Optimus Foundation CPU Block - AMD

[Zach_01]

@Optimus Water Cooling, I wonder if this slight curvature of block surface is related with the mount system, not using a backplate.
We already know the bow surface is helping with AMD’s IHS specificity, but is it also the mount system without backplate in that direction?

 

[INSTG8R]

@Optimus Water Cooling, I wonder if this slight curvature of block surface is related with the mount system, not using a backplate.
We already know the bow surface is helping with AMD’s IHS specificity, but is it also the mount system without backplate in that direction?

It’s pretty normal Aqua Computer supplies 2 different O Rings one for more bow

 

[ThrashZone]

Heh, fair point. Thought I was seeing things when I first realised that the bow wasn't equal.
Still feel that should be included though in your advertising on the page, as I don't recall any other block having that feature?

Hi,
Foundations Intel or amd have the same pressure points that create the bow it's more like a barrel not a ball because it only has two pressure points not four
If it had four two would be crushing the cooling fins



Hi,
I guess i should add the opposing pressure points to alter the barrel bow would be the actual cpu shoulders
That's why tightening can be tricky
Too much pressure and you'll flatten the cold plate entirely creating a hollow area in the center of the chip because the center of the cold plate is now not making contact with the chip.

 

[Optimus Water Cooling]

Hey Thrash, good thoughts, but the block actually works differently

TIGHTENING: Tightening is actually easy -- just go as tight as possible.
CONTACT AREA: you'll have better contact the tighter it goes, because there is conforming between the IHS and the cold plate. If you do a thermal paste test, you'll see this is the case.
FINS: won't ever get crushed, they can't because they're on the same surface plane as the whole cold plate, not raised like on a skived cold plate
PRESSURE POINTS: There aren't just two pressure points, It makes contact across the entire center plateau. Once it makes contact with the IHS, there is flex

Don't want anyone to get confused here

 

[lorry]

Hey Thrash, good thoughts, but the block actually works differently

TIGHTENING: Tightening is actually easy -- just go as tight as possible.
CONTACT AREA: you'll have better contact the tighter it goes, because there is conforming between the IHS and the cold plate. If you do a thermal paste test, you'll see this is the case.
FINS: won't ever get crushed, they can't because they're on the same surface plane as the whole cold plate, not raised like on a skived cold plate
PRESSURE POINTS: There aren't just two pressure points, It makes contact across the entire center plateau. Once it makes contact with the IHS, there is flex

Don't want anyone to get confused here

I still do not get why you do not include a back plate though, I must be missing something for sure.
I understand what you say about the stock plate and it protruding past the mounting holes, but why not then something similar to the Noctua backplate which is flat, so would add strength and spread the pressure over a far greater area?

Picture here, ignore their mounting brackets though, I mean Just their backing plate

http://imgur.com/nTCCuOY

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
Unfortunately bow is useless if it's flatted by the top by over tightening.
Proven everytime I see o-rings with fin markings

 

[Optimus Water Cooling]

FINS: You'll notice there are also fin marks on the foundation o-ring as well. If we did a full size gasket, there would be fin marks across the whole thing. Everything is not as rigid as one imagines.

BOW: So the bow is real and works well From the simple fact that both blocks have world's best performance. If the bow was useless, then the performance would be terrible, but it's not There is more mechanically going on, it's not as simple as it may seem from the beginning.

BACKPLATE: We're always about making future improvements. As VSG showed, our non-backplate mounting has the best performance in the world right now. This conversation is similar to the whole spring vs no spring conversation, which now VSG has proven that springs aren't as good. So performance and reliability are our first priorities. Any risk of not using a backplate is wildly overblown with zero (as far as I can tell) real world examples of any adverse negatives. Backplates like AMD's are part of their OG aircooler setup. And just like springs, just because everyone still uses springs doesn't mean it's the best solution, we're all about doing the right thing not following the industry trends because that's just what everyone has done

Also, we're a tiny company and only been around 6 mos, so knocking out a custom backplate is easier said than done The people waiting on Threadripper and GPUs will kill me lol

 

[lorry]

Also, we're a tiny company and only been around 6 mos, so knocking out a custom backplate is easier said than done The people waiting on Threadripper and GPUs will kill me lol

Fair point, I just wondered as I saw the Noctua backplate and wondered if it was worth getting?

 

[Optimus Water Cooling]

Fair point, I just wondered as I saw the Noctua backplate and wondered if it was worth getting?

You can definitely get it, but not a big diff either way I imagine. VSG also tested the backplate with springs design (in the Sig review) and showed it performed worse. We'll revisit the backplate in the future, really do some deep testing to see if any performance can be pulled from it, but right now, it's hard to argue with the ~4-6c improvement many are seeing on Ryzen

 

[lorry]

You can definitely get it, but not a big diff either way I imagine. VSG also tested the backplate with springs design (in the Sig review) and showed it performed worse. We'll revisit the backplate in the future, really do some deep testing to see if any performance can be pulled from it, but right now, it's hard to argue with the ~4-6c improvement many are seeing on Ryzen

I was thinking more from peace of mind than anything else really. Wasn't expecting to see any performance increase at all, all about spreading the pressure over a larger area than anything else.

 

[Optimus Water Cooling]

I was thinking more from peace of mind than anything else really. Wasn't expecting to see any performance increase at all, all about spreading the pressure over a larger area than anything else.

It makes logical sense. But our blocks are counter intuitive, we basically reevaluated every part of liquid cooling. There's just so much legacy tech and design, it's crazy. Like springs, molex (instead of sata) pumps, etc.

 

[heky]

So where can we see the temperature gains on Ryzen 2nd gen? Really interested to see the 4-6° improvement you speak of...Also, a waterblock mounting system without springs is nothing new...not bashing, just saying, its been done many times before.

 

[Optimus Water Cooling]

So where can we see the temperature gains on Ryzen 2nd gen? Really interested to see the 4-6° improvement you speak of...Also, a waterblock mounting system without springs is nothing new...not bashing, just saying, its been done many times before.

Here are a bunch of the user reviews with links: https://optimuspc.com/products/foundation-cpu-block-amd

We'll be having professional reviews soon. But those users sure didn't pull any punches, lol, they thrashed the blocks hard.

For mounting, you're correct, of course! It's more about where the industry is now and the expectation that everything should have springs and backplates because that's how 99% of blocks and coolers ship today.

 

[heky]

It's more about where the industry is now and the expectation that everything should have springs and backplates because that's how 99% of blocks and coolers ship today.

Sure, but i think there is a good reason for that. For example, how do you compensate for the difference in PCB thicknesses of different motherboards (4 layers is not the same as 8) and for de-lided cpus? (Or is my thinking completely wrong)

 

[Optimus Water Cooling]

Sure, but i think there is a good reason for that. For example, how do you compensate for the difference in PCB thicknesses of different motherboards (4 layers is not the same as 8) and for de-lided cpus? (Or is my thinking completely wrong)

Good points. WIth ours there aren't hard stops on the mounting, meaning pressure can be applied to any IHS/die height. The mounting systems with stops have the issues you're describing and it's nearly impossible to account for everything. And springs then apply their own force, though almost always the springs get compressed all the way, thus becoming hard annoying thumb nuts.
Really, springs are useful for basic applications. But when going for precision mounting, the way springs can buckle or slip bend is just not ideal.

 

[JesseL]

I'd say a little perspective would be helpful because the AMD mounting discussion is really blown way out of proportion

First, the Foundation AMD block with the included mounting hardware proved to be the best block in the world, and not by a little (mileage will vary, of course).

Also, while the mounting isn't as user friendly as it theoretically could be, it is, in my opinion, far easier than mounting systems with tons of little parts and washers and springs that are just a pain to make work.

Plus, our mounting just performs better than the classic spring/backplate design

VSG might be able to speak to this eventually.

So we're making constant improvements as we go along and get feedback. I'd say we're way faster than most anyone else for responding and addressing concerns. But here, there is absolutely zero reason not to use the included mounting system in its stock configuration. This was discussed at crazy lengths over at OCN in that massive thread around 1600 posts now. Switching to anything else (like another brands' mounting) would be a step back for performance, though might be easier to assemble.

At the same time, this is one of those things where we're a tiny company compared to everyone else (or to the world, lol). There is just one engineer/machinist mastermind who develops everything, and that will be the way it is going forward. We don't have an army of people to work on this stuff. So if we revise mounting hardware, that takes away from releasing the Threadripper and GPU blocks.

Again, this is an issue with zero performance repercussions and is purely about ease of assembly.

So we're trying hard to keep up with changes, new products and actual manufacturing. We'd like to get even faster, but overall I think we're doing pretty good

Also, here are the instructions included with blocks:

View attachment 144474

@Optimus Water Cooling I just got the Fouundation AMD block and am wondering what's the ETA on the improved mounting system? I'm getting 4 6-32 socket head cap screws so I can use the original backing plate. I'll put 1/4 inch of heat shrink on the screws to act as indexing spacers in the slots on the water block. The heat shrink will hold washers captive too. I don' think I'll need the improved version.

 

[lorry]

@Optimus Water Cooling I just got the Fouundation AMD block and am wondering what's the ETA on the improved mounting system? I'm getting 4 6-32 socket head cap screws so I can use the original backing plate. I'll put 1/4 inch of heat shrink on the screws to act as indexing spacers in the slots on the water block. The heat shrink will hold washers captive too. I don' think I'll need the improved version.

Noctua look like they do a AM4 backplate for their fan that would fit

http://imgur.com/nTCCuOY

 

[JesseL]

Test fit!

I should have said this is an MSI X570 Godlike and the backing plate has 6-32 threads in it. Anyway, I put SS 6-32 x 1" socket head cap screws in through the original back plate from the back, and on the front used 6-32 nickel plated brass acorn nuts with SS washers.

Very simple, fits tight in the waterblock slots without any heat shrink . Socket head cap screws can be put through the water block from the front if preferred with original backplate.

I can tighten the acorn nuts with a 1/4 drive socket and it would be about the same torque as the knurled nuts that came with the waterblock.

I'm happy!

The M-4 threads on the original nuts at the same torque as the 6-32 would have more clamping force because the M-4 threads are higher threads/length. M-4 is like shifting down a gear from 6-32. Not sure if that will be an issue or not. I'd think not.

 

[lorry]

Test fit!

I should have said this is an MSI X570 Godlike and the backing plate has 6-32 threads in it. Anyway, I put SS 6-32 x 1" socket head cap screws in through the original back plate from the back, and on the front used 6-32 nickel plated brass acorn nuts with SS washers.

Very simple, fits tight in the waterblock slots without any heat shrink . Socket head cap screws can be put through the water block from the front if preferred with original backplate.

I can tighten the acorn nuts with a 1/4 drive socket and it would be about the same torque as the knurled nuts that came with the waterblock.

I'm happy!

The M-4 threads on the original nuts at the same torque as the 6-32 would have more clamping force because the M-4 threads are higher threads/length. M-4 is like shifting down a gear from 6-32. Not sure if that will be an issue or not. I'd think not.

I'm wondering if you live in the USA, as you quote your thread sizes not in metric and I wonder if the threading is only an MSI thing or universal?
I believe that @Optimus Water Cooling stated that the AM4 block was M3.5 not M4 ?
For giggles, I ordered a couple of AM4 stock backplates and both of those use a M3.5 thread. Interestingly they came with different standoff lengths, one being a good 2mm longer than the other but I will try a set of SS cap screws and acorn nuts.

 

[JesseL]

Yes I'm in the USA. The MSI backplate threads are 6-32.

I think the Optimus double ended fastener is M4 on the block side, and M3 on the motherboard side. It measures 3.95 mm x 2.91mm.

If the back plate is threaded, and the socket head cap screws bottom out in the acorn nuts, the screws will simply back out of the threads in the back plate. In this case the socket head cap screw is acting like a piece of all-thread.

 

[lorry]

Yes I'm in the USA. The MSI backplate threads are 6-32.

I think the Optimus double ended fastener is M4 on the block side, and M3 on the motherboard side. It measures 3.95 mm x 2.91mm.

If the back plate is threaded, and the socket head cap screws bottom out in the acorn nuts, the screws will simply back out of the threads in the back plate. In this case the socket head cap screw is acting like a piece of all-thread.

My backplate is M3.5 but I am in the UK, so possibly the MB manufacturers use 6-32 for US boards and metric for the rest of the world?

Ideally though you do not want the acorn (or dome nuts are they are mostly known as over here) to bottom out, because if the socket head screws back out then there surely will be enough play for the potential for them to loosen back the other way and loose mounting pressure.

Might have been better to use nylon locking nuts rather than dome/acorn? I know they wouldn't look as nice but it's thermal performance that is the first consideration, not looks surely?

 

[JesseL]

I'll use loctite on the threads.

 

[lorry]

Yes I am considering doing the same. isn't there a heat version of Loctite for that?

 

[JesseL]

I've used a lot of loctite blue on engines and never had that amount of heat bother it. There might be a specialty version I'm not sure.

The best setup might be the screw head on the waterblock side and nylon insert locknuts on the screws where they stick out of the backing plate threads. You wouldn't tighten the locknuts until the waterblock is clamped down, then locknuts would hold everything tight.

 

[lorry]

I've used a lot of loctite blue on engines and never had that amount of heat bother it. There might be a specialty version I'm not sure.

The best setup might be the screw head on the waterblock side and nylon insert locknuts on the screws where they stick out of the backing plate threads. You wouldn't tighten the locknuts until the waterblock is clamped down, then locknuts would hold everything tight.

That Might be the best way to go, IF there was enough space on the reverse side, those MB standoffs aren't all That high though, 6mm or 1/4 inch being the standard height (M3 x 6+6).
Although I know that you can get different height sized standoffs which would alleviate that problem, might be worth investing in them as a just in case?

In the UK this would be the sort of thing you might need to do, they do from 4mm up to 30mm standoffs

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Just had a thought! They would be quite handy to allow cable routing as well !