Next Gen GPU's will be even more expensive

[Hecate91]

The die sizes between a 7900XT and a 4080 Super aren't comparable, not even remotely similar because of a chiplet architecture with empty space between chiplets, and different process nodes.
As for Intel, there has to be some amount of profit on a low end sku, they just aren't greedy like Nvidia charging $300 for an 8GB card.

 

[Zazigalka]

their keynotes and presentations should be about open-source gaming, and not about "hey, look, we have RT, too".

if you want no one to cover them and buy the cards, then by all means, I agree. I mean, why would you game with RT on Windows, when you can do no RT on Linux....

 

[Bomby569]

AMD has better Linux support and a generally open source approach to gaming tech as opposed to Nvidia's in-house technologies, which makes them more likeable in my eyes. The problem is that their marketing is shit, they don't know how to build on what they have. They are looked at as a follower of Nvidia because that's the image that they build for themselves, and not because that's what they are. Their keynotes and presentations should be about open-source gaming, and not about "hey, look, we have RT, too".

what percentage of buyers care about "open source gaming"?

they should put that on the box and in the naming, "OSG 9070XT", i bet it would sell like hot cakes

 

[AusWolf]

if you want no one to cover them and buy the cards, then by all means, I agree.

Why? Because it's not something shiny that makes people piss their pants when looking at a screenshot? Is advertising tech that doesn't work as well as the Nvidia equivalent a better strategy? Looking at sales numbers, I'm not so sure.

what percentage of buyers care about "open source gaming"?

What percentage of AMD buyers care about tech that Nvidia is better at?

 

[Waldorf]

@AusWolf
my problem is with ppl applying a different buying metric to gaming/hobby of gaming, vs everything else in life.
and hobbies arent limited to gaming, enough things we can enjoy that dont cost (as much)

in the 70s a GTI was <10K, a 911 Turbo about 50K, now its 50K for the GTI and 150K for the Turbo.
most 1st world countries now consider tv's a "need" (news/education/entertainment), still doesnt mean you will be able to get anything above 75"@8K for an affordable price.
with everything costing more, why would it be different for pc parts?
e.g. should i go and say Breitling needs to lower their prices, since other brands have similar offers at less, and because its my hobby, and i cant afford it? not really.

and again, i have no problem complaining about pricing/tiers offered, but not, if its just because i cant afford it (e.g. xx80Ti/90 chip), or because it would require me to save up, before i can buy it.

and yes, its VW design:
The Veyron's designer was Hartmut Warkuß, exterior being designed by Jozef Kabaň of Volkswagen, and much of the engineering was under the guidance of chief technical officer Wolfgang Schreiber.

 

[Bomby569]

What percentage of AMD buyers care about tech that Nvidia is better at?

Not sure AMD wants to sell only to AMD buyers, they clearly said that was not the plan because it wasn't going great, look at sales numbers for an answer

 

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
my problem is with ppl applying a different buying metric to gaming/hobby of gaming, vs everything else in life.
and hobbies arent limited to gaming, enough things we can enjoy that dont cost (as much)

in the 70s a GTI was <10K, a 911 Turbo about 50K, now its 50K for the GTI and 150K for the Turbo.
with everything costing more, why would it be different for pc parts?
e.g. should i go and say Breitling needs to lower their prices, since other brands have similar offers at less, and because its my hobby, and i cant afford it? not really.

and again, i have no problem complaining about pricing, but not, if its just because i cant afford it (e.g. xx80Ti/90 chip), or because it would require me to save up, before i can buy it.

and yes, its VW design:
The Veyron's designer was Hartmut Warkuß, exterior being designed by Jozef Kabaň of Volkswagen, and much of the engineering was under the guidance of chief technical officer Wolfgang Schreiber.

Comparing to the 70s is moot. A new VW Golf GTI cost £33k in 2016. The 2025 Golf GTI will cost £40k. That's a 21% increase. The GTX 1080 cost $599 in 2016. The 4080 came out at $1199 which is a 100% increase. Please tell me why the price increase on GPUs has to be five-fold compared to the increase on cars.

(Edited for correct numbers)

And again, this is a tech forum, we're talking about tech here. I'm not gonna start crying about real estate prices (which are equally mad), but I won't because it's irrelevant here.

Not sure AMD wants to sell only to AMD buyers, they clearly said that was not the plan because it wasn't going great, look at sales numbers for an answer

It looks more like AMD is trying to sell to Nvidia buyers which they fail at because Nvidia's RT and DLSS is more advanced. The argument here was that they should establish themselves as leaders of something of their own rather than a follower of Nvidia, which I agree with.

 

[Waldorf]

@AusWolf
just because we are on a tech forum, doesnt change how we buy things, or what we consider acceptable, price wise.

like everything else in life: if you cant find a product you like, for a price you are willing to pay, you dont buy it, no matter WHY is costs more.
so why is it different with pc hw?
look at any local shop in your area. do they all sell their things at the lowest price, so that everyone can afford it?

again, not defending brands/companies, (but we live in a greedy capitalist world, where) products are sold for the highest price (some) are willing to pay.
that won't change soon, nor will i expect an exception for pc hw, just so we can "afford" it and/or a certain chip/model.

 

[Onasi]

Comparing to the 70s is moot. A new VW Golf GTI cost £33k in 2016. The 2025 Golf GTI will cost £40k. That's a 21% increase. The GTX 1080 cost $599 in 2016. The 4080 came out at $1199 which is a 100% increase. Please tell me why the price increase on GPUs has to be five-fold compared to the increase on cars.

I’ll actually play devils advocate on this one and will put forward an argument that isn’t just based on the poor status of the market - the higher relative increase makes some sense. Cars are growing more expensive partially because they rely more and more on computers and controllers to do, well, anything really. That accords for not an insignificant part of that increase. But since their starting price is higher by default in percentile view it seems like less of an increase. But GPUs ARE chips. That’s all they are, a PCB with a bleeding edge chip. So the higher the cost of that chip - the more prominent the price hike.

I am not saying it’s good or cool or kosher, but it is what it is. Of course, there IS room for theoretical price drops - the margins on high-end SKUs are quite bonkers - but Jensen isn’t really lying when he says that chip development and manufacturing skyrocketed in cost. It’s a convenient excuse for him, granted, but not altogether a false one.

 

[AusWolf]

@AusWolf
just because we are on a tech forum, doesnt change how we buy things, or what we consider acceptable, price wise.

But it does change what we talk about here. The term "off topic" doesn't exist in a pub, but it does here.

like everything else in life: if you cant find a product you like, for a price you are willing to pay, you dont buy it, no matter WHY is costs more.
so why is it different with pc hw?
look at any local shop in your area. do they all sell their things at the lowest price, so that everyone can afford it?

again, not defending brands/companies, (but we live in a greedy capitalist world, where) products are sold for the highest price (some) are willing to pay.
that won't change soon, nor will i expect an exception for pc hw, just so we can "afford" it and/or a certain chip/model.

I don't disagree, but we can have an opinion and talk about it, right?

Personally, my price limit for a GPU has increased from £300 to £500 in recent years, but enough is enough. I'm certainly not gonna spend thousands on a toy in a world where I'll never be able to afford owning a home.

I’ll actually play devils advocate on this one and will put forward an argument that isn’t just based on the poor status of the market - the higher relative increase makes some sense. Cars are growing more expensive partially because they rely more and more on computers and controllers to do, well, anything really. That accords for not an insignificant part of that increase. But since their starting price is higher by default in percentile view it seems like less of an increase. But GPUs ARE chips. That’s all they are, a PCB with a bleeding edge chip. So the higher the cost of that chip - the more prominent the price hike.

I am not saying it’s good or cool or kosher, but it is what it is. Of course, there IS room for theoretical price drops - the margins on high-end SKUs are quite bonkers - but Jensen isn’t really lying when he says that chip development and manufacturing skyrocketed in cost. It’s a convenient excuse for him, granted, but not altogether a false one.

That's a fair argument. IT tech is getting so expensive because there's exponentially more money pumped into it. We could ask whether it's necessary or not, but as long as gamers aren't the main market, it doesn't matter.

 

[Bomby569]

It looks more like AMD is trying to sell to Nvidia buyers which they fail at because Nvidia's RT and DLSS is more advanced. The argument here was that they should establish themselves as leaders of something of their own rather than a follower of Nvidia, which I agree with.

i'm sure there are a few people that buy nvidia no matter what, but most people will buy amd if priced correctly, not sure there's a thing like nvidia buyers.

 

[Bronan]

It is the smartest thing AMD can do the higher segment is not where the big sales are
Sure high profits but much less sales and every card AMD releases uses less power than the stupid power sucking nvidia blech products.
but i am sure loads of ....... persons start to cry and yell i do not care about at all
AMD is doing the smart thing and i find more and more people are sick of paying high power costs for a little more graphics power
Sure the ones rich enough will not care but most of the normal people have better goals to spend their money on like nice vacations or more fun things than a stupid graphics card.

 

[AusWolf]

i'm sure there are a few people that buy nvidia no matter what, but most people will buy amd if priced correctly, not sure there's a thing like nvidia buyers.

There is. I know several people personally who would never ever buy an AMD card even if it was free. I don't know anyone who says the same from the other side.

 

[freeagent]

Its ok, the world doesnt revolve around you, some people like it, some dont.

Yeah, it does.

In my case, I simply said as many others had, that we dont see the big deal of RT to justify the performance hit.

Good for you.

Again, as said before, many prefer native.

I do too, but really, it doesn't matter like you think it does.

And, again in my case, I hate ANY tech that exists to keep locked into one vendor.

Yeah.. sure you do.

The white knights are the one that always come out all offended and rowdy.

Like you and your buddies?

Your choice and its ok if you dont want to.

Thanks.

Yet here you are, all bothered because little ol'me dont want to give Ngreedia any money.

You care a hell of a lot more than I do. What you do in your life has no bearing on me. I really don't give a shit what you run.

Oh thats, right, leave feelings out it?

Having a hard time I see. I don't have feelings, so this is comical.

 

[Waldorf]

the problem is that ppl forget binning.
nothing prevents amd to offer a "big" gpu with same perf as Nv (outside of proprietary stuff etc), and bin leser perf chips to be sold in lower tier cards.
its not like they would throw out anything unable to perf (e.g. losing money).

my problem is that i want stuff like cuda, and until recently hated the amd "control panel", and power/temps are relevant as well (to a degree).
until i have those, i wont switch, even if i get a little more perf/better price on amd.
same way im not on intel for the past 10y, as i didnt see the value, rather save money on cpu side, and spend it on the gpu.

@AusWolf
sure.
for me, "affordability" isnt connected to the price of a product, but to how much (disposable) income we have, and part why i hate reviews that incorporate price into their rating,
as its up to the buyer.
ppl dont buy expensive stuff because its the better deal/value (say bentley vs different brand for 50 or 25% of the cost), but because they like it and have the money for it.
e.g. would you worry about 1000E rent/payments month for a house, if you made 10K net a month? probably not.

since 7000 series, i always had a xx80 (or equivalent), and while not likely im getting more than a xx70 card this time,
if i still had my previous job/income, i probably would have been fine with whatever the 5080 would cost (incl WB).
not because i like Nvs pricing/tiers, but im done "wasting" time on tweaking/tuning/optimizing a lower tier card (for small gains) that i could buy with my funds,
and getting something a lot faster, and enjoy having more time for actual use/gaming, even if this means saving up to pay for the leather fee.

 

[freeagent]

my problem is that i want stuff like cuda

And people forget that, you can do more with a GPU than just play video games.

 

[3valatzy]

There's also the fact that AMD has bigger dies for similar performance. Eg 7900XT 530 mm vs 4080S 380 mm.

Similar to huge B580 die compared to 4060 etc. Much higher cost of manufacturing to get similar result.

The die sizes between a 7900XT and a 4080 Super aren't comparable, not even remotely similar because of a chiplet architecture with empty space between chiplets, and different process nodes.
As for Intel, there has to be some amount of profit on a low end sku, they just aren't greedy like Nvidia charging $300 for an 8GB card.

Navi 31 has 57.7 billion transistors, AD103 has 45.9 billion transistors.

It is the smartest thing AMD can do the higher segment is not where the big sales are
Sure high profits but much less sales and every card AMD releases uses less power than the stupid power sucking nvidia blech products.
but i am sure loads of ....... persons start to cry and yell i do not care about at all
AMD is doing the smart thing and i find more and more people are sick of paying high power costs for a little more graphics power
Sure the ones rich enough will not care but most of the normal people have better goals to spend their money on like nice vacations or more fun things than a stupid graphics card.

The big Navi 41 was actually cancelled, because it failed to deliver the expected performance progress.
It wasn't about anything even remotely smart by AMD, it was a consequence of their lack of technological know-how.

AMD has canceled not only the top Navi 41 GPU but also Navi 42. It's the mooted cancellation of Navi 42 that's most worrying. Navi 41, just like Navi 31 and Navi 21 before it, was slated to be the big boy of the RDNA 4 series. It's the most exciting GPU of the family, but also the least relevant

AMD has canceled some GPUs, but don't panic! | Maximum PC - Computer Mobile - Read this story on Magzter.com

Read this exciting story from Maximum PC October 2023. SPEND ENOUGH TIME in this game and you get a feel for rumors that are very likely true. And I'm getting the sense that the latest ones suggesting AMD has ditched the high-end variants of its next-gen RDNA 4 graphics family are on the money...

www.magzter.com

 

[Zazigalka]

@AusWolf
just because we are on a tech forum, doesnt change how we buy things, or what we consider acceptable, price wise.

like everything else in life: if you cant find a product you like, for a price you are willing to pay, you dont buy it, no matter WHY is costs more.
so why is it different with pc hw?
look at any local shop in your area. do they all sell their things at the lowest price, so that everyone can afford it?

again, not defending brands/companies, (but we live in a greedy capitalist world, where) products are sold for the highest price (some) are willing to pay.
that won't change soon, nor will i expect an exception for pc hw, just so we can "afford" it and/or a certain chip/model.

yup. it's usually what amount of money I can throw away, and how fun can it get for me. rules of buying groceries don't apply. I wanna see max graphics.

 

[Bomby569]

There is. I know several people personally who would never ever buy an AMD card even if it was free. I don't know anyone who says the same from the other side.

AMD burned a lot of bridges, it isn't fun to have a pc that gets a random black screen and you lose all your work.

 

[3valatzy]

AMD burned a lot of bridges, it isn't fun to have a pc that gets a random black screen and you lose all your work.

Random freezing is exactly what the Nvidia driver does.

4 reasons why I switched from Nvidia to AMD

For years, my Nvidia graphics card has served me faithfully, but I am turning my back on Team Green - at least for now.

www.pcworld.com

 

[freeagent]

Random freezing is exactly what the Nvidia driver does.

4 reasons why I switched from Nvidia to AMD

For years, my Nvidia graphics card has served me faithfully, but I am turning my back on Team Green - at least for now.

www.pcworld.com

Unstable systems do that. My system is stable, and does not do that, ever.

 

[Bomby569]

Unstable systems do that. My system is stable, and does not do that, ever.

i was talking general. But it did happened to me, after so many not working fixes, i just replaced the card for a nvidia one, nothing else changed, no more problem. That's it. Unstable my ass,

 

[tfdsaf]

I love how people justify insane and retarded price increases by talking about unrelated products or still bashing AMD for driver issues that have been fixed for over 15 years now!

If anything its Nvidia who's had the more driver issues, I had so many issues when I had a GTX 1060 6GB. Random driver restarts, videos would crash or would become a green screen, occasional freezes just when scrolling through videos, etc...

It took them a full year to fix those problems and there were probably hundreds of reports on their forums.

I also remember I had so many problems with my GTX 770. Constant crashes in games, high power draw when on desktop and just using a browser even at energy saving, issues with my second monitor, etc... Again it took them probably a year to fix all of those problems.

This notion that AMD somehow has bad driver, yet Nvidia has never had any problems is the biggest scam, biggest lie, biggest fake shit I've ever read about any product or company.

Thing is Nvidia is abusing you, they are R***** you, the price increases are NOT justified, they are making 60% return on all of their desktop graphics, they can clearly afford to sell them at least 40% cheaper, probably 50% cheaper if they needed to be competitive.

 

[freeagent]

i was talking general. But it did happened to me, after so many not working fixes, i just replaced the card for a nvidia one, nothing else changed, no more problem. That's it. Unstable my ass,

I didn't quote you, so no idea what you are talking about. Glad to see you are having a good day.

While everyone was having problems its been smooth sailing for me the entire time, generation over generation.

That is why I keep buying them. So until I have problems, I will just keep going with what I know.

Same with all the other users. Buy what you want, because really, no one cares what you have.

 

[Krit]

I will laugh hard if

RTX 5090 launches at 1999$ or more, RTX 5080 1199$ or more, RTX 5070 Ti 899$ or more, RTX 5070 649$ or more, RTX 5060 Ti 499$ or more, RTX 5060 329$ or more.

There's no explanation for such prices for a gaming video cards. It's a completely different matter if AMD also overprices their video cards then it will be complete disaster.