Thursday, March 2nd 2017

AMD's Ryzen Debut: Onwards to the HEDT Market or The Stumbling Hype Train

I should break down the bad news first: we here at TechPowerUp won't be able to provide you with a timely, straight-from-the-oven Ryzen review. Like some other publications, our Ryzen review sample failed to arrive on time. And trust us - we did will it to do so as much as we could, risking a Stranger-Things-esque nosebleed. Alas, to no avail.

The good news is that while we won't be able to offer you our own review of AMD and Jim Kellers' latest high-performance x86 brainchild, we will still strive to bring you meaningful coverage on it. This article aims to make an overall aggregation on review consensus, benchmarks and capabilities of the newest AMD CPU. Trying to add something, we'll also try and evaluate whether AMD learned - or didn't learn - something from its Bulldozer launch fiasco, in a pure marketing perspective. This will justify the editorialized nature of this article, but only after we dive straight to the numbers. Without further ado, follow on to the numbers.
Multimedia, Encoding, Scientific
Reviews show consensus in that Ryzen is a powerhouse of a processor when it comes to multimedia and encoding workloads, mostly crushing Intel's competition - even in comparisons between chips with an identical number of cores. We've taken results from AnandTech, Tom's Hardware, Techspot, and Ars Technica, so as to be able to show you what different publications achieved with their Ryzen samples.
The results really do speak from themselves: AMD's Ryzen are beastly workstation CPUs, pulverizing any competition that Intel has to offer purely in price/performance ratio - and yes, what you see up there is a $499, 95W Ryzen 7 1800X offering more than double the price/performance ratio of Intel's $1089, 140 W i7 6900K. What this represents is AMD's best-case scenario of optimization and performance, and here you can see where all the hype landed: AMD's ZEN architecture posting amazing single-threaded scores in Cinebench against all Intel processors that are even remotely clocked at the same levels. AMD seemingly has the best architecture for these kinds of workloads. Office, scientific, multimedia and encoding workloads seem to be the best fit for AMD's Ryzen, with reviewers far and wide praising the performance and power consumption in these scenarios. AMD truly delivered on the hype train, at least on this side of the equation.

While their chip may not be the fastest in every single benchmark, once you take into account some measure of pricing/performance considerations, Intel's solutions fall flat. The Ryzen 7 1800X absolutely trounces - and I mean, trounces - Intel's i7-6900K and i7-6950X in any performance/watt scenarios, which has typically been a hard playground for AMD. AMD's Ryzen is nothing short of a miracle for AMD in performance/watt terms, and is a culmination of the hype train AMD so thoroughly rode. AMD's Ryzen debut challenges even Kaby Lake in the per-core/power equation, something most of us never dreamed of seeing before. This, backed by AMD's almost revolutionary jump in IPC and single-thread performance, really is a chip to end all others, such as it stands.

Another point to consider is that AMD's Ryzen platform does all of this with measly dual-channel memory, and still goes on to beat Intel's HEDT designs which feature quad-channel memory. This really does go on to show how Intel's approach to the market and its processor and platform design has been clouded in smoke and mirrors, with no real performance advantages to be derived from them.

Gaming
Gaming, however, is another story. If you're looking for the best performer, bar none, for gaming, and have no other use for your PC's beating heart, the Core i7-7700K still remains your best performance bet, due to its inherently strong architecture and freak core-clocks. While AMD doesn't in any way steal the gaming crown from Intel, they did a damn good job at getting back on the gamer's radar. Ryzen is, above all, a competent performer, and a far cry from AMD's defunct Bulldozer and derivatives.
Overall, AMD's solutions are slower than their Intel counterparts in pure FPS terms. Sometimes, the actual difference, while favoring Intel's CPUs, is negligible in pure fluidity terms; in others, the difference is markedly in Intel's favor. However, we can be looking at some bugs and needed optimizations on Ryzen's microcode and software updates for gaming and applications. AMD is fast to claim that it's working with software developers to patch and improve Ryzen support, claiming that its architecture is different enough to warrant some performance outliers. If one looks towards gaming at higher resolutions and with all eye-candy turned up to 11, however, like most of us like to play, suddenly the differences between chips seem to be minimal. Furthermore, AMD has recognized that its gaming performance needs improving, and says it expects "higher performance to occur throughout Q1 and Q2" as it works with developers and engine-makers to get Ryzen up to snuff. Oxide Games' Brad Wardell, for one, mentioned that Ashes of the Singularity currently isn't optimized for Ryzen, and promised future updates would increase performance.

Other things seem to point to some underlying issues: some games show better performance with AMD's SMT disabled. AMD also says that Window's power profiles may adversely affect performance, recommending the SO's High Performance Profile. Also, some games show higher performance on Ryzen with their DX12 code-paths (Hitman), while others show lower performance with it (Rise of the Tomb Raider.) AMD also suggest disabling the HPET (High Precision Event Timer), either in the BIOS or operating system, to gain a 5-8% advantage. AMD has also reportedly informed technology partners about the need to improve microcode on Ryzen in regards to memory performance, which could be negatively affecting performance. AMD has apparently ut all of its available microcode optimizations in time for launch on the CPU cores side of the equation, somewhat leaving memory throughput, performance and latency a little on the green side. This could very well be part of the reason why the Ryzen processors don't fare so well under gaming environments.

Review consensus: AMD's Ryzen chips are promising, but are mostly - and at least for now - superseded by Intel's quad-core i7-7700K (as are most processors in Intel's line-up, for that matter), in pure gaming terms. If gaming is your primary concern, the best performing one is still the i7-7700K. This is surely disappointing from a hype-train perspective. And even if one can call AMD's Ryzen processors disappointing in gaming terms, one can also surely call Intel's chips disappointing in multimedia and encoding tasks after seeing Ryzen's debut. It's a shame, considering all the fuss about low-level APIs, DirectX 12, and all the uttered advantages of the PS4 and XBOX One multi-core CPU approaches that some more improvements still haven't been done in regards to multi-threading capability and core scalability in gaming. A last note goes to AMD's improvement over its defunct Bulldozer architecture: the improvements are such that it starts looking ridiculous.

One other thing some reviewers touched upon was gaming fluidity. Whereas Intel's i7-7700K may often post the best results in pure FPS terms, some reviewers pointed towards a prevalence of dropped frames on Intel's processor - slight hiccups in gaming that mar the otherwise stellar experience. Apparently, AMD's Ryzen 7 processors feature no such hiccups, beating Intel's i7-7700K in that regard. It is a case, it seems, of subjective experience carrying something unseen by FPS counters - to a certain degree.

Overclocking
Overclocking on Ryzen 7's chips seems to top out at 4.1 GHz (from its stock 3.6 GHz), with Techspot's Steven Walton achieving that clockspeed with a 1800X, with voltage on auto, which saw the motherboard boosting it to around 1.35v when under load. The 1700X chip, however, only managed to make 3.95GHz (from its stock 3.4 GHz). Other reviewers seemed to hit the same walls, at least on air-cooling. This seems to point to a degree of binning in the chip's allocation to either 1800X or 1700X, as would be expected, and seems to point towards a 500 MHz overclocking ceiling .

Paul Alcorn over at Tom's Hardware managed to achieve a Prime95-stable 4 GHz clock rate at 1.425V using Asus' Crosshair V Hero (with load-line calibration set to Auto), with the highest temperature being at 82°C during the stress test.

A slight note to AMD's Ryzen Master software, which the company debuted alongside its Ryzen processors, which allows you to tune a number of variables, such as the CPU's ratio multiplier, voltage, and memory speeds, from inside the operating system.
The bottom line
AMD arguably did everything right in the build-up to its Ryzen launch, the company's premier new CPU architecture that's touted to finally make it a serious contender to Intel's domination of the high-performance x86 architecture. With an under-performing and seriously outgunned architecture design on its Bulldozer line of processors - which married brains and brawn in all the wrong places - AMD found itself on a downhill battle for market share. Coupled with an over-promising, over-reaching marketing campaign, the consensus from the enthusiast community was a deserved one for AMD: the company had blatantly lied with regards to its CPUs prowess and capabilities. Lofty performance claims were the bullet-ridden corpses of AMD's dreams, made to cover a single fact: Bulldozer wasn't good enough for its surrounding environment.

A multitude of variables contributed to this particular equation: the cost in time and resources to develop with a multi-threaded workload in mind; the fact that the vast majority of consumers still carried either dual-core or quad-core systems; and Intel's own stance on the processor market, leveraging its indubitably better CPU architecture towards a steady stream of quantifiable yet unremarkable improvements over the years... Whilst keeping core-count increases away from the mainstream market through wallet-murdering pricing. Coupled with a slower than expected transition to GPU-leveraged computing tasks meant AMD's Bulldozer was ill-suited for the workloads that actually existed, much to the chagrin of many customers: that the 4-module, 8-thread 3.6GHz FX-8150 (Zambezi) generally (yet not always) led the 3.3GHz 6-core, 6-thread Phenom II X6 1100T (Thuban) K10 - but generally fell flat, performance-wise, of the 3.3GHz 4-core, 4-thread Core i5-2500 (Sandy Bridge). Lofty performance goals were cried from terraces, but when plied with scrutiny... Failed to keep in balance.

AMD's vision for Bulldozer hinged on the belief for fastly-developing multi-threaded workloads and the precipitous offload of floating point workloads to GPUs. This belief stemmed from AMD's much vaunted, then downplayed, Fusion strategy: the integration of CPU cores and GPU cores into accelerated processing units (APUs) so that mathematical tasks can use the GPU cores. Bulldozer was supposed to usher in a multi-threaded, GPU compute accelerated world. Thus, the problem with Bulldozer stemmed partly from an excessive confidence in the computing and software ecosystems. But it also has to be said that AMD maybe sacrificed too much, too soon, in regards to its generally strong K10 architecture in the pursuit of higher parallelization. The software of those days benefited from strong single-threaded performance. And until now, not much has changed (as Bulldozer's iterations can attest), and most likely won't change. Intel's decade-long approach - to have fewer, wider cores, and extract higher parallelism through the usage of Hyper-Threading - is now AMD's own as well.

Cue the Ryzen launch, and it would almost seem to be mirroring AMD's Bulldozer claims: lofty 40% improvement over the previous architecture claims were met with lukewarm enthusiasm and mild distrust from general consumers, enthusiasts and tech industry experts alike. That a company worth many times less than Intel, with a fraction of it's R&D budget, and which bled money for years, tearing itself apart with spin-offs, sales and lease-back of their own infrastructures could manage to achieve that kind of a performance uptick was a hard pill to swallow. And even so -that would hardly make it competitive with Intel's products. Follow the trickle of leaks and performance hints grew to instill confidence and enthusiasm in the x86 landscape as few times before it.

Ryzen is a return to form by AMD: a simultaneous return to the fold of the slowly-advancing ecosystem, with strong single-thread performance (right up within Intel's range), amazing multi-thread performance, and a level playing field with Intel through the use of SMT; and a look ahead at the future, with the company firmly planting its roots on a higher core-count approach without sacrificing single-threaded performance. It's one of those rare cases of having your cake and eating it too: AMD's Ryzen debut is a serious shakedown of the high-performance x86 market, having prompted various responses from Intel even before the chips were in consumers' hands. With Ryzen being what it is, and costing what it does, AMD will be stoking the furnaces at Intel for some much-delayed innovation and advancements - even if simply in core-count terms. AMD is by no means a saint, but in this case, this is most likely a turning point in the entire x86 hardware and software ecosystem - prompting a race for the pursuit of no holds-barred, increasingly-higher performance and core counts. That AMD's Ryzen is a tad disappointing in gaming terms has a measure of truth - though those differences seem to fade in high-settings, full-blown graphical presentations. But that AMD's Ryzen is a market-bending force in the multimedia, encoding and scientific workloads is a fact unto itself. And if you throw price-performance considerations into the mix, AMD's Ryzen is close to the second coming of the high-performance x86 market. It's not perfect. But it's definitely great.

AMD's toils resulted in Ryzen. A new horizon in the high-performance computing segment. And now, the ball is firmly in Intel's court, and I for one am eagerly expecting the blue giant's move.

Late edit: A last note goes to the fact that AMD's stock fell by 5.3% during the first two hours of Ryzen's launch. However, the trend has already reversed. As always, when a given product fails to hit all of the impossible marks set upon it by a hype train, Wall Street knee-jerks. However, I would say that the overturning that has already happened is here to stay, and will continue climbing to somewhere closer to AMD's pre-Ryzen-launch levels. Ryzen is a great chip, and has the potential to completely turn things around in the workstation and server market if its execution goes as planned, and even its gaming performance is subject to some measure of improvement in the coming months. AMD managed to deliver an incredible architecture from a very tight spot. Everyone will be able to see that, in time. But now, we're all still reeling from some measure of broken dreams and impossible expectations.
Sources: Techspot, Tom's Hardware, AnandTech, ArsTechnica
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160 Comments on AMD's Ryzen Debut: Onwards to the HEDT Market or The Stumbling Hype Train

#26
R0H1T
jaggerwildYour a review site and you failed to get your sample? but its OK linking to TOMS HARDWARE?

I must say all the hype and fake scores, sure feels like bulldozer all over again. With a CPU that can only go up to 4.2 on air, and only dual channel memory, no support for SLI(expected), hype is all it was..........
Yup, I guess everyone wanted a 5Ghz OC monster with eight channel memory & 60x pcie 4.0 lanes, while we are at it why doesn't AMD pay us to use Ryzen :rolleyes:
Posted on Reply
#27
Vellinious
R-T-BThat was W1zzard messing with Raevenlord I think.



It HAS crashed. To not crash, it had to meet every expectation of the hype train. That was impossible. This is why hype trains are bad.
I don't know of anyone with half a brain in their head, that expected single core performance to match up with the consumer grade i7s. To compete in single core performance with other workstation CPUs? Absolutely, and they do exactly that.

Again...PROFOUND STUPIDITY....
Posted on Reply
#28
xkm1948
TPU got burned on FB comments. The title on FB was really, hmm, inappropriate.
Posted on Reply
#29
phanbuey
I am not so sure it crashed... The gaming was never the focus of the hype train... all they ever said was "it can game comparable to intel at high rez" -- which it can, and which is why all of the benchmarks were at 4K anyways.

I even got flamed in a thread for suggesting that this isn't a gaming chip (which it really isnt).

I mean 1080P gaming is all over the place but with a bit of OC and memory lovin' you wouldnt be able to tell the difference...

Anything that uses 16 threads and you would DEFINITELY be able to tell the difference. This whole architecture is a huge win.
Posted on Reply
#30
ZoneDymo
"If you're looking for the best performer, bar none, for gaming, and have no other use for your PC's beating heart, the Core i7-7700K still remains your best performance bet"

Yep and this is why I think this line of processors will be really good for livestreamers.
They will be able to stream and play at the same time with pretty much no issues if all is well, this is also why I am personally interested in one.
Posted on Reply
#31
phanbuey
ZoneDymo"If you're looking for the best performer, bar none, for gaming, and have no other use for your PC's beating heart, the Core i7-7700K still remains your best performance bet"

Yep and this is why I think this line of processors will be really good for livestreamers.
The will be able to stream and play at the same time with pretty much no issues if all is well, this is also why I am personally interested in one.
I mean I have a 6700K at 4.66 and i dont even stream - but when windows decides that it's update time i can DEFINITELY tell as I start dropping frames. Windows waits to do random background crap until im in mid game, trying to hit a headshot.

Or steam with its "yay lets add some more overlays why not"....

If you play AAA titles chances are you have steam, origin, ubicrap and rockstar clients running in the back - god help you if you have razer gear because its another client that runs.

Between all the background crap my systray looks like some software baazar.
Posted on Reply
#32
coolernoob
"oh nooo... a 499$ CPU did not smoked a 1000$ CPU in games, AMD lied to us, the train is crashed"... there is several things wrong with mindset like that:

1) if you bought 1000$ CPU for games, or gaming benchmarks - please spare your opinion because you do not know shyt nor about games, nor about CPUs;
2) assuming that for whatever reason you did bought a 1000$ CPU and want to game now - please include a budget in your system - if you wasted 500$ for CPU - substract that for other components and then compare (if there is no budget constrains - buy a 1700$ chip with 3 titans and spare your opinion once again - because it is irrelevant even for top 1% users);
3) if you need CPU for gaming - buy a i5 K and pump your money in GPU - seriously that stands true since beginning of i5's - nothing changed here - a 600$ GPU + i5 will smoke any overclocked i7 with same budget GPU (that means 400$ or less for GPU, but again if your budget is unlimited take option from my point above and be happy with it);
Posted on Reply
#33
Ebo
I think so far that Ryzen has blown my mind away, even the hype-train hould out. AMD has done a fantastic job with the ZEN core.

I invested in I7-5820K just about 1½ year ago, and my CPU is blown out of the water, thats development(not that I like it:(), but thats how things change.

The money are where they have allways been, in the server market, now finally AMD has a CPU that can compete and go beyond anything that Intel has to offer.


Sometimes even the underdog lay a golden egg:peace:.
Posted on Reply
#34
TheLaughingMan
So the short version: Its a new platform and new architecture and there are plenty of bugs and weirdness to go around. Multi-threaded workloads are amazing, gaming is so-so but significantly better than AMD FX anything.

Gamers should either buy Intel high clock speed chips or wait for platform maturity.

Content creators and streamers should consider this a real option, but remember where you can offload work to the GPU.

AMD is back but needs a little more time in the gym to up its weight class.
Posted on Reply
#35
the54thvoid
Super Intoxicated Moderator
Man, get a fucking author in. The real title should have been:

AMD's Ryzen debut signals a workstation powerhouse but the hype train stopped one station short


"Despite AMD's blisteringly successful vault into the high end of multi core tasking, the gaming prowess of it's Ryzen chip may have fallen short of it's hype train destination. That however is not the fault of AMD, nor of it's new baby chip but indeed of the slabbering masses with hyper unreal expectations. The Ryzen hype train may have come in a little bit behind the Intel inter7 7700k but what Ryzen did do was come in at all 8 platforms at once. All aboard!"
Posted on Reply
#36
R0H1T
the54thvoidMan, get a fucking author in. The real title should have been:

AMD's Ryzen debut signals a workstation powerhouse but the hype train stopped one station short


"Despite AMD's blisteringly successful vault into the high end of multi core tasking, the gaming prowess of it's Ryzen chip may have fallen short of it's hype train destination. That however is not the fault of AMD, nor of it's new baby chip but indeed of the slabbering masses with hyper unreal expectations. The Ryzen hype train may have come in a little bit behind the Intel inter7 7700k but what Ryzen did do was come in at all 8 platforms at once. All aboard!"
Void for president (of the United States?) :toast:
Posted on Reply
#37
etayorius
Eroticus








FB about Ryzen.




What happened with TPU .... ?
It´s obvious, no need to ask. Reason #1 why i stopped frecuenting this site.
Posted on Reply
#38
phanbuey
"
One thing I did notice is that all the games I have looked at so far -- which is considerably more than the four shown here -- were smooth on the Ryzen processors. GTA 5 for example plays really well on the Core i7-7700K, but every now and then a small stutter can be noticed, while the 1800X runs as smooth as silk, sans stuttering from what I observed.

I found a similar situation when testing Battlefield 1. Performance was smooth with the Ryzen processors while every now and then the quad-core 7700K had a small hiccup. These were rare but it was something I didn't notice when using the 1800X and 1700X. But as smooth as the experience was, it doesn't change the fact that gamers running a high refresh rate monitor may be better served by a higher clocked Core i7-6700K or 7700K."

^^^ This... is so true... i experience this every day.

The intell z170/270 platforms hitch, and then continue bombing along at 200FPS; I would gladly trade avg fps for a hitch free performance.


www.techspot.com/review/1345-amd-ryzen-7-1800x-1700x/page7.html
Posted on Reply
#39
the54thvoid
Super Intoxicated Moderator
R0H1TVoid for president (of the United States?) :toast:
Well Trump and I are both half Scottish by blood. :p
Posted on Reply
#40
YautjaLord
Well that escalated quickly? lol jk

It sure is not like a good old Athlon64/GeForce 6800 GT days back in 2004/2005 for now, does it? Marks 12 years (in July 2017) of me using their stuff (mobos & CPUs) though. Still eager to see this thing tested with 2 1080s/480s or even 1080 Tis/Vegas. In 4k. In DOOM 4/2016 + Blender running at the same time. One can dream, right? :) Cheers.
Posted on Reply
#41
XiGMAKiD
It's definitely a solid start from AMD with all of it's cons

The hype train always crashed, because with hype train comes unrealistic expectation
Posted on Reply
#42
deu
chaosmassiveblame on low CPU clocks, even flagship 1800X only managed to reach 4.1G, meanwhile 7700k 4.2 out of the box
Just so you know: it doesnt make sense to compare 1:1 clock. Like saying: you have 2 nuts and i have one banana and therefore 2 nuts wins!

As people have explained: its is easier to reach higher clocks on a 4 core than an 8 core; therefore wait for ryzen 4 cores if you want to battle 7700K in clock
Posted on Reply
#43
xkm1948
the54thvoidMan, get a fucking author in. The real title should have been:

AMD's Ryzen debut signals a workstation powerhouse but the hype train stopped one station short


"Despite AMD's blisteringly successful vault into the high end of multi core tasking, the gaming prowess of it's Ryzen chip may have fallen short of it's hype train destination. That however is not the fault of AMD, nor of it's new baby chip but indeed of the slabbering masses with hyper unreal expectations. The Ryzen hype train may have come in a little bit behind the Intel inter7 7700k but what Ryzen did do was come in at all 8 platforms at once. All aboard!"
TPU need to hire this guy instead. This is like 100X better than the crap put out and dubbed "editorial".




OR did TPU editors got some special emails from Intel? The plot thickens....
Posted on Reply
#44
alucasa
I bet a lot of kittens passed away today.
Posted on Reply
#45
Raevenlord
News Editor
the54thvoidMan, get a fucking author in. The real title should have been:

AMD's Ryzen debut signals a workstation powerhouse but the hype train stopped one station short


"Despite AMD's blisteringly successful vault into the high end of multi core tasking, the gaming prowess of it's Ryzen chip may have fallen short of it's hype train destination. That however is not the fault of AMD, nor of it's new baby chip but indeed of the slabbering masses with hyper unreal expectations. The Ryzen hype train may have come in a little bit behind the Intel inter7 7700k but what Ryzen did do was come in at all 8 platforms at once. All aboard!"
Good title, but it wouldn't fit the available characters ;)
Posted on Reply
#46
Air
I think it will be interesting to see how a 4c/4t mobile ryzen processor would stack up against a intel 2c/4t U processor for games.
Posted on Reply
#47
TheLaughingMan
Well, this is looking great for their server lineup. The main issues are clock speed and memory controller and that should be AMD's focus right now for Ryzen+.

I wonder what would happen if you disabled one of the CCX's and ran just 4 cores and 8 threads, could you get the clock speed above 4.2 GHz and would it make any difference in gaming?
Posted on Reply
#48
Vellinious
TheLaughingManWell, this is looking great for their server lineup. The main issues are clock speed and memory controller and that should be AMD's focus right now for Ryzen+.

I wonder what would happen if you disabled one of the CCX's and ran just 4 cores and 8 threads, could you get the clock speed above 4.2 GHz and would it make any difference in gaming?
This is what I'm wondering about the 4 core / 8 thread CPUs. Will the reduced heat allow for higher clock speeds? We shall see.....

I already have a workstation CPU, and won't be buying the 8 core beasty, but I'll be looking hard at the 4 core Ryzens when they release.
Posted on Reply
#49
proxuser
I just wonder how much Intel pay to you guys ?
Posted on Reply
#50
phanbuey
VelliniousThis is what I'm wondering about the 4 core / 8 thread CPUs. Will the reduced heat allow for higher clock speeds? We shall see.....

I already have a workstation CPU, and won't be buying the 8 core beasty, but I'll be looking hard at the 4 core Ryzens when they release.
I don't think those are going to perform that well...

Pure speculation here = but it doesn't seem like power/temps are the limiting factor on the core speed right now. In fact they could have packed another set of cores onto the ryzen for a 12 ct that would match the Intel 8c power wise...
Posted on Reply
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