like 13 second read will tell you what the term lapping means.

Please. Unless you actually know something or actually have experience, please stop posting here.

 

[ChrisM255]

I might do a quick surface lap on CPU and cooler this Sunday just to see what that does. I should have enough time.
I will try my best to do before and after screenshots
Likely try Kryonaut paste for comparison and leave it with a fresh Kryosheet at the end of the day.

If I can't I will have at least some kind of results in by the end of January for lapping and maybe IHS height reduction.

 

[P4-630]

After 3 pages: OP, did you lap your CPU yet?

I have done it in the past with a E2200, iirc it improved by 2~3 degrees.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

After 3 pages: OP, did you lap your CPU yet?

For real....

 

[BoggledBeagle]

A mill is considered a lapping or grinding machine.

...

Does anyone not research first, just a tiny bit. Like 13 second read will tell you what the term lapping means.

Please. Unless you actually know something or actually have experience, please stop posting here.

Quick wikipedia quotes fot you:

Milling is a cutting process that uses a milling cutter to remove material from the surface of a work piece.

Lapping is a machining process in which two surfaces are rubbed together with an abrasive between them, by hand movement or using a machine.

Lapping often follows other subtractive processes with more aggressive material removal as a first step, such as milling and/or grinding.

YOU REMOVE THE BULK OF MATERIAL BY MILLING OR GRINDING.

THEN YOU CAN FINISH THE SURFACE BY LAPPING

Do you understand it? It is not very complicated. I made the text large for easy reading.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Quick wikipedia quotes fot you:

Milling is a cutting process that uses a milling cutter to remove material from the surface of a work piece.

Lapping is a machining process in which two surfaces are rubbed together with an abrasive between them, by hand movement or using a machine.

Lapping often follows other subtractive processes with more aggressive material removal as a first step, such as milling and/or grinding.

YOU REMOVE THE BULK OF MATERIAL BY MILLING OR GRINDING.

THEN YOU CAN FINISH THE SURFACE BY LAPPING

Do you understand it? It is not very complicated. I made the text large for easy reading.

A mill is a machine.

Invented from a process that was done by hand before the machine was invented.

And it even says by hand....

The procedure refers to using an abrasive to flatten a surface.

 

[ChrisM255]

Does anyone not research first, just a tiny bit. Like 13 second read will tell you what the term lapping means.

Please. Unless you actually know something or actually have experience, please stop posting here.

I only did about 5 seconds of research on this one personally... sorry. Not gonna lie, I was embarrassed. My point was more of the media feel when you are listening to people talk about the height reduction they just keep referring to it as a lapping process. Some will specify that it is technically grinding or whatnot once but the rest of the video it is all lapping, lapping, lapping. Starting to feel like that was just my personal impression.
But thank you honestly for saying that. I am really looking for people with experience in 7000 series that can share any of their actual experiences with this before I get started. No-one is going to persuade me to not do this, just looking for feedback, experiences and suggestions other than to nerf the chip and keep my warranty. If I wanted to nerf it, I just would've gotten the 7700. I got the X sku to be able to play around more with it.
Lets not get hung up on "technicalities" arguments that is going to derail the conversation...

 

[ShrimpBrime]

I only did about 5 seconds of research on this one personally... sorry. Not gonna lie, I was embarrassed. My point was more of the media feel when you are listening to people talk about the height reduction they just keep referring to it as a lapping process. Some will specify that it is technically grinding or whatnot once but the rest of the video it is all lapping, lapping, lapping. Starting to feel like that was just my personal impression.
But thank you honestly for saying that. I am really looking for people with experience in 7000 series that can share any of their actual experiences with this before I get started. No-one is going to persuade me to not do this, just looking for feedback, experiences and suggestions other than to nerf the chip and keep my warranty. If I wanted to nerf it, I just would've gotten the 7700. I got the X sku to be able to play around more with it.
Lets not get hung up on "technicalities" arguments that is going to derail the conversation...

That's because lapping and grinding mean the same thing.

Lapping is geared towards making a surface flat.

You can grind anything, doesn't mean the goal is to make flat, which is what lapping means.

However, using abrasives is grinding, but lapping is grinding for a reason.

It's a term that's been used since the release of AMDs IHS plate used on platform socket 754. Before this it was socket 462 which the cpus didn't come with a plate on the cpu. It was all direct die.

 

[ChrisM255]

OP seems more like a "sayer" than a "doer"...

Trying to research and see what others have done before doing, guys... I thought that is what these were for. Sharing ideas and helping others.
If you have followed any of my threads, I am a doer
This is my first attempt to reach out to a community before a project and honestly is pretty counter productive so far
Mostly people telling me not to do it, limit my stuff, save my warranty and make technical corrections that don't help advance the conversation.
I think 2-3 posts have given me what I am asking for with limited details on some of it

Just got done turning my GPU from a screaming heater into a beast of its sku and this is my next itch to tinker around. YOU should do what is mentioned above and research before posting! not a doer...

I do what most people are scared of

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Trying to research and see what others have done before doing, guys... I thought that is what these were for. Sharing ideas and helping others.
If you have followed any of my threads, I am a doer
This is my first attempt to reach out to a community before a project and honestly is pretty counter productive so far
Mostly people telling me not to do it, limit my stuff, save my warranty and make technical corrections that don't help advance the conversation.
I think 2-3 posts have given me what I am asking for with limited details on some of it

Just got done turning my GPU from a screaming heater into a beast of its sku and this is my next itch to tinker around

Yes, if you want procedure, must directly ask for it.

Gather materials needed.
Flat mirror on a flat surface
Tape wet sanding paper to the mirror.
Figure 8 motions for lapping. Do not go back and forth.
Watch for the paper to clog. You can clean wet sanding paper by simply cleaning it with water and a rag.
You do not need to use water for theblapping process, but you can if wanted. I find it just makes the process messy.
Start with a corse grit to remove a lot of material if that's the goal. Start at 200 to 400 grit wet sanding paper.
Once you've taken off the amount of material you desire, then you increase grit. 600, a few minutes, 800 a few minutes, 1000 for a few minutes, 1500 for a few minutes.
You do not need to push down. A little hand weight is enough, let the abrasive do its work.

Follow this process, you'll do just fine.
Try finding that in wiki

 

[ChrisM255]

Yes, if you want procedure, must directly ask for it.

Gather materials needed.
Flat mirror on a flat surface
Tape wet sanding paper to the mirror.
Figure 8 motions for lapping. Do not go back and forth.
Watch for the paper to clog. You can clean wet sanding paper by simply cleaning it with water and a rag.
You do not need to use water for theblapping process, but you can if wanted. I find it just makes the process messy.
Start with a corse grit to remove a lot of material if that's the goal. Start at 200 to 400 grit wet sanding paper.
Once you've taken off the amount of material you desire, then you increase grit. 600, a few minutes, 800 a few minutes, 1000 for a few minutes, 1500 for a few minutes.
You do not need to push down. A little hand weight is enough, let the abrasive do its work.

Follow this process, you'll do just fine.
Try finding that in wiki

If you read the original post I'm asking for anybody that has specifically had experience in 7000 series I've done this many times and I know the process. Wins/losses experienced in ryzen 7000, that kind of thing
But I definitely appreciate the level of detail here and I know you're just trying to help out so I don't mind these type of posts. Thank you!

 

[P4-630]

You do not need to use water for theblapping process, but you can if wanted. I find it just makes the process messy.

I did it wet, you can "polish" the surface shiny with wet and very fine sandpaper.

 

[ChrisM255]

I actually asked specifically for 7000x experience due to the offset center location of the dies once the IHS is removed. Seems to be creating contact/mounting issues

I did it wet, you can "polish" the surface shiny with wet and very fine sandpaper.

DerBauer actually talked about this and his experience is the a mirror finish actually does worse than a hi-grit finish. I have also heard this from others but still see a lot of people doing it

A hi-grit finish will give you an extra degree or two over mirrored
So they say...

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

With or without TIM? With TIM, it make sense a slightly coarse finish would help. If you are going TIMless, mirror will give better contact.

 

[P4-630]

So they say...

Start lapping, and test it yourself!

GL.