TesterAnonCould have been nice cards, but with that price they are DOA.

DOA is a bit of an odd statement, faster then an RTX2060 and thus also a bit more expensive, it makes sense.
The sad thing is that this is an opportunity of AMD to move gaming along, deliver slighter better performance at a lower price point and boom, no brainer sales.

as is, its fine but no more interesting then what Nvidia has been offering for a while now.

HD64GCompetition lowers the prices, not wishes. Be real people.

^^^ This.

The good news is that there actually will be competition... and AMD might even be able to make a profit... meaning there will be more competition in the future.

WavetrexJoke all you want.
Mid-range has been creeping up continuously for the past 5-7 years or so. (Actually, all GPU prices creeping up)

Today = Same size of silicon as 5 years ago, but double+ the price.

So looking at my foggy crystal ball:
- "Mid-range" videocard in 2025 ... $799-$1199
- "High-end" videocard in 2025 ... $1499-$3999
...
- "Low-end" videocard in 2025 ... $399 (cheapest card possible)

If this insanity continues, this is where we'll be. And (almost) everyone seems to be okay with it.
Ridiculous.

So inflation...... I remember paying less than a dollar a gallon for gasoline, or two little pieces of candy for a penny.

jcmit.net/memoryprice.htm

But I'm pretty sure no one is forcing anyone to buy ram that is significantly cheaper than it was just 10 years ago.

To get the same performance years ago it would have cost significantly more than now.

As to price AMD/RTG can sell every bit of 7nm production TSMC can deliver. AMD/RTG have to share/divvy those 7nm CPU/GPU starts base on what sells and where they have best margins, which they're all priced to make a return for AMD/RTG and an not impede distribution of their respective channels or EoL offerings..

Once TSMC can really open-up and fully provide to AMD/RTG, especially now that Nvidia is seen as "second string" player at the foundry given their "bài bài la" to TSMC and their moving to Samsung. Just means more openings for AMD/RTG wafer starts. Once we see that tipping point AMD/RTG will have more leeway to get in and price aggressively (which we all know they do). If Polaris can be sold with 25% reduction I can see why once AMD/RTG is over the initial market surge and production levels, prices will make folks take notice. I could think by Black Friday a RX 5700 could see a $330 price.

Forget Nvidia if they keep to their same-old playbook, Navi will bring the influx of sales and margins soon enough, good place to be.

Radeon team: Oh noes the shroud is dented, what should we do?
Lisa Su: *enters the room* *examines the ruined prototype* I like it. Send it for production
Radeon team:

SteevoSo inflation...... bla bla bla bla

Let's compare mid-range card from 2012 from AMD with mid-range card from 2019 from AMD, okay ?

2012 - www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-hd-7770-ghz-edition.c308 - Launch Price 159 USD
2019 - Radeon RX 5700 - Launch Price 379 USD

That's an 138% markup on a mid-range card in 5 years.



11%
Inflation eh ?

Why people are defending these greedy corporations, I have no idea. The level of insanity in the world is reaching stratospheric levels.

Wavetrex2012 - www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-hd-7770-ghz-edition.c308 - Launch Price 159 USD
2019 - Radeon RX 5700 - Launch Price 379 USD

I not so much arguing the price/inflation debate but that a HD 7770 wasn't mainstream at that point I would classy that at almost "entry". I think the comparison of then and now is with the HD 7850 Pitcairn launched (2012) at $249; into today monies that's a $280 price.

CasecutterI think the comparison of then and now is with the HD 7850 Pitcairn launched (2012) at $249; into today monies that's a $280 price.

Well, fine then.
$249-> $379 = 52% increase, so 40% more than "Inflation".

What will happen next ? Well, nGreedia can continue to jack up prices, and AMD will then follow, because why not ?
Cartels are illegal, btw...

What's surprising is that the reference RX 5700 XT is being promoted as an Aluminum Alloy cooler shroud, and from what little I can see those ridge lines are not stamped. Looks almost to be a cast part, which is a fairly intricate/dainty/elegant part to create in a injection die cast process. I would hope to hear more on that.

WavetrexWhat will happen next ? Well, nGreedia can continue to jack up prices, and AMD will then follow, because why not ?
Cartels are illegal, btw...

And yes it's been out of bounds/outrageous for a while. Seeing when RTX 2060 came out many AIB's had priced even smurf PCB, generic cooler/plain-Jane offerings at a premium. Still given the lowly de-contented construction delivered people paid up. Now we see many 2060's doing codes/discounts and/or rebates to get such price back in range. I would wait and see if Radeon AIB's will really present quality coolers, PCB/VRM (dare I say OC'n) that a $350-380 price-point should bestow.

BTW - AMD/RTG is not a charity! And now on a cutting edge process! They've sat back and been patient in their past/place, now they're shaking off that old stigma and this is what competition looks like. I'm willing to let them build a head of steam and see how they run with it.

WavetrexWell, fine then.
$249-> $379 = 52% increase, so 40% more than "Inflation".

What will happen next ? Well, nGreedia can continue to jack up prices, and AMD will then follow, because why not ?
Cartels are illegal, btw...

For how much more performance? A cartel of video card manufacturing I'm sure to some that sounds reasonable, but it sounds like a conspiracy theory about a company that hates making money so much for their products they didn't bother doing so for how many years?

We aren't talking vacuum cleaners here, there are Billions of transistors in a new 7nm process, with 8GB of GDDR6 and new display outputs, a redesigned video section. This isn't a bar drink, cup of coffee, or scrambled eggs, they at least spent the afternoon designing it....

If you don't like it, don't buy it, anything is worth what the buyer will pay. If they don't sell then you were right, if the do, you are wrong. I think they are going to sell, but I will wait to see how they perform and if the extra features tens of thousands of hours spend creating are worth it to me.

DeathtoGnomeslooks like the same loud ass blower design.

Tech Jesus said they've limited the noise output to 43db on Navi, which is way better than their old blowers.

DristunBut what's the point of dropping 500$ on a video card and then not maxing settings in-game.
Whatever, it's a reference card anyway, Sapphire will make a good one like they always do.

Actually my opinion is that these cards performs well quality wise with optimized settings, don't feel that pushing them harder would have contributed to the overall experience. I have the impression that many gamers pushes their GPUs without benefitting from it. I have a lot of GPUs, also Nvidias, so maybe I will pass on this generation, but I am interested in testing all those new features that was announced.

Manu_PTWake me up when we have a GPU that is not competing against a 2015 GPU zzzzzzzzzzzzz

Same old excuse, whenever AMD launchese a gpu.

MetroidThis blower design is good if < 150w, if > than 150w then I'm against it. AMD might have improved how it works, that is yet to be seen.

Aren't you guys are worshinping blower design 10 months ago when Nvidia had them even on 250W+ cards. All on sudden blower becomes bad!! :rolleyes:

WavetrexThese should have been $249 and $199 cards. Would sell like hotcakes.

AMD tried that in past, but their card didn't sold like hot cakes.

IceShroomAMD tried that in past, but their card didn't sold like hot cakes.

I might quantify that a little, they sold like hot-cakes... just to cryptocurrency miners.

I honestly like the design of the XT ofc, since the normal one is pretty much the same we saw with old cards. I didn't see them talking about consumption, that's what i'm worried about, performance should be decent, above 2070 is good for mainstream market, and prices look decent too. It's underwhelming that they need to go a node lower to compete with nvidia tho, and their supposedly new RDNA arch doesn't seem to help that either.

SteevoFor how much more performance? ... random bla bla.

So every time there's a performance increase it must be matched with a corresponding price increase ?
By this logic, we should pay several million dollars for a GPU by now, as today's GPUs are probably over 10000 times faster than an S3 Virge or Matrox Mystique.

You've been brainwashed by the marketing "We have so much moar transistors cr4p in this chip and it's faster, so it MUST be more expensive"

That's not how it works dude.
Faster new gen replaces slower old gen, for same amount of money (+/-). That's how performance is pushed across the board...

But today what we have is a duopoly with a strong Cartel smelly odor... and no more crypto boom to blame.

Let's say that NV had their raytracing bs excuse for jacking up prices.
But what's AMD's excuse ? They aren't giving anything new... just a node shrink a bit more Mhz.
The chip itself is smaller. It should be CHEAPER than Polaris, not more expansive.

I hope the market punishes them by nobody buying these... but that's not happening because people do want faster GPUs, and there's just no choice anymore.

Overpriced or Overpriced. Take your pick.
Bleh...

Normally a company would up performance and drop price that's what we've come to expect (right/wrong). Let's say RTG has provided 15% more than a Vega 64, and that price is 10% lower... At least both are in the right direction... But yeah not what we would have been historically bestowed by a Radeon card. Maybe Moore's Law we've gotten spoiled?

I'm bidin' my time until the NDA/Reviews give a full picture. In the meantime reading the RTX 2070 Founders Edition Review discussionand honestly looking at how 3 pages of respondents received that Factory Reference card for $600, a reference RX 5700 XT at $449 is more what those comments "at that time" clamored for.

Ngreedia aren't a charity either, let's be thankful AMD have turned up with something new-ish.

WavetrexSo every time there's a performance increase it must be matched with a corresponding price increase ?
By this logic, we should pay several million dollars for a GPU by now, as today's GPUs are probably over 10000 times faster than an S3 Virge or Matrox Mystique.

You've been brainwashed by the marketing "We have so much moar transistors cr4p in this chip and it's faster, so it MUST be more expensive"

That's not how it works dude.
Faster new gen replaces slower old gen, for same amount of money (+/-). That's how performance is pushed across the board...

But today what we have is a duopoly with a strong Cartel smelly odor... and no more crypto boom to blame.

Let's say that NV had their raytracing bs excuse for jacking up prices.
But what's AMD's excuse ? They aren't giving anything new... just a node shrink a bit more Mhz.
The chip itself is smaller. It should be CHEAPER than Polaris, not more expansive.

I hope the market punishes them by nobody buying these... but that's not happening because people do want faster GPUs, and there's just no choice anymore.

Overpriced or Overpriced. Take your pick.
Bleh...

Never said that, but thanks for the straw.

My Cirrus logic card back in the day with its whopping 2MB of video memory sure didn't hardware accelerate and sharpen videos..... Cars also didn't used to have A/C. Why aren't cars getting cheaper, they only used to cost bla bla bla.

If you don't understand market dynamics, supply and demand, investment cost, profit and loss I feel bad for you son, maybe Venezuela offers an answer you seek.

WavetrexSo every time there's a performance increase it must be matched with a corresponding price increase ?
Faster new gen replaces slower old gen, for same amount of money (+/-). That's how performance is pushed across the board...
But today what we have is a duopoly with a strong Cartel smelly odor... and no more crypto boom to blame.

Man, I hope we get a duopoly! It's been more like a monopoly for several years.

AMD is apparently so "greedy" they almost went bankrupt. And even lately they've had to sell cards for much smaller margins than Nvidia. If they get in a pricing war with Nvidia to try and gain back market share too fast, they will lose... and then we'll have a monopoly again.

dj-electricThat dent on the XT model just ruins the design.
What a horrible fking decision on the design part.

That looks hella great IMO. I also liked the looks of 8800 Ultra's cooler back in the day.

rruffAMD is apparently so "greedy" they almost went bankrupt. And even lately they've had to sell cards for much smaller margins than Nvidia. If they get in a pricing war with Nvidia to try and gain back market share too fast, they will lose... and then we'll have a monopoly again.

I'm going to ask that someone else make sense of this.... :kookoo: Or, I misses the Sarcasm?

CasecutterI'm going to ask that someone else make sense of this.... :kookoo: Or, I misses the Sarcasm?

The greedy part is sarcasm. That's why it's in quotes.

rruffThe greedy part is sarcasm. That's why it's in quotes.

OK, now I see the message in that... blame it on the morning. :oops:

WavetrexSo every time there's a performance increase it must be matched with a corresponding price increase ?
By this logic, we should pay several million dollars for a GPU by now, as today's GPUs are probably over 10000 times faster than an S3 Virge or Matrox Mystique.

You've been brainwashed by the marketing "We have so much moar transistors cr4p in this chip and it's faster, so it MUST be more expensive"

That's not how it works dude.
Faster new gen replaces slower old gen, for same amount of money (+/-). That's how performance is pushed across the board...

But today what we have is a duopoly with a strong Cartel smelly odor... and no more crypto boom to blame.

Let's say that NV had their raytracing bs excuse for jacking up prices.
But what's AMD's excuse ? They aren't giving anything new... just a node shrink a bit more Mhz.
The chip itself is smaller. It should be CHEAPER than Polaris, not more expansive.

I hope the market punishes them by nobody buying these... but that's not happening because people do want faster GPUs, and there's just no choice anymore.

Overpriced or Overpriced. Take your pick.
Bleh...

As a general rule I'd agree with you, the problem is that the tech industry is reaching a saturation point of sorts where all the low-hanging fruit in terms of I/O and bandwidth has been exploited, requiring more and more expensive and exotic solutions to increase performance. PCIe 1.0 and 3.0 have essentially the same board designs. Sure, 3.0 is likely more strict in terms of trace routing, but it wasn't much of a challenge. USB hit this early (1.1 and 2.0 used the same cables; 3.0 doubled the pins, 3.1G2 doubled this again. 4.0 will likely follow the TB3 limitation of maximum 1-1.5m cables.). Memory is still scaling decently, but HBM and similar solutions show that there's a need for more bandwidth that can't be met with traditional trace layouts. There's definitely a question of if and how much DDR5 will drive up motherboard prices given the doubling of transfer speeds. The same things are happening on a smaller scale in chip design, in particular with the constant addition of more stuff to each product, from encode and decode blocks to supporting new I/O standards to the push for more fixed-function hardware (RTRT and so on) - these are pure additions, not just scaling up of what we already have, meaning that you'd need very good area scaling on a new node that is also affordable for this not to drive up the BOM.

All this sadly necessitates price increases to a certain degree. Adding more components (in various senses of the word) will always cost more than replacing components with better-performing like-for-like upgrades. Then there's not only inflation (which is rather trivial on time scales like these) but also other cost increases - after all, one of the necessities of a capitalist "eternal growth" system is that wages and costs rise in lockstep (otherwise you'd run out of potential new customers for your goods), meaning that price increases (at least for consumer goods) normally outstrip inflation alone.

Does this legitimize the price hikes we've seen over the past two generations? No. They're excessive, and significantly so. But some increase is to be expected.