Ferrum MasterWhat are those numbers? If only two 7970 are sold and one returned then RR rate becomes 50%, give me a break really.

If you read the introduction to the articles, you'll find that that the criteria for inclusion is a sample size of a minimum 500 units for a vendor model, and 100 units for an individual AIB/AIC SKU. Further note that for any AIB/AIC SKU where the sample size is under 200 units, the entry in the list is italicised.

Ferrum MasterThere are not known manufacturing errors for both camps, and any responsibility should go to AIB partners anyway.

Why not the card manufacturer? All AMD's reference cards are made by PC Partner (Sapphire's parent company)- who also produce all the cards for Sapphire, Zotac, Inno3D, ELSA, Leadtek, Manli, PNY's reference cards, Zogis, and Point of View. How does the AIB adding a sticker absolve the manufacturer of blame?

Customer dissatisfaction (noise, cooling, insufficient clock speed binning etc) : ODM/AIB/AIC issue or OEM issue if reference design
Manufacturing defect : Board manufacturer (ODM) if individual SKU's, or OEM if the reference design is at fault.

Sasquimy XFX 290x DC doesn't get over 78c, my 290x reference under H20 doesn't break 40c.

Reference cooler? Yea, that's another story, lol

Well, my reference designed Sapphire still runs under 70c after 4 hours of BF4. Idle has been 36c. No special cooling or anything. I never understood what this heat factor is that everyone continues to talk about. I couldn't be happier with this card.

perryra1968Well, my reference designed Sapphire still runs under 70c after 4 hours of BF4. Idle has been 36c. No special cooling or anything. I never understood what this heat factor is that everyone continues to talk about. I couldn't be happier with this card.

thats all that matters.

I have a VaporX, no need to try overclocking it either

perryra1968Well, my reference designed Sapphire still runs under 70c after 4 hours of BF4. Idle has been 36c. No special cooling or anything. I never understood what this heat factor is that everyone continues to talk about. I couldn't be happier with this card.

A reference 290X that doesn't exceed 70C under extended full 3D load! I'm guessing you're either deaf,or this is your house.

HumanSmokeA reference 290X that doesn't exceed 70C under extended full 3D load!

I'm guessing that it *isn't* full 3D load. Throttled by the CPU or frame limiting, or something...

rruffI'm guessing that it *isn't* full 3D load. Throttled by the CPU or frame limiting, or something...

That'd be my guess too. A 290X won't heat up and throttle if you're playing 1080p@60Hz because that isn't pushing the card.

Edit: According to his specs he has a 1920x1200 60Hz monitor. Close enough to 1080p. And it definitely won't push a 290X to its limits. But you start running it at 1440p with MSAAx8 and peg the GPU usage to 100% in games, and I guarantee it'll throttle.

HumanSmokeA reference 290X that doesn't exceed 70C under extended full 3D load! I'm guessing you're either deaf,or this is your house.

Deaf might be a possibility. Apparently when W1z was testing the reference 290X, his neighbors actually complained about the noise! His neighbors!!!

To be fair the case might have a play into that. When I had my reference 7970 on a Cosmos Pure I barely heard it but it sounded like a jet engine on a Source 210.

I don't know how soundproof his Antec 902 is though.

newtekie1LOL

Odd, I have never had that issue with a reference design. That is even when running VSR resolutions up to 3200 x ??? I cannot recall because I am not in front of my computer. Oh well, enjoy spreading your FUD, I will enjoy playing my quiet, fast computer. :D

I read which is why I responded as I did. I have a reference R9290X and do not have any throttling issues and it is quiet. Of course, perhaps I k ow what I am doing and that is why I do not have the issue he described in his mocking post?

Oh well, I have no issue with folks using what they want. However, FUD can be stupid.

HumanSmokeIf you read the introduction to the articles, you'll find that that the criteria for inclusion is a sample size of a minimum 500 units for a vendor model, and 100 units for an individual AIB/AIC SKU. Further note that for any AIB/AIC SKU where the sample size is under 200 units, the entry in the list is italicised.

Italicized under 200? It still give quite crippled number on 100% scale really even if it is a 500 and one is 1000.

HumanSmokeSapphire, Zotac, Inno3D, ELSA, Leadtek, Manli, PNY's reference cards, Zogis, and Point of View

From those at this side of the pond only Sapphires are here... ELSA is Nippon banzai only now as far I know. Asus got the largest sale number, then MSI and Gigabyte, XFX's also are not available on our side, without ebay, so a tough math really. So each of them should be analyzed with more details, I agree. The problem in between the chair and the keyboard and a real hardware fault, although... it also does not give a good info too... for example driver issues... like 344.11 had bsods on certain motherboards, and thus RMA rate artificially increases. Some Cats have them a lot always, it just a part of a daily life :D.

HumanSmokeA reference 290X that doesn't exceed 70C under extended full 3D load! I'm guessing you're either deaf,or this is your house.

That thing can't hold anything less that those 95C even when running dual monitor setup desktop, not mentioning even 3D(throttle) mode. :D

Ferrum MasterItalicized under 200? It still give quite crippled number on 100% scale really even if it is a 500 and one is 1000.

Technically the disparity isn't that great. The minimum number of returns to make the list is 100 (which would equate to ~2000 cards of that individual model sold on average over 6 months). The return percentage is calculated by the model number sold - not overall sales of all cards, so the percentages are reasonably valid IMO.

Ferrum MasterFrom those at this side of the pond only Sapphires are here... ELSA is Nippon banzai only now as far I know. Asus got the largest sale number, then MSI and Gigabyte, XFX's also are not available on our side, without ebay, so a tough math really.

Well, the return rates are from a French hardware outlet. Point of View is a European brand, so it shouldn't be a surprise that they are represented across Europe(as are many brands). I'm not a big frequenter of French computer stores, but this one stocks a number of Zotacs's, and a whole range of PNY workstation cards(unsurprisingly since PNY is based in France).

Ferrum MasterSo each of them should be analyzed with more details, I agree. The problem in between the chair and the keyboard and a real hardware fault, although... it also does not give a good info too... for example driver issues... like 344.11 had bsods on certain motherboards, and thus RMA rate artificially increases. Some Cats have them a lot always, it just a part of a daily life :D.

Yes, for sure there are many different reasons for returns that don't necessarily reflect the workmanship or design of the card - no doubt there are even cases of buyers remorse, and maybe people hoping to return the card but keep any bundled games - not sure how that works out since some etailers will bill the user for a used product key. As has been noted by others, there are returns likely because of hard use in alt-currency mining.

It isn't any kind of absolute proof, but it does represent a reasonable indicator (also, IMO).

perryra1968Well, my reference designed Sapphire still runs under 70c after 4 hours of BF4. Idle has been 36c. No special cooling or anything. I never understood what this heat factor is that everyone continues to talk about. I couldn't be happier with this card.

LOL, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

ManofGodOdd, I have never had that issue with a reference design. That is even when running VSR resolutions up to 3200 x ??? I cannot recall because I am not in front of my computer. Oh well, enjoy spreading your FUD, I will enjoy playing my quiet, fast computer. :D

Yeah right. The reference 290X isn't quiet, pretty much everyone know that is fact. And W1z even had throttling issues on his open testbench. So yeah, I'm the one spreading FUD...:rolleyes:

newtekie1Yeah right. The reference 290X isn't quiet, pretty much everyone know that is fact. And W1z even had throttling issues on his open testbench. So yeah, I'm the one spreading FUD...:rolleyes:

Yes, you are, thank you for agreeing. :D

From W1zzards review of the reference R9 290X


"Idle noise levels are decent, almost quiet. You can barely hear the card when it is installed in a case.

The picture changes completely once you fire up a gaming session. AMD's fan will ramp up very quickly to cope with skyrocketing temperatures. Enable "Quiet" BIOS, which limits fan speed to a maximum of 2000 RPM, and the card will run into its 94°C temperature limit after only a few minutes, which results in lower clocks and performance (to stay below 94°C). The "Quiet" BIOS will not deaden down the card, but its noise levels can be tolerated.

Using the "Uber" BIOS results in RPM limitations falling away and the fan spinning up as fast as it has to in order for the card to stay below its temperature target (94°C by default). You will hear nothing but the card's fan noise, which makes hearing enemy footsteps or similar sound effects impossible unless you play with headphones.

Overall, I am disappointed by the acoustic experience the R9 290X provides. AMD should have invested some time into developing a good cooler, like NVIDIA did with the GTX Titan."

www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_290X/26.html

64KFrom W1zzards review of the reference R9 290X
"Idle noise levels are decent, almost quiet. You can barely hear the card when it is installed in a case.
The picture changes completely once you fire up a gaming session. AMD's fan will ramp up very quickly to cope with skyrocketing temperatures. Enable "Quiet" BIOS, which limits fan speed to a maximum of 2000 RPM, and the card will run into its 94°C temperature limit after only a few minutes, which results in lower clocks and performance (to stay below 94°C). The "Quiet" BIOS will not deaden down the card, but its noise levels can be tolerated.
Using the "Uber" BIOS results in RPM limitations falling away and the fan spinning up as fast as it has to in order for the card to stay below its temperature target (94°C by default). You will hear nothing but the card's fan noise, which makes hearing enemy footsteps or similar sound effects impossible unless you play with headphones.
Overall, I am disappointed by the acoustic experience the R9 290X provides. AMD should have invested some time into developing a good cooler, like NVIDIA did with the GTX Titan."
www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_290X/26.html

That's nice but I have not had those experiences. However, if you have it on an open bench with you ear less than a foot from it, of course it will seem noisy to you. However, if you build it into a quiet system, you will not hear it and it does not throttle. (Mine does not throttle and I do not hear it well I am gaming.) Therefore, either his experience is based on that open bench operation or I am lying. I know I am not lying but hey, if you do not believe me, that is fine, I will still continue to use my quiet, non throttling R9 290X and you use what you want to.
Remember, I built my system with a case that is designed for quietness which makes a difference.

newtekie1Yeah right. The reference 290X isn't quiet, pretty much everyone know that is fact. And W1z even had throttling issues on his open testbench. So yeah, I'm the one spreading FUD...:rolleyes:

64KFrom W1zzards review of the reference R9 290X


"Idle noise levels are decent, almost quiet. You can barely hear the card when it is installed in a case.

The picture changes completely once you fire up a gaming session. AMD's fan will ramp up very quickly to cope with skyrocketing temperatures. Enable "Quiet" BIOS, which limits fan speed to a maximum of 2000 RPM, and the card will run into its 94°C temperature limit after only a few minutes, which results in lower clocks and performance (to stay below 94°C). The "Quiet" BIOS will not deaden down the card, but its noise levels can be tolerated.

Using the "Uber" BIOS results in RPM limitations falling away and the fan spinning up as fast as it has to in order for the card to stay below its temperature target (94°C by default). You will hear nothing but the card's fan noise, which makes hearing enemy footsteps or similar sound effects impossible unless you play with headphones.

Overall, I am disappointed by the acoustic experience the R9 290X provides. AMD should have invested some time into developing a good cooler, like NVIDIA did with the GTX Titan."

www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_290X/26.html

I own 3 R9 290X cards that have the reference cooler (Or had). They are not the loudest cards I have ever owned nor were they intolerable under uber settings while testing (I never actually gamed on them with the reference cooler much, I did a couple passes of heaven and some furmark to heat them up). The cooler was enough to manage the cards without any throttling Except when two of them were side by side in my test rig that is in an Antec Lanboy Air which the top one would drop to about ~900 under extended benching unless I routed the two side panel fans with fresh air towards them. Inside my Corsair Obsidian 800D for testing they were not bad and actually quieter then a few cards I have owned in the past and I managed to keep them below 90 leaving the fan on auto "uber". Bumping the fan speed up 5% more dropped the temps down to ~83 and while the cards were noticeable during benching they were not the worst nor were even something I would consider to the point of being something I could not deal with just 1 or maybe 2 cards. Though I almost always go liquid cooling and had chosen to no matter what mostly because I like to have more overclocking headroom and I had 3 cards. Though to be fair my 800D is a pretty hefty thick case compared to my past cases.

Y'all have to realize open air test benches tend to be a lot louder and showcase a cards noise a lot more than cases even when they are like the Lanboy which is pretty much open air. While open air testing benches may give it a little more access to cold air for reduced temps, a good fan blowing some air from an intake will help keep temps down in a case and depending on the case and how thick it is will alleviate noise pretty easily which is how most people achieve decent noise and temps as I know many people who have 290's/290X's with stock coolers and are not bothered by them. The cooler was nothing special by any means however it was not horrendous nor was it unbearable in a normal gaming rig as long as you were not intentionally trying to starve it from air.

If y'all want to speak about really unbearable cards that literally never were quiet we can speak about my HD 6990's and my GTX 295's (Both of the 295's were the Dual PCB variants). Took a lot of work to make those a bit tolerable on their air coolers but both ended in quad liquid configurations.

To finish this off why is this now the central focus of the discussion? Aftermarket coolers are more available now than the stock to begin with anyways so why is this even a discussion at this point? Even if we still want to make a point about stock cooling AMD apparently heard everyone's cry for blood on stock cooling and is working on an AIO for their next generation so I guess then we will find out then what will happen with stock coolers.

GhostRyderI own 3 R9 290X cards that have the reference cooler (Or had). They are not the loudest cards I have ever owned nor were they intolerable under uber settings while testing (I never actually gamed on them with the reference cooler much, I did a couple passives of heaven and some furmark to heat them up). The cooler was enough to manage the cards without any throttling Except when two of them were side by side in my test rig that is in an Antec Lanboy Air which the top one would drop to about ~900 under extended benching unless I routed the two side panel fans with fresh air towards them. Inside my Corsair Obsidian 800D for testing they were not bad and actually quieter then a few cards I have owned in the past and I managed to keep them below 90 leaving the fan on auto "uber". Bumping the fan speed up 5% more dropped the temps down to 83 and while the cards were noticeable during benching they were not the worst nor were even something I would consider to the point of being something I could not deal with just 1 or maybe 2 cards. Though I almost always go liquid cooling and had chosen to no matter what mostly because I like to have more overclocking headroom and I had 3 cards. Though to be fair my 800D is a pretty hefty thick case compared to my past cases.

Y'all have to realize open air test benches tend to be a lot louder and showcase a cards noise a lot more than cases even when they are like the Lanboy which is pretty much open air. While open air testing benches may give it a little more access to cold air for reduced temps, a good fan blowing some air from an intake will help keep temps down in a case and depending on the case and how thick it is will alleviate noise pretty easily which is how most people achieve decent noise and temps as I know many people who have 290's/290X's with stock coolers and are not bothered by them. The cooler was nothing special by any means however it was not horrendous nor was it unbearable in a normal gaming rig as long as you were not intentionally trying to starve it from air.

If y'all want to speak about really unbearable cards that literally never were quiet we can speak about my HD 6990's and my GTX 295's (Both of the 295's were the Dual PCB variants). Took a lot of work to make those a bit tolerable on their air coolers but both ended in quad liquid configurations.

To finish this off why is this now the central focus of the discussion? Aftermarket coolers are more available now than the stock to begin with anyways so why is this even a discussion at this point? Even if we still want to make a point about stock cooling AMD apparently heard everyone's cry for blood on stock cooling and is working on an AIO for their next generation so I guess then we will find out then what will happen with stock coolers.

Yeah complaining about a issue which is a none issue is dumb to say the least, yeah nv fans having a go at AMD when really they should be having ago at each other about the current 970 issue or none issue.

I don't think the reference R9 290X is relevant anymore but someone accused another person of spreading FUD which he wasn't. Both Nvidia and AMD have had noisy reference coolers in the past. The GTX 480 comes to mind.

ManofGodThat's nice but I have not had those experiences. However, if you have it on an open bench with you ear less than a foot from it, of course it will seem noisy to you. However, if you build it into a quiet system, you will not hear it and it does not throttle. (Mine does not throttle and I do not hear it well I am gaming.) Therefore, either his experience is based on that open bench operation or I am lying. I know I am not lying but hey, if you do not believe me, that is fine, I will still continue to use my quiet, non throttling R9 290X and you use what you want to.
Remember, I built my system with a case that is designed for quietness which makes a difference.

I'd believe him more than I do some random unknown user on a forum.

Also from his review of the 290X:

Even at 100%, it could barely keep the card from overheating and was noisier than any cooler I've ever experienced. My neighbors actually complained, asking why I used power tools that late at night.

You can put all the sound proofing you want in the case, if the card is loud enough his neighbor could hear it, open bench or not, the card is insanely loud!

And furthermore, an open bench generally means much cooler temps, which generally means much lower fan speed and much less noise produced.

newtekie1I'd believe him more than I do some random unknown user on a forum.

Also from his review of the 290X:



You can put all the sound proofing you want in the case, if the card is loud enough his neighbor could hear it, open bench or not, the card is insanely loud!

And furthermore, an open bench generally means much cooler temps, which generally means much lower fan speed and much less noise produced.

That's nice. :) Yep, a computer right up against the wall in an apartment would definitely carry sound. However, inside a case, they would probably not have heard it. Also, you most certainly will not get better temps in an open air bench simply because there is no airflow occurring across the computer components.

ManofGodThat's nice. :) Yep, a computer right up against the wall in an apartment would definitely carry sound. However, inside a case, they would probably not have heard it. Also, you most certainly will not get better temps in an open air bench simply because there is no airflow occurring across the computer components.

If you don't think a GPU runs cooler on an open bench than it does in a case you have no idea what you're talking about.

MSI R9 290X Gaming for $280 after rebate on Newegg.

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127773&cm_re=r9_290x-_-14-127-773-_-Product

64KMSI R9 290X Gaming for $280 after rebate on Newegg.

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127773&cm_re=r9_290x-_-14-127-773-_-Product

Great deals! I picked up a second 290X lightning for crossfire.

Cybrnook2002Great deals! I picked up a second 290X lightning for crossfire.

Oh you lucky devil, I wish I had either waited on the Lightning's or gone with the Sapphire VaporX 8gb variants for my rig!