Friday, October 19th 2018
Intel Core i9-9900K De-lidded, Soldered TIM Outperformed by Liquid Metal
We kept seeing hints regarding Intel's 9000-series processors running hot, including from their own board partners. As it turned out, the actual results are a mixed bag with some running very hot and most others ending up being power-limited more so than temperature-limited. Our own review sample showed overall better load temperatures relative to the predecessor 8000-series processors thanks to the soldered TIM (sTIM) used here, to give you some context. But that did not stop overclocker extraordinaire Roman "Der8auer" Hartung from de-lidding the processor to see why they were not generally better as expected.
As it turns out, there are a few things involved here. For one, replacing sTIM with Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut (Der8auer has a financial interest in the company, but he does disclose it publicly) alone improves p95 average load temperatures across all eight cores by ~9 °C. This is to be expected given that the liquid metal has a vastly higher thermal conductivity than the various sTIM compositions used in the industry. Of more interest, however, is that both the PCB and the die are thicker with the Core i9-9900K compared to the Core i7-8700K, and lapping the die to reduce thickness by a few microns also does a lot to lower the CPU temperatures relatively. Overall, Intel have still done a good job using sTIM- especially compared to how it was before- but the current state of things means that we have a slightly better stock product with little scope for improvement within easy means to the consumer.
As it turns out, there are a few things involved here. For one, replacing sTIM with Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut (Der8auer has a financial interest in the company, but he does disclose it publicly) alone improves p95 average load temperatures across all eight cores by ~9 °C. This is to be expected given that the liquid metal has a vastly higher thermal conductivity than the various sTIM compositions used in the industry. Of more interest, however, is that both the PCB and the die are thicker with the Core i9-9900K compared to the Core i7-8700K, and lapping the die to reduce thickness by a few microns also does a lot to lower the CPU temperatures relatively. Overall, Intel have still done a good job using sTIM- especially compared to how it was before- but the current state of things means that we have a slightly better stock product with little scope for improvement within easy means to the consumer.
75 Comments on Intel Core i9-9900K De-lidded, Soldered TIM Outperformed by Liquid Metal
I will not say TIM or soldered TIM is the 'best' solution, but both solutions are fine. We have virtually NO stories of Intel CPUs getting fried. Thát is a metric Intel uses. Not the wishes of some wannabe CPU experts on a forum.
What I ám seeing: Intel needs to push Core harder and harder to keep up on the current node. The thermal issues with these CPUs only started with Kaby Lake's 7700K. And only with a ton of vCore on it. Kaby Lake is also the first gen that comes with notably higher base and turbo clocks for these CPUs. There is only one possible outcome: these CPUs will be running hotter
Then came Coffee Lake, with increased core counts ánd increased base and turbo clocks. Now, Intel clocks them almost to cap right out of the box. The headroom is shrinking rapidly, and again, the only possible outcome is a hotter CPU. And then, 9th adds another few hundred mhz and 2 cores. Boy, I wonder what'll happen.
I don't see artifical limitations from Intel. I'm seeing an architecture that is stretched to the max, with higher quality (core count) parts moving lower down the stack and clocked higher out of the box. Intel needs bigger, more functional CPUs from a wafer and the requirements for quality go up. The variance is as much in the thermal solution as it is in the quality of the CPU itself, simply because all parts are stressed.
Sorry, I like checking out specs - seeing what others are running. :)
There's a new historical statistics chart from SL went up like two days ago.
Here's the link:
siliconlottery.com/pages/statistics
I thought you liked reading, you suck at it, apparently :D
Which ironically is also exactly what I am seeing when it comes to these topics. Very selective cognitive abilities. Unable to process that 1.4V across 6 cores will suffer from heat. Unable to realize that this heat is happening on ever smaller spaces as the nodes get smaller... and so on.
Not getting into a "your volts are too high" argument. lol
Never question a member of the forum tribal elders. Reverse and cyclical logic will always prove him correct. Pardon me. :p
but to me soldered lid or not the 9900K is doing exactly what i would expect it to.. running f-cking hot when all 8 cores are working.. as for the soldered lid.. intel did this because they had to.. this chip is at its limits heat wise.. just like my 8700K chip is.. end of the line.. he he..
it also got bugger all to do with bad soldering those that think it is are just away with the fairies.. :)
trog
Truth is, 9900K is once again a poorly made product. And people are paying a premium of twice as much for that 16%~ higher FPS at 720p and a Processor that can double as a heating element for a blast furnace^^
Only issue is fragility (maybe, since PCB and copper is thick it might be actually fine, within reason).
I was only jumping in and trying to help.
Making the assumption (maybe I'm wrong) that no one would voluntarily run an 8700K at 4.8Ghz as a daily – unless they were stuck and needed a simple overclocking guide to move forward.
I only thought these 8700K overclocking steps below might get you to 5.0Ghz or beyond, depending on your chip.
Peace brother! :)
1-Ai Overclock Tuner to XMP, then select NO to all core enhancement in the Notice window. Apply by saving out of bios and reboot back into bios and make sure your memory is running at your individual memory's XMP settings, in Asus bios that information is located at the right side information bar
2-Asus Multicore Enhancement to Disable
3-AVX Instruction Core Ratio Negative Offset to 3
4-CPU Core Ratio to Sync All Cores and 1-Core Ratio Limit Multiplier to 50 (for the first 5.0GHz overclock attempt). Scroll down and all 6 Cores Ratio Limit will change to 50
5-CPU SVID Support to Disable
6-Drop into External Digi+ Power Control (opens a new window) Set CPU Load-line Calibration to Der8auer says 5 or 6, I used 5. (5 seemed like a more conservative number than 6 LOL)
7-ESC out of Ext Digi+ Pwr Cntl back to the Extreme Tweaker window, select Internal Digi+ Power Control this time (opens a new window) and set Long Duration Power Limit to 55555 (4095) and Short Duration Power Limit to 55555 (4095)
8-ESC out of Int Digi+ Pwr Cntl back into the Extreme Tweaker window and set CPU Core/Cache Current Limit Max. to 55555 (255.50)
9-Min CPU Cache Ratio to 42 and Max CPU Cache Ratio to 42
10-BCLK Aware Adaptive Voltage set to Disable
11-CPU Core/Cache Voltage to Manual, and for CPU Core Voltage Overide type in the value 1.350volts for your 8700K/8086K that should be good for the first 5.0Ghz overclocking run.
12-Go into Asus Overclocking Profile and save your settings in Profile 1 (if you wish). Then APPLY all these settings SAVE OUT of bios and boot into Windows
Der8auer translated to English.
I know that power consumption is exponential past a certain point, but given intel's ability to clock in the past, such high power consumption is really off, and that high usage would explain the high temps. 250 watt from such a small die is going to be a PITA to cool no matter what.
Liquid metal obviously conducts better than solid metal, in every situation
intel chips will clock higher they just hit a heat barrier.. its end of the line..
trog
for example the Liquid Ultra is gallium based and will destroy aluminum surfaces but most of these disadvantages are no problem for entusiasts .
That said, yes, you could make the solder liquid too... at a very hot temp that would wreck your cpu...
And it gets even more strange when you consider 'we'd rather not use AVX' because that'd cost us 100 mhz as well. So fuck stability, 5 Ghz or teary eyes. The entitlement generation in a nutshell - oblivious to circumstance and 'must have what others have'. And when that somehow doesn't work out, the world is to blame. No need to look at your own OC, blame Intel and everyone else :D
but in the strange world of the red and green teams the 10% does not apply.. the winning team artificially clocks its products down to just keep in front of the team that is struggling to keep up.. here we get the good overclock which isnt really an overclock its just running the product at a speed its really capable of..
amd are still struggling to keep up but on the more core front they are in front.. more slower speed cores at a good price.. they have rattled intels cage enough to push them into the more cores race.. the snag is adding more cores whilst still keeping the higher core speed simply generates more heat.. they cheat by only boosting one or two cores to the claimed boost speed but over clockers want all cores running at the same higher speed.. the end result is pretty obvious the f-cking things get too hot..
all we are seeing here is intel are no longer clocking down (cruising) just to stay in front they are now having to try hard to stay in front.. the days of easy 30% overlcocks on intel chips are well and truly over.. it kind of reminds me of the old P4 days.. :)
there are pros and cons.. on the one hand we are getting an honest performing product out of the box but on the other hand there is no false overclock on the top end chips.. unless one buys the 9600K.. which isnt the top end chip but for gamers and overclockers at the new higher price levels its the one to buy.. he he..
for gamers and overclockers the 9900K is a fail..
trog
ps.. the winning team under clocking their products also has the advantage of not making the losing team too silly.. making them look to silly makes them try harder which in the end ups the anti for both teams.. nether team wants that.. its all a bit of a con and always has been..
This is because the liquid damages any surface, it is less reactive against nickel plating but it does degrade over time, the same for copper that absorbs it.
but again for enthusiasts, is no big deal since people change their hardware every 2-3years.